Flying

[WaterMelonHead]

Why can't the Aies Sedai fly? 

 

It seems to me that sisters should be able to fly in pairs.  If Aies Sedai #1 lifted Aies Sedai #2 into the air and in turn #2 lifted #1 in the air they should be able fly.  Granted #1 would control where #2 went and vice versa but the end result should be the same.

 

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

[bjclinton]

Even the strongest AS can only lift others a few feet in the air- for some reason there is a cap on it. Even they don't understand why.

 

Any benefit to being able to fly would be negated if AS weren't able to fly over things as large as trees, hills, houses, etc. Too many objects would be in their way.

 

Now, if they were able to get up a good 50-100 feet, we're talking about a different story....but unfortunately they can't, so its a moot point for them.  :-\

[Spirit1025]

They can get at least as high as the top of a building. I seem to remember Nynaeve lifting people to a rooftop in Far Madding, when Rand is out to kill the runaway Ashaman there. I forget which book that is...But I have no idea if they can get higher. I would think if it was that obvious, the Aes Sedai would have figured it out and we would have seen it? Still, it's not too practical lol. You'd have to really trust your flying partner!

[RAND AL THOR]

Nice, watermelonhead, I was going to propose the exact same idea!

 

So far, when an AS lifts someone, that someone gets further and further from the AS and there is a limit. I am assuming that the limit is due to the distance increasing between the AS and the person being lifted. Assuming this is true, such a limitation would not exist if two AS lift each other since they will always be near each other.

 

Taking Nynaeve for such comparisons is not a good idea since she is much stronger than most other channelers.

 

But remember than Siuan recalls that she used to be able to lift 3 times her own weight.

I think it should be possible.

[Mr Ares]

What a wonderful idea! Why don't you try it. Get a friend and lift them off the ground. Then, while they are in mid-air, they can lift you up as well! Doesn't work, does it? For the exact same reason, it wouldn't work with the Power.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

That made no sense Ares. You say it is not possible yet there isn't proof to the contrary. Maybe next time you should back up your claim eh?

 

Now back to the point. What is more likely flying is simply not nessecary now that traveling has been "rediscovered".

[Mr Ares]

That made no sense Ares. You say it is not possible yet there isn't proof to the contrary. Maybe next time you should back up your claim eh?

Firstly, it's Mr Ares. Secondly, it made perfect sense. If you disagree, say that you disagree, don't try and write it off as not making sense. Although, if you're too stupid to get my name right, I suppose finding sense where it is stated quite clearly may be too much to ask for. Now, have you tried what I suggested? Why not try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, a la Baron Munchhausen, if no-one else is to hand? It doesn't work. The One Power follows the laws of physics, more or less. You need leverage to lift something, and someone suspended in mid-air has no leverage. And why don't you show me anything that implies that it may be possible? Because there isn't anything. You can't lift yourself, you can't lift someone else while that someone is lifting you. You need a base of some sort to start from. Preferably the ground.

[Elgee]

I don't know if this is possible, but I'll throw the theory out there anyway:

 

What about sitting or standing on something (ie a chair, a board, etc), then lifting that? You would be lifting and moving the object (with yourself in/on it), not yourself.

[RAND AL THOR]

I'm basing my arguement on the following assumption:

When you are off the ground, you do not lose the ability to channel.

 

You lift someone with flows of Air and that someone then lifts you with flows of air. What is the problem in that? There is no evidence that the ability to lift someone with flows of air disappears if you yourself lose contact with the ground.

 

Elgee's suggestion also seems perfectly acceptable. There were flying devices in AoL. Maybe they operated in this way.

 

As for the suggestion that the One Power follows the Laws of Physics........

[Mr Ares]

I don't know if this is possible, but I'll throw the theory out there anyway:

 

What about sitting or standing on something (ie a chair, a board, etc), then lifting that? You would be lifting and moving the object (with yourself in/on it), not yourself.

The problem with the original theory was that it involved two people hanging in mid-air, not supported by anything, not attached to anything, simply pushing themselves up and up despite the fact that they (made big for anyone who still doesn't get it) were not pushing off anything. Now, with what you suggest, Elgee, you need to be pushing off something (the ground). If you can push off hard enough, you could do something akin to a jump. If you pushed a chair you were sitting in off the ground you would hold yourself up as long as you were still pushing off the ground. When you lose contact with the ground, gravity will take its course. You can't just float in complete defiance of gravity. Any method of flight would have the same problem, which is why it is "impossible" - it may be possible, but so difficult as to scarcely be worth it. Big updrafts of wind, perhaps. This is why the AOL AS used flying machines powered by the Power to fly, in much the same way as we use flying machines powered by the power sources we have available to us. So why not just build an aeroplane and use flows of air to spin the propeller?

 

I'm basing my arguement on the following assumption:

When you are off the ground, you do not lose the ability to channel.

 

As for the suggestion that the One Power follows the Laws of Physics........

Yes, the Power does follow the Laws of physics - what do you expect from a magic system designed by a physicist? And I'm basing my arguments off the following assumption: gravity doesn't stop working because you're Aes Sedai (and not even they are arrogant enough to believe that it does. YOU NEED TO PUSH OFF SOMETHING. Someone else hanging in mid-air? Doesn't work in reality, why should it work here?

[Elgee]

You can't lift yourself, you can't lift someone else while that someone is lifting you. You need a base of some sort to start from. Preferably the ground.

 

In Book 2, Siuan lifts Nynaeve, who then lifts Siuan and pins her to the wall - that would be lifting someone who is lifting you.

[Mr Ares]

You can't lift yourself, you can't lift someone else while that someone is lifting you. You need a base of some sort to start from. Preferably the ground.

In Book 2, Siuan lifts Nynaeve, who then lifts Siuan and pins her to the wall - that would be lifting someone who is lifting you.

Don't have my books to hand to check, but is Nynaeve in mid air or just pinned to the wall? The second gives her something to push off, certainly.

[RAND AL THOR]

Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled. "I've often wished

I could use this to fly. The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly. Not this way, though. It doesn't work like that. You might reach out with your hands and pick up a

chest that weighs as much as you do; you look strong. But take hold of yourself however you will, you cannot pick yourself up."

Nynaeve's head jerked furiously, but not another muscle of her twitched. "The Light burn you, let me go!"

Egwene swallowed hard and hoped she was not also to be lifted.

"So," the Amyrlin continued, "big, hairy man, and so forth. He can do nothing to me, while I can do anything at all to him. Why, if I had a mind to" - she leaned forward, her eyes intent on Nynaeve; suddenly her smile did not seem very friendly - "I could turn him upside down and paddle his bottom. Just like - " Suddenly the Amyrlin flew backwards so hard her head rebounded from the wall, and there she stayed, as if something were pressing against her.

Egwene stared, her mouth dry. This isn't happening. It isn't.

 

There you go.

[Mr Ares]

Thank you Rand, that clears absolutely nothing up. Was Nynaeve against the wall to begin with? They are on a ship, ship cabins are not known for spaciousness - but this is the Amyrlin's cabin, so a bit more roominess that the average seaman gets is only to be expected. Where was Nynaeve sitting to begin with, on a chair, or on the bunk? It's not clear enough to rule out her being against the wall, and thus pushing off that. Unless you have more to add.

[Elgee]

Mr Ares, why don't you go read the book?

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, why don't you go read the book?

Don't have my books to hand to check

Read Great Hunt recently, but it's not at home at the moment. Now, unless someone can bring clear and unequivocal proof that Aes Sedai can defy gravity, I'm going to say that this method doesn't work and leave it at that unless someone has something else to add.

[Loophole]

Hello

 

Im new here so don't bite my head of for my idea  ;)

 

Since physics is being used to rule out possible flying methods, i don't see why someone using the power couldn't just shoot massive ammounts of air downwards or in the opposite direction that they wish to travel. This would be similar to a jet engine and if the mass of the air that they are pushing in downwards is enough they would lift off and fly. However this could be tricky to control and stabalise and would probably end badly..

[RAND AL THOR]

Initially Nynaeve was sitting with her back to the wall of the cabin.

 

She gets up when the Amyrlin comes and says that she will teach them.

 

She sits again after some time though it is not clear when she is sitting yet again with her back against the wall.

 

After that the incident which I quoted above occurs.

 

It is highly unlikely that throughout the process where Siuan lifts Nynaeve, Nynave was against the wall. That would most certainly make her grate against the wall when she rose and ought to have been described by the author.

 

 

When you lose contact with the ground, gravity will take its course. You can't just float in complete defiance of gravity.

 

Isn't that what Nynaeve is doing here? Even if she is pressed against the wall while levitating, she is still defying gravity.

[RAND AL THOR]

Loophole! Nice name, I'm assuming you'd love to take the 3 oaths.

 

While your idea makes sense, it likely wouldn't work for the exact reason you suggested-difficulty in controlling.

 

Remember that in the Age of Legends there were flying machines. They likely adopted some sort of mechanism similar to that.

 

Do we have any engineers here?

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Also, it is advised that everyone has a look at Majsju's sticky once in a while. I've posted a relevant part of it here.

 

Jokes/Spam

Cracking a joke is never wrong, everyone loves a good laugh. But threadjacking by having post after post after post with jokes turns jokes into spam, and noone likes that.

 

Other than that, respect your fellow posters, it is quite possible to argue without getting rude.

And have fun. This board is for you, so you can make your experience of WOT even richer, and give you the opportunity to interact with other people who share this one interest with you, the love of WOT.

[Mr Ares]

Initially Nynaeve was sitting with her back to the wall of the cabin.

 

She gets up when the Amyrlin comes and says that she will teach them.

 

She sits again after some time though it is not clear when she is sitting yet again with her back against the wall.

 

After that the incident which I quoted above occurs.

 

It is highly unlikely that throughout the process where Siuan lifts Nynaeve, Nynave was against the wall. That would most certainly make her grate against the wall when she rose and ought to have been described by the author.

Why? It's not necessary for her to scrape her back along the wall. If she was a couple of inches away, she could have been forced against the wall without Egwene noticing and then would be able to force Siuan against the wall, because she would then have something to push off. Or there are other options. Still, she wouldn't be able to defy gravity is my point. They need to be held up by something

 

When you lose contact with the ground, gravity will take its course. You can't just float in complete defiance of gravity.

Isn't that what Nynaeve is doing here? Even if she is pressed against the wall while levitating, she is still defying gravity.

No. Siuan is pushing off her and she is pushing off Siuan. They are pushing each ther into the walls. This is entirely possible (but somewhat undignified), if you wish to try. You can do it by yourself as well. That's essentially what we have in this instance, only aided by the Power rather than muscle strength. But there is a clear differece betwen this and hanging in mid air not pushing off anything.

 

Loophole, I think your suggestion would likely have been covered by this:

Any method of flight would have the same problem, which is why it is "impossible" - it may be possible, but so difficult as to scarcely be worth it.

[Elgee]

Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled.

 

What was Siuan pushing off?

 

Still, she wouldn't be able to defy gravity is my point. They need to be held up by something

 

They are being held up by flows of Air. It's like magic, not physics. Imagine the flow of air is an extension of your hand - you are picking someone up with that. What you are suggesting sounds like something out of David Edding's books (The Belgariad, etc).

[Mr Ares]

Nynaeve squawked furiously as she slowly rose, still in a sitting position, until her head almost touched the ceiling. The Amyrlin smiled.

 

What was Siuan pushing off?

What would you be pushing off if you picked someone up with your arms? You would be braced against the ground. You would not be defying gravity. However, if the person you were holding off the ground tried to pick you up before you put them down, they couldn't do it. It's an impossibility.

 

Still, she wouldn't be able to defy gravity is my point. They need to be held up by something

They are being held up by flows of Air. It's like magic, not physics. Imagine the flow of air is an extension of your hand - you are picking someone up with that. What you are suggesting sounds like something out of David Edding's books (The Belgariad, etc).

Errr....A giant flow of Air as an extension of your arm has been exactly what I've been imagining all along. If you hold someone off the ground then they cannot hold you off the ground unless the both of you are braced against something. Why are you telling me to imagine things the way I have been imagining all along, yet still disagree with me? Look at my analogies, relating to what is possible with your own arms. Apply the same priciples to the Power. You cannot pick yourself up by your own hair and hang in mid air unattched to anything. With your arms or the Power. You cannot hold someone in the air and get them to pick you up and hold you off the ground with neither of you in contact with anything. Because of gravity. Laws of physics. If you can do it, I would like to see a photo of you and a friend hanging usupported in the sky, and using this as a way to fly. Doesn't work in reality, doesn't work in WOT. And physics is exactly what this is like. It's not just magic, where the author handwaves and says "this is how stuff works, it just is", it's more like a science. There are rules. And RJ was a physicist. And people are bound by gravity. I don't know how magic works in Eddings, as I haven't read him. But I have read RJ and I know how the magic works there. But what I am suggesting is exactly what you tell me to imagine.

 

I eagerly await photos of you and a friend hanging in the air not supported by anything in apparent defiance of gravity.

[Luckers]

Mr Ares is correct--there needs to be a grounded point to diffuse the gravitational forces on the various masses--its why there are limits to how high a person can lift another person, irrespective of strength in the power. Technically i imagine you could lift someone who was lifting you, but they would have to react by dividing their flows to brace themselves against the ground, or you would both fall back. And even then the height limits apply--higher for women then men, but still no more than fourteen feet.

 

The Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends flew by sho-wing. And whilst yes it would be possible for a channeler to manipulate forces into allowing them to personally fly--displacing energy and momentum like a rocket would probably be the easiest way--but it would be pretty dangerous. The slightest mistep in manipulating the forces and you'd be falling, and landing would be almost impossible. Besides it requires a much higher knowledge of physics than is readily availliable--and if they learn anough about physics to do it, then its would be smarter to design a vehicle to facilitate the travel--like a sho-wing.

[RAND AL THOR]

I eagerly await photos of you and a friend hanging in the air not supported by anything in apparent defiance of gravity.

 

I'll provide you with that as soon as I learn to channel.

[Elgee]

if the person you were holding off the ground tried to pick you up before you put them down, they couldn't do it. It's an impossibility.

 

Are you saying that Nynaeve could not have picked up Siuan until Siuan put her back on the bed? (Which is NOT what happened, by the way.)

 

I will refrain from replying to whatever else it is you said, until you can do so in a civil manner.