Flying

[Loophole]

I dont think that the power follows the laws of physics.

 

It clearly follows rules, i just don’t believe that it follows the laws of physics as we think of them. Since the power does not physically exist in our world, our ideas of physics could not really cover it adequately. I think RJ did his best to make the power understandable and logical to us. i also think he did a wonderfull job, but some rules we have for our world would have to be modified i think when the power is involved for it to really work.

 

[RAND AL THOR]

A longboat, it was called, a low narrow splinter without any masts, just one staff in the bow, four paces tall, topped by a lantern, and another at the stern. Nearly thirty paces in length and lined with as many long oars, it could not carry the cargo a sailing vessel the same size would, but

it had no need of the wind, either, and with a shallow draft, it could travel day and night, using rowers in shifts. Longboats ran the rivers with cargoes of importance and urgency. It had seemed appropriate.

 

And then:

 

He wondered how much she would trust if she knew that this was as far as he could weave a bridge like this. One pace farther, one foot, and the whole thing would have given way at the first step. At that point it

became like trying to lift yourself with the Power, an impossibility; even the Forsaken did not know why, any more than they knew why a woman, could make a longer bridge than a man even if she was not as strong. It was not a matter of weight; any amount of weight could cross any bridge.

 

From what Luckers is saying, are we to understand that IF the boat had been very very small (Say a 3 seater rowboat) and if 20 people had ascended the bridge at once, the boat would have capsized and the bridge collapsed?

 

About the physics idea: One very obvious aspect of the Power is the saidin/saidar interaction where they work with each other as well as against each other. There is no physical quantity in the world that does this. We have either attraction OR repulsion buy not both at once.

 

I'm with Elgee on this one. I havn't seen any distinct proof that the power follows the rulse of physics. And if so, to what extent? Theoreticaly light cannot be bent (except by ultra-huge heavenly bodies with a huge gravitational force) and yet we see Asmodean 'bending' light. Hmm.

 

[JenLenaMom]

Theoreticaly light cannot be bent (except by ultra-huge heavenly bodies with a huge gravitational force)

 

This is flatly untrue.  Light bends all the time, it's called refraction, its what a prism does when it makes a rainbow.  It's why the sky is blue.  It's why stars appear to twinkle in the night sky.

 

What Asmo did was like placing a large rock in a river, the river diverts around it and comes back together, the light would bend around the person's weave, since what we see is the light reflect back from the object we're looking at, if there is no light striking the person, there is no light to reflect back and we can't see.

 

Notice also that Rand calls it a bridge, meaning it goes from one point to another, if you want to persue this idea of using a platform of power look up the scene when Egwene is raised as Amyrlin.

[Luckers]

From what Luckers is saying, are we to understand that IF the boat had been very very small (Say a 3 seater rowboat) and if 20 people had ascended the bridge at once, the boat would have capsized and the bridge collapsed?

 

It depends on where the bridge was based, but yes, were the bridge to attempt too great a mass it would sink or capsize the boat.

 

About the physics idea: One very obvious aspect of the Power is the saidin/saidar interaction where they work with each other as well as against each other. There is no physical quantity in the world that does this. We have either attraction OR repulsion buy not both at once.

 

What about electromagnetic conduction? They work creating energy by fighting each other--its the very foundation of our society. The 'internal combustion engine' that began the industrial revolution. What of energy induction--the very theory behind it is that in the relation between two forces it induces a third force to occur--this seems to me to be exactly what saidin and saidar do--in fighting each other the energy they produce causes the wheel of time to function.

 

I'm with Elgee on this one. I havn't seen any distinct proof that the power follows the rulse of physics. And if so, to what extent? Theoreticaly light cannot be bent (except by ultra-huge heavenly bodies with a huge gravitational force) and yet we see Asmodean 'bending' light. Hmm.

 

Light can be bent by a prism, refracted by a sheet of glass. It's the basis of optics, and the thing that above anything else sustains the function of our society.

 

And id point out again, RJ cited his background in physics in the nature of the power, stating that he believed that were you to ask an audience to believe in the fantastic you had to ground it in reality--the literary device is called a novum.

[RAND AL THOR]

I should have made myself clearer. By 'bend' I meant curve. I am most certainly aware of reflection and refraction where there is an angle between the incident and reflected/refracted rays. I mean curve.

 

Now in what context would Asmo have used the term 'bend?'

 

What Asmo did was like placing a large rock in a river, the river diverts around it and comes back together, the light would bend around the person's weave, since what we see is the light reflect back from the object we're looking at, if there is no light striking the person, there is no light to reflect back and we can't see.

 

The water in the river would be curving there. Light cannot do that.

 

If we place an object in a beam of light, the object intercepts the light. It does NOT curve around the object. It is not possible to do that. If the Power follows the laws of physics, then the Power should not be able to do that either.

 

Lght travels in straight lines. Also, before someone suggests it, wave-particle duality would not be applicable here.

[Luckers]

I should have made myself clearer. By 'bend' I meant curve. I am most certainly aware of reflection and refraction where there is an angle between the incident and reflected/refracted rays. I mean curve.

 

I'm afraid i dont understand what you mean--lightwaves curve, bend and refract quite eaily. The distinction you are attempting to make escapes me.

 

Now in what context would Asmo have used the term 'bend?'

 

I assume he meant it in that light waves were being bent... a very easy phenomena. All you need to do it is an electromagnetic field (in the same manner as a television), or a reflective/refractive prism.

 

Of course control becomes an issue in creating exact illusions, especially in exactly mimicing the background--which is probably why RJ had rippling.

 

The water in the river would be curving there. Light cannot do that.

 

Yeah it can, it's how annodes work--televisions.

 

If we place an object in a beam of light, the object intercepts the light. It does NOT curve around the object. It is not possible to do that. If the Power follows the laws of physics, then the Power should not be able to do that either.

 

No, we cannot do that. We can curve light, but we cant perfectly cause it to curve around an object--theres nothing in the physical state that makes it impossible, we just don't have the technology to achieve it.

 

Lght travels in straight lines. Also, before someone suggests it, wave-particle duality would not be applicable here.

 

Light does not always travel in straight lines. It is an electromagnetic wave and like all such can be bent or manipulated by electromagnetic fields--its how televisions work. Furthermore, it can be broken and refracted by prisms, thats how optics work.

 

 

[JenLenaMom]

No, we cannot do that. We can curve light, but we cant perfectly cause it to curve around an object--theres nothing in the physical state that makes it impossible, we just don't have the technology to achieve it.

 

We're getting closer though: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12961080/

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Luckers, assumimg that you are talking about the CRT television, no it does not use light bending in any way.

There is actually an electron beam which is directed up/down/left/right using a magnetic field. The electrons striking the screen light up the pixels. Light rays bending are not involved at all.

[Luckers]

You do understand where that began, right? The photoelectric effect? The incitation of electrons into leaping from their medium by being given packets of electromagnetic energy--the ultraviolet catastrophe--the basis of quantum physics... and the sequence of physics that led to the creation of televisions... before quantum its true, but the same basis.

 

There are reasons to look beyond wikipedia, you know.

[RAND AL THOR]

If Light with frequency above the threshold strikes a certain metal then electrons would be emitted-true. But what has the photoelctric effect got to do with the discussion at hand?

 

It is understood that light exists as waves within photons and that the photons travel in straight lines. These rays of light made of photons may be forced to curve (as in arc -not angular bends) by exerting a huge gravitational field.

 

There are reasons to look beyond wikipedia, you know.

 

If this is supposed to mean that I am obtaining the information for this discussion from Wikipedia then you are most certainly wrong there. People do have something called a brain after all.

[Mr Ares]

would they not feel like they were supporting the weight of the person they are lifting with air?

Think of the Power in this instance being akin to a mechanical lifting aid. And there are limits on what a channeler can lift, just as there are on what a rope and pulleys can lift.

true he may have been on the ground, but he wasnt pushing up, but forwards so any bracing would need to be behind him, and he had none.

So you're saying you can't push someone unless you back is against a wall? I have no such restriction *pushes Loophole over*

 

As for not responding until I am civil, I am rarely civil when people repeatedly fail to grasp my point.

Which may mean that your point is not correct to begin with (general statement-not specific to this thread).

False. Has nothing to do with correctness of point, as people are cpable of grasping an incorrect point (and disagreeing with it). Could indicate point is too complex. Unlikely in this instance. Could indicate failure to communicate point properly. Most seem to have grasped it, even if they disagree (plus that would mean that I was less than perfect, and that's just an impossibility). Could indicate failure to read posts correctly. Could indicate person that fails to grasp point is thick (general statement, not specific to this thread). Possibly other options.

 

If this is supposed to mean that I am obtaining the information for this discussion from Wikipedia then you are most certainly wrong there. People do have something called a brain after all.

Where does the information in your brain come from?

[cloglord]

I'll just chime in to say that my attention was directed here as being of possible interest.  I have found this thread to be the one of the most pointless exersizes in intellectual chest thumping I've found in recent memory.  To attempt to prove or disprove the mechanics of a fictitious "magic" system is inherently impossible, and the continued persistence of posters in this thread toattempt to do so is grating. 

 

I'll also add that I found this...

 

As for not responding until I am civil, I am rarely civil when people repeatedly fail to grasp my point.

 

...bit from Mr. Ares to be particularly disapointing.  I fail to see why your failure to make your point clearly enough excuses incivility.

 

To comment specifically on the topic at hand I agree with Elgee that it has not been sufficiently proven that the OP works under understood laws of physics to make any sort of determination.

[Mr Ares]

I fail to see why your failure to make your point clearly enough excuses incivility.

When I make a point, I expect people to know what that point is without the need for ad nauseum repetition on my part. I don't necessarily expect agreement, but I do expect understanding. Making several references to what is possible with your own arms, without the Power, and then being told to "Imagine the flow of air is an extension of your hand - you are picking someone up with that" does not inspire me to civility with people who cannot be bothered to correctly read my posts.

[RAND AL THOR]

Apologies to watermelon head for the thread going so far off-topic.

 

Luckers, I'll stop with this now because neither of us is going to back down and quite frankly there is little purpose in this.

 

And as Cloglord correctly said,

 

To attempt to prove or disprove the mechanics of a fictitious "magic" system is inherently impossible.

[cloglord]

When I make a point, I expect people to know what that point is without the need for ad nauseum repetition on my part. I don't necessarily expect agreement, but I do expect understanding. Making several references to what is possible with your own arms, without the Power, and then being told to "Imagine the flow of air is an extension of your hand - you are picking someone up with that" does not inspire me to civility with people who cannot be bothered to correctly read my posts.

 

That is my point.  If you are trying to make a point, and you have not made it clearly enough then the fault lies with you.  As does the fault for bad behavior.  Only you have control over your actions or reactions, and no matter how dense, irritating, or argumentative another poster is they have no culpability in your decision to be civil or not.  To say otherwise is a cop out.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

One Power Flight Ideas:

 

1 - Practical:

Weave a torus of Air spinning rapidly underneath a fixed horizontal propeller attached to a circular platform.  Adjust rate for vertical control, lean to move around.

 

2 - Awesome:

Summon a ferocious storm.  Weave a large bowl of Air, letting it fill with water.  Close off the bowl, making it a sphere. Call lightning from the storm to strike the bowl over and over again until the water is gone.  Weave a tube onto the bottom of the sphere and siphon out the oxygen.  Close off the sphere again and hop on as the hydrogen lifts you into the sky amidst the thunder and the glory.

 

3 - Unsafe:

Ever play the game Portal?  Weave a Gateway in the floor, with its exit facing the entrance, way up in the air above.  Jump in and cycle through until you reach terminal velocity.  Weave a second gateway with an entrance directly above the original entrance, but this time the exit is angled at 45 degrees in the direction you want to fly.  Bring a hang-glider with you.

 

4:

Brag so hard about your big brain that your head swells to the size of a balloon.  Simply hold your breath, and surely all the hot air will lift you up (sorry, couldn't resist taking a shot at all you wet blankets).

[Bob T Dwarf]

For myself, I will only say that my head fits nicely through every doorway in my house...

 

 

...now that I've suitably modified each of those doorways.  The roof keeps making funny noises... I can't imagine why. ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Summon a ferocious storm.  Weave a large bowl of Air, letting it fill with water.  Close off the bowl, making it a sphere. Call lightning from the storm to strike the bowl over and over again until the water is gone.  Weave a tube onto the bottom of the sphere and siphon out the oxygen.  Close off the sphere again and hop on as the hydrogen lifts you into the sky amidst the thunder and the glory.

 

:o

 

Cool. ;D

[Mr Ares]

Cloglord, for the purposes of debate it is necessary for each side to understand what the other is saying, or else we simply have endless attempts to explain what has already been explained. It is more than a matter of simple courtesy (although it is that as well). If people refuse to take the effort to correctly read and understand what I have written (which is by no means incomprehensible), then I fail to see why I owe them anything in the way of politeness. After all, they have already taken the decision to show me an impoliteness that also means that the debate cannot progress. If I wish to reply to someone, I take the time to work out what they are actually saying. If other people refuse to do that, then why should I choose to be nice to them?

 

<(^-^)>, you missed one obvious method of flight, which doesn't even need the Power. Simply throw yourself at the ground and miss. You only hit the ground because you expect to. If you were distracted at the last minute you wouldn't hit.

[benr]

Hasn't anyone else here seen the "Flying Nun"?  It was an absolutely incredibly bad U.S. TV show from way back; it jump started the career of Sally Field.  If a simple Catholic sister could fly, why not an AS? ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, most of the Aes Sedai we've met so far are certainly empty-headed enough that it might be possible if they wore a big enough hat. :D

[Llewin]

Where does it say that sho-wings---or for that matter jo-cars, etc.---were propelled by the one power? In the AoL both the power and more ordinary means were used as sources of energy. Also, even one of the stronger Aes Sedai (in the power, I mean), male or female, couldn't keep that up for long: using the one power like that is quite tiring, as we are often told in the WoT.

 

Where do you get the idea that the technology in the age of legends was powered by any source other than the OP... Standing flows powered entire cities...not only that but we have seen more than one ter'angreal start using more of the OP than is being directed at it by a channeller (the bowl of the winds and the callbox...) It stands to reason, to my mind, that the same sort of concept would have been used to create ter'angreal for sho'wings, jo'cars...and probably those self-same 'standing flows'

[CUBAREY]

Where do you get the idea that the technology in the age of legends was powered by any source other than the OP... Standing flows powered entire cities...not only that but we have seen more than one ter'angreal start using more of the OP than is being directed at it by a channeller (the bowl of the winds and the callbox...) It stands to reason, to my mind, that the same sort of concept would have been used to create ter'angreal for sho'wings, jo'cars...and probably those self-same 'standing flows'

 

 

 

 

It might help to indicate (for those who have only read the novels and have not read the Big White Book) that the Big White Book includes a discussion about the use of the one power in AOL which includes running, Sho-wings, jo-cars, etc. While the information in the novels may not indicate that the one power was the source of energy used in technalogy in AOL the BWB does.