Was Latra Posae Decume a Darkfriend/Forsaken

[Valinthros]

Well it's the best analogy I could think up, and I prefer it over some others that were posted. Until somebody posts a better one, that's how I'm viewing it.

 

Fair enough Silver.  ;)

[Lille]

For all we know, Lews Therin and Latra could have been great friends, because at the least they were respected colleagues on the same side after all. She may have wanted to block the attack in order to save her friends who would go because of desperation. A colder view would be that she saw it as a terrible waste to risk over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light has on a crap shot.

 

If she would have agreed to his plans, they wouldn't have risked over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light had, they would have risked the lives of 13, 6 males and 7 females.

 

 

 

Tip of the Day: Go read The Strike at Shayol Ghul. It has alot of info regarding what happened.

 

It's speculated that you can expand links with men and women beyond thirteen.

 

No way would they strike at Shayol Ghul with just 13.

 

 

You are wrong. Let me quote:

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven “focus points” (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force—so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day—a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul, the one place on earth where what has been called “a thinness in the Pattern” makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

This is from "The Strike at Shayol Ghul"

 

I repeat: Go read The Strike at Shayol Ghul. Lots of relevant information there.

 

 

EDIT: Seems someone already quoted this, but wth i'll leave it here anyway.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple of things that seem to have been overlooked in the general fooforah here:

 

mudassir made a very good observation with his reference to Egwene exploring the shield around Callandor.  Since this is the only male/female cooperative work we get to explore in any detail, the seamlessness of the shield seems important with respect to the original plan for the sealing.

 

One data point doesn't make anything conclusive, but it is suggestive that there wouldn't have been the kind of gap, seam, whatever that permitted the backblast and taint.  IOW, it seems more likely that neither half of the Source would have been tainted than that both would have been.

 

RAND asked whether men can form circles.  No, they cannot.  A woman has to initiate the circle.  Only after the circle has been formed may a man take over and lead if his are the most appropriate skills for the task.  In the case of a link of one male and one female, the woman again must initiate, but the man must lead.  There may be other configurations where a man must lead, as well, but the link of two is the only one I'm sure about.

 

Pages 23-25 of the BWB contain what we've been told about circles and linking.

[Snowy Dawn]

``It's like saying that the Nazi's are at fault for WWII. How easy is it to say that? Too easy. Too simplistic. There's more to it than just that.''

 

Justice Robert Jackson: ``The Germans are not being punished for losing the war, they are being punished for starting it'' :-) :-)

 

But of course, they did not start the Pacific War, which began, more or less, before Hitler came to power, viz. with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, which was followed by the invasion of China in 1937, and then the strike at Pearl Harbor.

[Jonn]

hi'

whenever i open my big mouth i get bitten but that never stopped me in past so now will be no different see i m currently re reading the series so i have got a different  opinion    remember egwene trying to penetrate shield around callandor it was a continuous wall parts of which she could identify while others she didn't so here is what i think that 113 companions were like 113 strong bulls tied to ropes of saidin but a sly one can slip through and leave its refuse in the pool of saidin behind them but 13 male and female aes sedais together would have been like that wall in egwene's dream impenetrable so in my humble opinion if FC hadn't taken place we would have got no story and there was no chance of saidar getting tainted so my vote LPD was a df or worst because she was the one who refused to join LTT

 

This is actually one of the simplest arguments I've read in this thread and not surprisingly one of the most compelling. Very nice.

 

Let's get to particulars then.

I have a problem assigning blame to any one person for the course of events leading to any pivotal moment in history, real or fictional.

 

Valinthros: You want to know what my stance is? Skepticism. I'm skeptical of people who have decided the character of a person based on little evidence of character. Circumstance can change the aspects of one's character, and anyone on the outside looking in can mistake circumstance with the actual truth.

In absence of the truth, I tend to be open concerning circumstance and skeptical of making leaps in judgment.

 

The question was whether or not she was a darkfriend. I say no. The next topic turned into whether or not she is to blame for the Breaking and again I say no.

 

My reasoning isn't hard to decipher.

 

If you want to know whether I think Lews Therin is to blame, the answer is again, no. It's too simple to say that. There are many factors involved and to blame it on either Lews Therin or Latra Posae, while trying to exclude the other, absolving...this is foolish, and as I said before, too simple an approach lending towards bias.

 

Finally, if I was driving a car and got rear ended, it would be my fault if I didn't have the proper insurance to cover the damage, regardless of who was at fault.

 

I mean, we could go into the argument that car insurance is a big special interest scam that's perverted the execution and intent of traffic laws, but then again that's the big picture. We're not interested in that. ::) ;)

 

Lille:

 

Women can form circles by themselves up to 13. Men, it is theorized by contemporary Aes Sedai, may expand these circles beyond that. Lews Therin's scheme called for a circle of men and women numbering 13, not excluding the possibility that the circle could be expanded beyond that. 13 total was his magic number, the minimum he would want to use to form the sealing circle. The soldiers would be used as pawns, and if everything went well in securing support for the plan, indeed, more Aes Sedai could have participated on the strike for protection similar to what Rand had going when he cleansed Saidin. The fact that Lews Therin brought so many men was most likely due to the fact that without being able to link, the casualties were expected to be high if not 100%. Brining many Aes Sedai ensured that should a good number of them be killed upon initial contact, there would be enough Aes Sedai to complete the sealing. Surely this was probably applicable had the female Aes Sedai agreed to go. Imagine needing 6 women to complete the link and only bringing 6. What happens of two of them get killed? Your plan is screwed.

It's logical that you should bring more Aes Sedai than you actually need for the task just in case. This solves the problem of why Lews Therin couldn't find even 6 women to go with him. He probably could find 6, but he'd need more than 6 to agree, and they must have the proper strength, so that if they suffer the projected casualties, they will have enough to finish the objective.

 

You need more than 13.

 

Bob:

You could be sexist and not even realize it. In fact, some might consider that one of the prerequisite characteristics of being truly sexist.

 

When I say Latra's misgivings were valid, it has nothing to do with whether or not she is a woman. I believe her misgivings were valid because Lews Therin's plan was risky, crazy even. The fact that he sealed the Dark One doesn't make up for the fact that he had no contingency should something like the tainting occur. And this is why we cannot look on the sealing as a success. And consequently it lends credence to Latra's misgivings. One can base their decisions upon a fear and still be right.

 

It's rather masculine isn't it to not accept fear? Fear is natural. Fear is useful. Fear tells us that maybe we shouldn't try to make friends with that polar bear, because it might eat us. Fear tells us that maybe we shouldn't play Russian roulette, because the gun might kill us.

 

Hmm, a mission with a 50% casualty projection with no guarantee of success? Should I feel fear about this proposal? Naw, I don't see why.

 

As for my comments on sexism, and that somehow making me sexist...Imagine someone being racist, just saying racist things, offhand comments and suggestions, some disguised insults in the form of "jokes". The attitude is supposedly playful, and then someone takes it a step further, and it starts going to the extremes.

If one person says, please dial it back or more directly, "stop being racist". How ridiculous does it sound when that person is accused of being racist themselves, because the minority being attacked supposedly doesn't need that person's help?

That's a BS argument, Bob.

 

If I feel that female characters are being overly-vilified, I'm going to say so and if that makes me sexist, hey, maybe we don't share the same "sense of humor". Seriously, we probably don't share the same values Bob, but that's alright.

 

Hopefully my perspective is tolerable if not completely understood.

 

Silver:

Your misgivings about the big white book. I've always thought that about the BWB. It being written by someone other than Jordan, it's publication over ten years ago, multiple editions released with more proposed to "catch up" to the later volumes. Also the fact that a definitive encyclopedia is planned to be published by Harriet herself post series, lends to the contention surrounding the book. I'm not really convinced that it's totally reliable as canon for the series. Much like Christopher Tolkien's work on Tolkien's notes posthumously, there is the sense that notes about a series that was still in the process of being written are not hard copy, but elaborations of outlines predating the final publication.

I understand that Jordan is listed as editor for the book, but honestly, I can't picture a scenario where he could devote the necessary time to oversee this side project, and complete his other obligations, namely the writing of the 8th book, editing of said book, promotions, and afterward the planning of the next book, Winter's Heart.

 

Ultimately, though it is entertaining and worthy of being collected by fans, I can't totally trust a "guide" for a series that hasn't been completed, and was in fact more than a decade away from true fruition at the time the guide was published.

 

One last thing about how Latra reacted to the situation. Just as Lews Therin couldn't know his plan would end up the way it did, Latra could not truly know what would happen to her plan. It's a clear case of both parties refusing to support one another, therefore both plans met with failure.

Lews Therin failed to seal the Dark One permanently as planned without Latra's support.

 

Latra failed to recover the access keys in time as planned because of lack of support from Lews Therin.

 

One thing that makes this whole scenario a mcguffin is:

 

If forming a circle of 13 men and women is powerful enough to seal the dark one, why isn't it powerful enough to defeat the Forsaken in battle, who are separated by their individual desires for power?

 

So you see, questions have no answer my friends. Only more f***** questions.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK, Jonn, you bring up some interesting points -

 

With regard to the BWB.  It can't be considered absolute canon with regard to anything covered in the main sequence books.  But it IS canon for everything predating those books.  Jordan never had any intention of later books that visited the AoL or Hawkwing or even the Trolloc Wars.  The outcomes were all known and there'd be no suspense.  So, what is contained in the BWB about those periods of time is all we will ever get.

 

Now we come to where you're almost entirely wrong.

 

You start by assuming that because I ( I'll leave the others who see Latra at fault to speak for themselves ) find Latra Posae at fault for the taint and the Breaking that it's somehow because she's a woman.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  I find Latra at fault because the decisions behind her actions were driven entirely by unreasoning fear.  I'd find the same fault with anyone in her position to influence events who behaved identically.

 

To reiterate - it's the Fateful Concord I oppose.  If Latra had been the one to propose the plan for the Sealing and LTT been the one to create the Fateful Concord, I'd be defending Latra as strongly as I'm now attempting to defend LTT.

 

A couple of relevant passages from the BWB which is the only source we have for information about the War of Power.  ( emphasis added )

By the final years of the war, the Shadow seemed on a path to inevitable victory.  The Shadow was willing to starve or murder much of the population of the conquered territories to enforce its rule, and the forces of the Light could no longer sustain the protracted war.  They were moving toward defeat with increasing speed.  If they were to win, they would have to develop a single decisive offensive that would end the war quickly.

 

... Since precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle including seven women and six men, all well above average strength in the Power, the Concord apparently killed the plan.  Work on the two huge sa'angreal, which would have the form of statues, rushed forward.

 

Then in rapid succession, Sammael overran the area where the access key were being made.  Then before the agents Latra Posae had sent to recover the keys could reach their objectives, Demandred and Bel'al in separate offensives threatened the sa'angreal themselves.  Sam began a new offensive.  The Light was being hard-pressed from all sides.

 

... It was clear that final defeat was at hand; should any of the offensives commanded by Forsaken break through, the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months.

 

... Latra Posae's opposition to the Dragon's plan continued despite these events, and the female Aes Sedai - perhaps in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction - held to their pledge, making a circle impossible.  Lews Therin plainly knew that it would be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access keys to be smuggled out even if the smuggling were successful.  In his view, there was no longer any choice, and he resolved to carry out his initial plan without the women.

 

Unknown to anyone at this point, all of the agents responsible for recovering the ter'angreal had been caught and killed, and the artifacts were scattered widely across areas held for the Shadow.  News of this tragedy was not received until well after events had far outrun anyone's plans.

 

Note that nowhere in any of that is there even a suggestion that LTT opposed any efforts to recover the ter'angreal.  Only that he clearly saw that military events were outrunning the recovery effort and that time had run out.  So, any suggestion that "Latra failed to recover the access keys in time as planned because of lack of support from Lews Therin." is simply entirely baseless.

 

By the point-in-time that we're discussing, it is sensible to consider that all the reasonable and prudent actions to successfully prosecute the war had been tried multiple times - and they were all failing to accomplish the task.  Total and utter defeat was imminent.  It was time to start thinking outside the box.  Time to start making the big bets.

 

LTT made the big bet, and the subsequent history, based entirely on the interpretation of events handed down by surviving female Aes Sedai vilified him for it.

 

How is it, Jonn, that you fail to be outraged at this vilification of LTT, but you see any attempt to point out how the Fateful Concord left him no choice but to do what he did as vilification of Latra Posae?

 

The Concord forced his hand.  Latra Posae initiated and adamantly maintained the Concord despite the reality of imminent destruction.  She was in no way justified in doing so.

 

Those are the simple facts.

 

[Valinthros]

Valinthros: You want to know what my stance is? Skepticism. I'm skeptical of people who have decided the character of a person based on little evidence of character. Circumstance can change the aspects of one's character, and anyone on the outside looking in can mistake circumstance with the actual truth.

In absence of the truth, I tend to be open concerning circumstance and skeptical of making leaps in judgment.

 

The question was whether or not she was a darkfriend. I say no. The next topic turned into whether or not she is to blame for the Breaking and again I say no.

 

My reasoning isn't hard to decipher.

 

If you want to know whether I think Lews Therin is to blame, the answer is again, no. It's too simple to say that. There are many factors involved and to blame it on either Lews Therin or Latra Posae, while trying to exclude the other, absolving...this is foolish, and as I said before, too simple an approach lending towards bias.

 

Finally, if I was driving a car and got rear ended, it would be my fault if I didn't have the proper insurance to cover the damage, regardless of who was at fault.

 

I mean, we could go into the argument that car insurance is a big special interest scam that's perverted the execution and intent of traffic laws, but then again that's the big picture. We're not interested in that. ::) ;)

 

Thank you.

 

-On the note of the car accident, I'm not sure what state you're in, but here, if you hit someone from behind, you're at fault no matter what.  Insurance is inconsequential.  Only the offending person that slammed into the rear end of someone is at fault.  Simple logic, you are always facing forward, thus you have control of how you react to what is in front of you.  There is no reason to follow close enough, at a higher speed or same speed, as the person in front of you that would allow this kind of action.  If you want to argue symantics and say but what if this or that... I've been behind a 6 car pileup, and NOT rear ended the person in front of me.  I was safe and gave plenty of room for the person in front of me.  With that being said, if you chose to follow too closely, the result is the accident in question.  Thus the blame is on the person doing the ramming.  Again, insurance has no validity in blame.  (Just to point out, I do agree on the inflated insurance notion pointed out in your post above.)

 

:D

 

Silver:

Your misgivings about the big white book. I've always thought that about the BWB. It being written by someone other than Jordan, it's publication over ten years ago, multiple editions released with more proposed to "catch up" to the later volumes. Also the fact that a definitive encyclopedia is planned to be published by Harriet herself post series, lends to the contention surrounding the book. I'm not really convinced that it's totally reliable as canon for the series. Much like Christopher Tolkien's work on Tolkien's notes posthumously, there is the sense that notes about a series that was still in the process of being written are not hard copy, but elaborations of outlines predating the final publication.

I understand that Jordan is listed as editor for the book, but honestly, I can't picture a scenario where he could devote the necessary time to oversee this side project, and complete his other obligations, namely the writing of the 8th book, editing of said book, promotions, and afterward the planning of the next book, Winter's Heart.

 

Ultimately, though it is entertaining and worthy of being collected by fans, I can't totally trust a "guide" for a series that hasn't been completed, and was in fact more than a decade away from true fruition at the time the guide was published.

 

Any AOL references, as Bob T Dwarf pointed out, are valid.  These are the events that were covered in other books, and expanded on slightly in the BWB.  As to editing... I can read that in a matter of days.  Devote a week to pointing out discrepancies in what you created and I have the utmost faith that RJ could have sent the fixes back to the writer easily.  The only thing I noticed about the BWB, and this is true also of a few books in general, is the inconsistency of one chapter in the books about linking.  This is when Lanfear, Rahvin, Greandal etc all gathered for their meeting about teaming up.  The statement, which I am unable to quote directly at the moment, was about a male having to control a circle of above 13.  I'm going to dig up this information when I get the chance, so that I can afford proper quote's for you, so dont quote me yet.  I'll have it shortly.

 

To wrap that up, yes, AOL information IS considered cannon.  ;)

 

Last but not least, I typically dont involve myself in sexist discussions for the simple fact that people tend to get a bit excited about it.  I will however, add one comment in here.

 

I have not seen any of this sexism you claim aside from a comment from one other person and yourself. And I'll have to look back through the thread and call it up if you insist, because the only thing I've seen anyone say about it besides defending themselves, is your accusations, and another stating that they've seen it in the series.  As Bob T Dwarf pointed out, and has continued to show, all of the arguement he's been using is simply based on the decisions of the characters, not what sex they are.  Bringing this up and holding it out there only serves to show how sexist SOME people can be.  What was it you said about sexism?  You think one of the rules is that you dont realize you are being sexist?  I would suggest dropping the sexism topic, as it has little bearing on already written content, by someone who cant be here today.  No offense meant, it's just not needed.

 

 

[StringWinder]

Wow, quite a thread y'all got goin' on here...

 

I've read SaSG a few times, and I've been reading this thread, and rereading the first 4 books...

 

Everyone in WoT is someone reborn, right? 

 

In either TDR or TSR, Egwene has a dream where Rand is building a wall between himself and her, saying something like "I can't stop now, it has to be done."

 

Than later she becomes The Amyrlin, or at least one of them.  In charge of many female Aes Sedai.  Maybe soon to be in charge of them all.

 

So far there has been a lot of foreshadowing in the books that Rand is going to have a fundamental disagreement and have to stand up to (or maybe even against) Egwene.

 

I could also put it like this.

 

The Dragon and the Amyrlin are going to have a fundemental disagreement presumably and/or possibly regarding the way to handle the fight against the Shadow.

The Dragon is going to have to ignore the plan/viewpoint/opinion/ of the woman who leads all female AS.

 

Well, one of the things I like to speculate about (just ask, I love to speculate) is if there is a chance that any of the current characters in the series are reincarnations of anyone we have any info about from the past.

 

So thinking of the most circumstantial evidence, I find it more likely that LPD is a previous incarnation of Egwene than a Darkfriend.

 

Not that I really find it entirely likely.

 

But it is a fun little thought.

 

[triadruid]

Joumin's grandfather was 16 when the Strike occured. Joumin was 60 when he left Paarin Disen with the objects of power. Minimum, it was 73 years after the Strike that the scene took place in. Minimum. *We*, and the 3rd Age, recognize the Strike as ending the war. LPD's title is ample evidence that it was not scene as such at the time.

Good catch. I always viewed that scene as occurring during the mid-to-late Breaking, not late-War-of-the-Shadow, which is the only way it makes sense for them to have recovered the ter'angreal. It wasn't the panicked running of a bunch of headless women, certainly.

[Ashaman Kovan]

DF?  I don't think so. Obstinately stupid. You bet.

By that point, yes. When the Choedan Kal were no longer an option, and attempts to make them an option again had failed, and they were running short of time they should have gone with the only remaining plan. Initially, though, when the Fateful Concord was first formed? Not so stupid then. Also, as I mentioned before, had women gone as well, both sides could have ended up tainted. Then we would have a bunch of crazy women running around as well.

 

Well the hole in the DO's prison is sort of deformity of the Wheel and the Pattern right? So due to the fact that Saidin and Saidar are both components that keep the Wheel running, it would almost make perfect sense that to fix the abnormality both powers would be needed. So maybe if the women had joined it would have worked perfectly. Maybe thats the only way it can work? Just my own speculation though.

[Mr Ares]

So maybe if the women had joined it would have worked perfectly. Maybe thats the only way it can work? Just my own speculation though.

Certainly a possibility. We don't really have enough to be sure.

[Ashaman Kovan]

So maybe if the women had joined it would have worked perfectly. Maybe thats the only way it can work? Just my own speculation though.

Certainly a possibility. We don't really have enough to be sure.

 

We sure don't. Butlogically (Ohh damn, i'm turning into and Aes Sedai of the White Ajah lol) that seems much more likely than both sides being tainted. Like I said both powers are needed to turn the wheel and the DO is a stick in the spokes of that wheel. So you see where i'm going.

[sillyman]

"In war there are no right decisions, only necessary ones."

Not sure who said it but it holds true in this situation.

The light was losing, action was needed, LTT acted and for all intents and purposes saved the day. He decapitated the dark and gave the light a chance to re-group.

 

On the sexism point the portrayal of AS in the book, and by extension the general feeling on the board, is not sexist its realistic. If someone was to write a fiction based on the history of the world many could and would claim that men are portrayed in a sexist manner (i.e overly proud, idiotic and utterly foolish.) The fact of the matter is people screw up, especially leaders, to paraphrase Douglas Adams "people are the problem."

 

In my opinion and clearly in RJ's as well any matriarchal or patriarchal society is doomed to failure hence the lopsided portrayal of the matriarchal AS.

 

Just my 2 cents. Love the discussion, sorry if im a bit of topic.

[DemandredFO]

I think se do have enough info to say what would have happened if women had gone along to Shayol Ghul the first time.  The series is about balance, Creator V Shaitan, Saidin & saidar, etc.  Since just men went the DO made a counterstroke and the world is out of balance; Shai'tan has unbalanced the equasion, by tainting Saidin.  If saidin and saidar were both tainted it would tilt further toward Shai'tan.  I believe Saidin and Saidar together could have sealed the prison with no ill-effects.

With all the OP experts in the AOL I would've thought someone realize this and Latra had to know the CK weren't coming back at least not in the time left to to the Light.

[Luckers]

Actually no one predicted the possibility of the taint. The reason everyone was worried about imploying LTT's plan was that there were concerns that the strain of placing seals upon the bore could well rip it open even further.

 

Doesn't make Latra's stern refusal to listen any less stupid. She near doomed the world to a Shadow victory in her pride.

[Jonn]

Actually no one predicted the possibility of the taint. The reason everyone was worried about imploying LTT's plan was that there were concerns that the strain of placing seals upon the bore could well rip it open even further.

 

Doesn't make Latra's stern refusal to listen any less stupid. She near doomed the world to a Shadow victory in her pride.

 

But she didn't.

Neither did Lews Therin really totally defeat the Dark One.

 

I still don't understand why there has to be one person who is more wrong than the other.

 

If there is anything to learn through history it is the fact that there is no such thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. There are actions and consequences that can lead from one to the other, but often times that's seemingly wrong brings about something righteous and vice versa.

Heroes and villains?

Good and evil.

All human moral constructs to help us deal with the world around us.

 

Lews Therin's actions lead to 100+ of the strongest male channelers going instantly insane and started the downslide into the Breaking.

 

Forget about why he had to go alone and whatever reasons, he still went and it still happened. Right or wrong, that's how it turned out.

 

What people like myself find sexist is the insistence that we blame Latra Posae more than Lews Therin. It just seems like a very hateful speech is made about Latra every time this subject is brought up.

 

It's a projection of the hate towards the domineering women that are in the novels as fully fleshed out characters. The backlash is totally predictable, but at times it's almost laughable how many people just fall into hating the female characters who are highly opinionated and as flawed as any other person is.

 

It sometimes does feel like flaws in men are more acceptable than flaws in women.

 

 

[Luckers]

But she didn't.

Neither did Lews Therin really totally defeat the Dark One.

 

I still don't understand why there has to be one person who is more wrong than the other.

 

Ah, John, I didn't make that distinction... i said Latra's refusal to act on Lews Therin's plan after her own became impossible was stupid... and it was--had she succeeded in stoping Lews Therin the Shadow would have won, end of story. In the realms of stupidity thats pretty much at the top. No comparison to Lews Therin there, she was stupid all in her own scale.

 

Beyond that, I think thats a pretty pointless comparison--she didn't destroy the world because Lews Therin acted--we not comparing two seperate things, the one didn't happen because of the second.

 

And presenting Lews Therin as a failure because he didn't single handedly destroy the Shadow seems an unrealistic presentation in its own right. Lews Therin acted desperately in the face of total defeat. There were terrible consequences of that action, and it far from ended the story--but it staved off total defeat by the single greatest evil this world has ever seen and gave humanity 4,000 years to regroup and prepare for a new fight.

 

In my book thats pretty decent.

 

What people like myself find sexist is the insistence that we blame Latra Posae more than Lews Therin. It just seems like a very hateful speech is made about Latra every time this subject is brought up.

 

She wanted to stop the only chance the world had at survival. It's not sexist to think she's stupid because of that--I'd call her just as much of a dumbass if she had a penis.

 

And I'd still absolutely consider her by far more falliable than Lews Therin, even if he had boobies.

 

It's a projection of the hate towards the domineering women that are in the novels as fully fleshed out characters. The backlash is totally predictable, but at times it's almost laughable how many people just fall into hating the female characters who are highly opinionated and as flawed as any other person is.

 

You got that from me calling Latra stupid? Astonishing. Let me say it again, I called her stupid because she nearly doomed the world, and that she didn't succeed was through no fault of hers. Her junk had nothing to do with it.

 

My favourite character is Cadsuane--with the possible exception of Moiraine. So what im saying to you is stop being a prat--people can feel contemptuos of a character without it being because they have girl parts.

[Hybrid]

What people like myself find sexist is the insistence that we blame Latra Posae more than Lews Therin. It just seems like a very hateful speech is made about Latra every time this subject is brought up.

 

Really, you are reading way too much in this.  There is no call to be bringing up attacks on people's characters.  Luckers has a very valid point.  When Lews Therin pulled off the Strike, it was the only remaining option, period.  Yes, it had dire and catastrophic consequences.  But it gave the Light a second chance, the only second chance it had.  If Lews Therin didn't go through with the Strike, sure, there's no insane male channelers.  Likely, there's also no world.  Latra Posae Decume's refusal made sense when the Choedan Kal were still available.  Once that plan was done for, the only thing keeping her from agreeing with him was her stubbornness.  I call that stupidity.

 

Not to mention that the BWB states something to the effect of, "The female Aes Sedai were in the mindset of animals frozen with fear in the path of a boulder rolling down slope."

[Tyrell]

I'm going to have to agree with the rebuttals of sexism and say that I find the attitude where by she is exempt from blame on account of being a female to be offensive and equally sexist. Gender should play no part what so ever, and I've read nothing in this thread to suggest that it is.

 

So far as I am concerned it is very simple - sexism has no part in placing blame on Latra Posae's shoulders. She was wrong to withhold support from Lews Therin when it became obvious that her plan had failed, that the access keys were lost and possibly even fallen into the hands of the enemy and that defeat and with it the freedom of the Dark One and the destruction of the pattern were imminent.

 

That's a fact, that was the situation and that was a choice she made. I don't care if history has been remembered incorrectly and she was actually a man who liked to dress as a woman. She was still wrong, even if she was a he, or a hermaphrodite, I don't give a damn. She was still wrong, wrong and prideful, I can see no other reason than pride that in the face of absolute and complete defeat she would still refuse to cooperate with the last possible hope for... salvation for want of a better word.

 

I have no problem with her initial opposition to Therin's plan, there were concerns about its safety and she was entitled to voice them and oppose him as long as there was an alternative. It seems clear that there was political rivalry between her as a powerful and influential member of the hall of servants and him as the first among the servants and political division is fine and good in peace time, but when THE END OF THE WORLD is staring you in the face then it's time to CUT THE CRAP.

 

Would her plan have worked? We don't know, we'll never know, the Strike at Shayol Ghul doesn't shed any light on the matter, it even asks that very question. And as for the plan, it was, at best just as risky as that proposed by Therin. Erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until we can work out what to do? Sounds great, but wait... the Dark One isn't even fully free yet and the forces of the light are already getting whipped. Erecting a barrier may well cut him off from his forces and the two sa'angreal may well be strong enough to smash his rapidly advancing armies, but he is still getting freer from the bore day by day and indications are that when he gets fully free the world is doomed regardless of his military victory (or lack thereof). At best the plan was a delaying tactic which could put off the inevitable for how long? Months... maybe? Years even... hell if I know. But the question of what to do to actually seal the bore and shut him away from the pattern again would still remain.

 

Yes Lews Therin's plan was risky, yes we know what happened when he attempted it without a linked circle - would that be either just one guy having to do the work of 6 guys and 7 women or 7 men each having to coordinate the positioning and setting of the seals without being linked by the way? Either way it seems like a hell of a lot more difficult than doing it with one unified circle. However Therin and his companions managed it we know the end result - the Dark One's counter-stroke, tainting Saidin with his evil touch which lead to the breaking of the world and over three thousand years of madness for men along with all the suffering that they both entailed. What also happened was that from the brink of final defeat some victory had been gleaned - the Dark One's influence on the world was halted, his armies made leaderless and thousands of years to rebuild and prepare were gained.

[Alderthal]

Even LTT's supporters agreed it was a risky plan however. Apparently, the bore was so tiny, the DO barely managed to stick a finger through it. Even with that little, he managed to change the entire world. LTTs plan WAS risky. Either seal it or allow him to break free completely? That was what Latra Posae Decume had to decide for/against.

 

Sure, after her plan with the sangreal failed, she should've logically pursued another plan. Of course, looking at it from a logical perspective, it'd seem as if there was no other choice.

 

Sadly, in such stressing times, hoping for someone to make a purely logical decision would be extremely unfair. Back then, it was what? a century or so ago that these people didn't even know what war was. The idea of acceptable risks just wasn't something anyone would know.

 

So was Latra Posae a darkfriend? Probably not. Just a woman who has seen her world crumble around her, and who was afraid to take an outrageous course of action that might end up with the world being destroyed completely.

[Emily_Sedai]

I have to admit that I've been pretty interested in this thread as a whole, mainly becuase it is all based on theory as opposed to concrete information that you look up on a certain page of a given book.  I believe I tend to lean more towards John's point of view, with the idea that there was frankly, plenty of blame to go around in terms of the situation. 

 

First off:  We're taking our information from the Strike at Shayol Ghul, a document written by a historian after the breaking, based on a tattered document.  The document supports that the Light was months away from losing the war.  Okay, what kind of document was this?  A history of the world from the drilling of the bore to the breaking.  Who wrote this document?  Was he/she a noted historian?  What were his/her political leanings?  There is too much unknown about the document, and even the author of the findings on the document state their knowledge is based on fragments.  *laugh*  For all we know, this could have been shadow propaganda!

 

Okay, putting all that aside:  To say a side is going to lose a war in a few months is such a broad statement!  There are *entirely* too many factors in a world war to account for every variable out there.  For all of you that support Lews Therin's actions 100%, would you have supported a British desperation attack in WW2 during the height of the battle of Britain?  It looked like they were on the brink of losing the war, and a misstep by the German leadership handed the war right back.  Who could possible have said what would have happened?  Perhaps in the next month, the Shadow is comfortable enough in its victory that the Forsaken begin sniping each other off to make their piece of the pie a bit bigger!  From most indications in the series, the Forsaken at that point seemed to be acting independently of each other, but that is based on my own personal perceptions, and SH's comment that the time to go it alone is over. 

 

(Side note, Deep Space 9 did a great episode about this concept...  in it, a group of genetically engineered super-geniuses calculates that the federation is going to lose the war to the dominion in only a short amount of time..  but if they give up, then the Federation would return after a few generations in slavery and be bigger and mighter than ever, etc, etc...  well, in the end, their plans to betray the federation to end the war quickly are foiled by one, single, person.  During the war, who knows what could have happened in a few months!) 

 

One other note:  For those that say that the female Aes Sedai should have followed Lews Therin because he was a great leader and was strong in the Power:  Let's use another example here, because I feel like it highlights my point:  There is a scene from 'Enemy at the Gates' where a german sniper is discussing the battle of Stalingrad with a commanding officer.  During the conversation, the officer alludes to the fact that he strongly disagrees with the course of action that the furer had set, but his instincts had always been right in the past, so he would follow the orders, even if he could see serious problems with them.  Was he a good officer?

 

I personally give the Latra credit for standing up against something she disagreed with so intensly.  (How many congressmen/women in the US had the courage to do that when declaring war on Iraq before it was unpopular?)  Did history prove that she may have been in the wrong?  Possibly, but that conclusion is using hindsight, something she didn't have access to at the time. 

 

I think the blame should certainly be spread among both parties in this instance.  There simply is *no* way to know who was exactly right and who was exactly wrong. 

 

Anyway, there are my rambling thoughts for the day. 

[Hybrid]

You raise some good points.  To answer your question, I would take action over no action almost every time.  If I had a choice between a risky maneuver and sitting on my butt waiting for my enemy to make a massive blunder, I would take the risky choice 90% of the time.  I would wait for my enemy to make a mistake if and only if that enemy had a history of past mistakes.  Did the Shadow have a history of past mistakes?  No.  They had steadily taken over the world, destroyed the utopian society of the Age of Legends, and recruited some of the most powerful figures of the Light to the Shadow.  Their commanding officer, at the highest level, was the Dark One, an godlike being who is near omniscient and omnipotent if not for the Bore.  Their chief generals, Sammael, Bel'al, and Demandred, were among the Light's finest.  They had Semirhage and Graendal, masters of torture and compulsion, respectively.  They had Moghedien, a master of spying and Tel'aran'rhiod.  They had Lanfear and Ishamael, among the strongest channelers of their respective genders.  They had Aginor, a brilliant scientist responsible for the mass-production of disposable soldiers and minor officers.  In addition, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the Light had made barely any territory advances.  The overall trend was heavily slated towards defeat.  The Light was fighting a losing battle from the start.

 

Initially, Latra Posae Decume had a good point in resisting Lews Therin's plan.  The Choedan Kal have been demonstrated to be much more powerful, and likely more predictable.  However, once that plan was no longer feasible, she should have at least considered Lews Therin's plan.  We don't know how good the Light's special forces/spy teams were, but it is likely that recovery of the access keys would have been near impossible.  I think that her refusal to even listen to Lews Therin's plan was stubborn stupid once matters had developed that no other plans could possibly succeed.

 

I agree, both Latra and Lews deserve some blame for the heavy split in the Aes Sedai.  However, I feel that that difference could have been rectified towards the end of the war.  I don't think Lews Therin deserves blame for the Taint.  His plan worked well enough.  It didn't reopen the Bore.  It sealed it and gave the Light a second chance.  Thanks to Lews Therin's efforts, the Light will likely win now.

[Charlz Guybon]

Also, a general critique:

 

Joumin's grandfather was 16 when the Strike occured. Joumin was 60 when he left Paarin Disen with the objects of power. Minimum, it was 73 years after the Strike that the scene took place in. Minimum. *We*, and the 3rd Age, recognize the Strike as ending the war. LPD's title is ample evidence that it was not scene as such at the time.

 

Therefore, society retained a fair amount of cohesion about a century into the Breaking. Why does this surprise everyone? We're told a goodly part held together for a goodly long time, after all. Perhaps the Aiel departure from Paarin Disen marked the "end of civilization," the destruction of the last remaining bastion of civilization. Perhaps that is why the reference to Tzora mattered. Maybe it was the second-to-last. We are repeatedly told that the fighting continued until survival became too high a priority.

 

:o Wow, I never realized how long the fighting lasted! That's amazing!

[Charlz Guybon]

Joumin's grandfather was 16 when the Strike occured. Joumin was 60 when he left Paarin Disen with the objects of power. Minimum, it was 73 years after the Strike that the scene took place in. Minimum. *We*, and the 3rd Age, recognize the Strike as ending the war. LPD's title is ample evidence that it was not scene as such at the time.

Good catch. I always viewed that scene as occurring during the mid-to-late Breaking, not late-War-of-the-Shadow, which is the only way it makes sense for them to have recovered the ter'angreal. It wasn't the panicked running of a bunch of headless women, certainly.

Well from that information it would seem they overlapped. It is 73 years (out of 239 to 344) into the breaking but the war of the shadow has not yet ended. 

[Charlz Guybon]

You raise some good points.  To answer your question, I would take action over no action almost every time.  If I had a choice between a risky maneuver and sitting on my butt waiting for my enemy to make a massive blunder, I would take the risky choice 90% of the time.  I would wait for my enemy to make a mistake if and only if that enemy had a history of past mistakes.  Did the Shadow have a history of past mistakes?  No.  They had steadily taken over the world, destroyed the utopian society of the Age of Legends, and recruited some of the most powerful figures of the Light to the Shadow.  Their commanding officer, at the highest level, was the Dark One, an godlike being who is near omniscient and omnipotent if not for the Bore.  Their chief generals, Sammael, Bel'al, and Demandred, were among the Light's finest.  They had Semirhage and Graendal, masters of torture and compulsion, respectively.  They had Moghedien, a master of spying and Tel'aran'rhiod.  They had Lanfear and Ishamael, among the strongest channelers of their respective genders.  They had Aginor, a brilliant scientist responsible for the mass-production of disposable soldiers and minor officers.  In addition, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the Light had made barely any territory advances.  The overall trend was heavily slated towards defeat.  The Light was fighting a losing battle from the start.

 

It wasn't a losing battle from the beginning, to quote the guide

 

"The War of Shadow was a seesaw affair. In the first three years, large parts of the world fell under the Dark One's dominion, however indirectly, through human representatives. Over the next four years under Lews Therin's leadership, much of the territory was retaken, though not without reverses. At that point a stalemate was reached which lasted nearly a year. Then the Shadow began to advance again, slowly at first but with increasing speed. According to the unknown writer of the fragmentary historical record, It was as if with every step forward by the Shadow, disorder and chaos grew, and feeding on that, the Shadow gained strength, so that it's next stride was longer, and the next after longer still."