The Bodyswap Theory

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I've recently started a re-read of the series and found something in EOTW that seems to provide additional support. 

Good that you've found it, though better first read the thread - it was mentioned on page 4, not so far away.

 

ahhh... missed that.  I did search the forum... and skimmed through this thread to find the appropriate discussion related to this dream Rand had in EOTW.  Not 100% sure about a body swap but the dream sure does support this Rand/Moridin or Champion of Light / Champion of Dark link.  Still stunned by the breadth of this story and the foreshadowing that was laid out in EOTW. 

 

<Sorry to repeat the earlier post from Razor on page 4 - guess that kind of thing never happens>

[Mr Ares]

I think RAW is actually Shai'tan, and is just trying to throw us off the scent of what He has planned.

[Jethro]

One of the problems that has always bugged me is this; the apparent stupidity of Shai'tan and his best buddy, Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin.  The crux of this alleged stupidity is this: why not just freaking kill Rand?

 

The same reason all along. If the Shadow can get the Dragon on their side, then nothing-NOTHING-can stop them. Whether or not he is turned against his will or goes willingly doesnt matter that much; if Rand became a Darkfriend, then the Great Lord need not battle him and wins by default.

[Mr Ares]

The same reason all along. If the Shadow can get the Dragon on their side, then nothing-NOTHING-can stop them. Whether or not he is turned against his will or goes willingly doesnt matter that much; if Rand became a Darkfriend, then the Great Lord need not battle him and wins by default.

Why does that reasoning not hold if he is dead? How can a dead man thwart their plans?

[benr]

The same reason all along. If the Shadow can get the Dragon on their side, then nothing-NOTHING-can stop them. Whether or not he is turned against his will or goes willingly doesnt matter that much; if Rand became a Darkfriend, then the Great Lord need not battle him and wins by default.

Why does that reasoning not hold if he is dead? How can a dead man thwart their plans?

 

I expect that there is something that only the Dragon can do that would free Shai'tan.  I'm thinking on what that could be...any thoughts?

[Nightstrike]

I expect that there is something that only the Dragon can do that would free Shai'tan.  I'm thinking on what that could be...any thoughts?

Seems like a reasonable assumption to me. Could it have anything to do with some special ta'veren effect that only the soul of the Dragon can contribute with? The DO has already started to influence the world, rather drasticallly I'd say. Maybe the dragon would work as some catalyst if he switched sides. Or was made to, with the 13+13 procedure.

 

Or maybe Rand is the only one that can unmake the drilling of the Bore. From "Thus spake the creator":

Q: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the creator outside of the pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

A: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

I think AMoL will reveal some unexpected things that concerns the Creator, the DO and the Dragon. I get this idea from the following (from "Thus spake the creator"):

Q: What would happen if the Dark One was victorious? And why can the Dark One act on the world but it seems the Creator cannot?

A: Read and find out. It's a good question, and an important theme -- but read and find out.

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

Holy crap that's a lot of speculation, RAW. Occam's razor and all that.

 

I don't think so RAW, I think Ishamael was just trying to sever Rand.  Which is why the attack failed when Rand grabbed Calandor to strengthen his connection to the source.

 

The description given in tDR when Ba'alzamon attempts to "take [Rand's] soul" is nothing like the description given when someone is attempting to sever a channeler.

 

"Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"

 

As Ba'alzamon put forth his hand, Rand pushed himself up, threw himself desperately toward Callandor, still glittering and flashing in midair. He did not know whether he could reach it, or touch it if he did, but he was sure it was his only chance.

 

Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out. The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.

 

That description is nothing like the descriptions we see of channelers trying to sever other channelers. There is no blade-like strike of the One Power, there is no feeling of cringing away from a blade that will sever something precious. Never have we seen a "ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away" in reference to severing.

[Jethro]

The same reason all along. If the Shadow can get the Dragon on their side, then nothing-NOTHING-can stop them. Whether or not he is turned against his will or goes willingly doesnt matter that much; if Rand became a Darkfriend, then the Great Lord need not battle him and wins by default.

Why does that reasoning not hold if he is dead? How can a dead man thwart their plans?

 

How good would Shaitan feel if the Lights Champion had become his own Champion? If they had the Dragon on side then anything else the Light conjured up wouldnt be enough to match the Dragon fighting alongside the Chosen.

[Sylvia]

I've never thought about the body switching idea. I mean, I guess it would work, but I don't see it happening. In my mind, I see it like in the final book of Harry Potter, he dies, but doesn't....Weird concept, but that's how I picture it.

 

Anyways, accepting the idea of transmigration, I would not think that Rand would be entering Moridin's body. It wouldn't make sense to put the Dragon Reborn into the Nae'Blis' body.

[ROB_88]

i do not like any thought of a bodyswap at all.

i don't care if it's the most probable or not, it just seems a bit too Deus Ex Machina for my taste

[Jethro]

I dont even think its the most probable, BECAUSE it fills in too many of the gaps. I like the theory though, and I think if hey did indeed switch bodies it could be brilliant. But, as all know by now, the prophecies and glimpses of the future dont always point where we think theyre pointing.

[Mr Ares]

How good would Shaitan feel if the Lights Champion had become his own Champion? If they had the Dragon on side then anything else the Light conjured up wouldnt be enough to match the Dragon fighting alongside the Chosen.

So a propaganda coup? Helping the Shadow's morale? Rand is necessary for the Light's victory. I simply wonder why denying him to the Light is not enought to win, why he must also aid the Shadow.

 

Anyways, accepting the idea of transmigration, I would not think that Rand would be entering Moridin's body. It wouldn't make sense to put the Dragon Reborn into the Nae'Blis' body.

Well, according to the body swap as it stands, it wouldn't make sense for it to be anyone else. There is a link between Moridin and Rand, and this is one of the foundations of the theory. If it was Rand and anyone else, there is no well established link, so it would just be a last minute seemingly random addition, rather than an ending that has been foreshadowed and hinted at.

[Nightstrike]

Rand is necessary for the Light's victory. I simply wonder why denying him to the Light is not enought to win, why he must also aid the Shadow.

Maybe it's not that he's necessary for the DO to "win over". It could be that his death would cause the Light to get the upper hand. Upon his death, the Dragon soul might be transferred to T'a'r and he can't be killed twice. Of course, he must still be able to "work his magic" from T'a'r. We don't know exactly what he's supposed to do, and we don't know if he could do it from T'a'r. What if he was Balefired, by the way? A hero of the Horn that was Balefired, would that soul still be transported into T'a'r, or would it go into the usual cycle of rebirths?

 

 

Well, according to the body swap as it stands, it wouldn't make sense for it to be anyone else. There is a link between Moridin and Rand, and this is one of the foundations of the theory. If it was Rand and anyone else, there is no well established link, so it would just be a last minute seemingly random addition, rather than an ending that has been foreshadowed and hinted at.

Yes, it seems like all the foreshadowing points toward some link between Rand/Moridin. I'd say it looks like there will be a bodyswap. Can't see any other reasonable explanation. Surprize or no surprize, I'm confident it will be good stuff to read about.

 

[Swigaro]

Maybe it's not that he's necessary for the DO to "win over". It could be that his death would cause the Light to get the upper hand. Upon his death, the Dragon soul might be transferred to T'a'r and he can't be killed twice. Of course, he must still be able to "work his magic" from T'a'r. We don't know exactly what he's supposed to do, and we don't know if he could do it from T'a'r. What if he was Balefired, by the way? A hero of the Horn that was Balefired, would that soul still be transported into T'a'r, or would it go into the usual cycle of rebirths?

 

 

Balefire only effects the DO's ability to recycle his Chosen.  A Hero of the Horn who was balefired would simply be dead until the patern spun them out again.

[naxxan]

One of the problems that has always bugged me is this; the apparent stupidity of Shai'tan and his best buddy, Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin.  The crux of this alleged stupidity is this: why not just freaking kill Rand?

 

The same reason all along. If the Shadow can get the Dragon on their side, then nothing-NOTHING-can stop them. Whether or not he is turned against his will or goes willingly doesnt matter that much; if Rand became a Darkfriend, then the Great Lord need not battle him and wins by default.

 

I think it's more than just having a star player for the dark team.  Imagine what having a darkfriend dragon with access to the true power and all his ta'veren wackiness could do to the Dark One's prison if all it took was two Aes Sedai to drill the bore?

 

I believe it was quoted earlier: "kick over the table and jump out of the window" forgive me if that's not exact.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Am I being sucked back in?  Perhaps.

 

By the way, Luckers, I didn't actually intend (see Siuan Sanche's Law of Unintended Consequences) to hijack your thread, but since you haven't objected, I'll refrain from feeling too bad.

 

Anyway ... guys, I'm with the Venerable Signor Mars here (thats Mr Ares for those unused to my verbal shenanigans).  The author says, and I quote, "According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him [referring directly to Rand], but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance."

 

(http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=22)

 

According to my understanding of English (which is fairly solid) and more importantly, my understanding of Southeast American English (as a long time resident of the American South), I can say with some confidence that the correct interpretation of that sentence is: Rand's death before Tarmon Gai'don would constitute a victory for the Shadow.

 

The subject of the post from which this quote is drawn is a response from RJ to various posts raising objections similar to my own, in the sense that we characterize the Shadow as relatively stupid.  He never really denies that assessment, drawing a comparison instead to the disastrous disorganization that prevailed in Nazi government during late WWII, and then stating that despite the infighting and bickering that existed in that group, they still nearly won.  I'm not sure I agree with that assessment (about the winning, its extremely clear that the infighting existed), but thats not my most relevant objection to that comparison.  It is this: the Allied Forces in WWII did not have a "Dragon" without whom victory was impossible.  There was no single individual with a role like that in the conflict in question.  Also, the Third Reich had no one as capable of assassination as Moridin clearly would be.

 

RJ is many things, but stupid is never one of them.  As a highly intelligent and well educated individual, he would be very aware of the issues I just raised.  Which is why the post regarding "Dumb Evil?" strikes me as another example of clever misdirection.

 

Yes, the relationship between the various Forsaken and their Darkfriend underlings is certainly analogous to the backstabbing infighting prevalent in the late days of the Third Reich.  But the relationship between Ishamael/Moridin and the Dark One has always seemed to be one of a total union of purpose, even to the point of identity blurring for Ishamael (see "Ba'alzamon").  It is for this reason that I think there must be something more to Moridin's unwillingness to kill Rand (except under the most extreme duress).

 

Jordan made clear in other circumstances that there are degrees of victory in the battle between the Light and the Shadow.  To quote again: "There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple."  (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58)  It could be said that the Shadow gained a great victory in the War of the Power, if you compare the condition of the world before the War to its condition afterward.  But the victory was clearly not a total victory. 

 

By the way, I'd just like to point out that we don't even really know what exactly a total victory would be, or what is necessary to achieve it.  It seems reasonable to assume that completely releasing the Dark One from his captivity would constitute such a victory, but we have no idea what that would do to the world as it exists.  It may very well be that the world would cease to exist, at least in its current physical form.  This is only pertinent to the current argument because without knowing precisely what is necessary to achieve a "total" victory, we can't really assess exactly how well the Dark One is doing.  I inserted this entire line of thought into the Body-swap discussion in an attempt to connect two essentially unknown quantities.

 

What I'm proposing is that the Prophecies are entirely correct, but perhaps not complete, in this sense; the regular death of Rand al'Thor would guarantee that the Light cannot win conpletely, but his regular death cannot give complete victory to the Shadow, either.  Nothing else that I can think of explains the discrepancies between Ishamael's complete abandonment of direct fatal action against Rand in the first year of this story, and the author's direct statement that without Rand, the Light has "no chance".  I'm sorry, but if killing Rand would guarantee the Shadow a complete victory, then Ba'alzamon has no excuse.  He is a moron.  And that is completely out of keeping with everything else we've seen. 

 

That is why I have latched on to the only direct interaction between a post-transmigration Moridin and Rand as a potential linchpin of the Dark One's plan, especially since there is a plausible connection between that interaction and the soul-ripping maneuver that Ba'alzamon tried in the Stone.

 

In another side note, Roxinos is completely correct in his assessment of the description of Ishamael's actions in the Stone.  The description is absolutely nothing like any description of shielding or severing that we have, and so it seems very unlikely that Ishy was trying to shield or sever Rand.

 

However, Roxinos, in response to your deployment of Occam's Razor, I would gleefully quote Jordan again ... "It's never simple."  ;D

 

Occam's Razor is sometimes restated this way: "Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simplest one is to be preferred."  To that assertion I would respond, "'All other things' are almost never equal."

[Nightstrike]

According to my understanding of English (which is fairly solid) and more importantly, my understanding of Southeast American English (as a long time resident of the American South), I can say with some confidence that the correct interpretation of that sentence is: Rand's death before Tarmon Gai'don would constitute a victory for the Shadow.

Yes, I think so too (even though english isn't my mother tongue). "Lews Therin, I have won again".

 

Jordan made clear in other circumstances that there are degrees of victory in the battle between the Light and the Shadow.  To quote again: "There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple."  (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58)  It could be said that the Shadow gained a great victory in the War of the Power, if you compare the condition of the world before the War to its condition afterward.  But the victory was clearly not a total victory.

I agree completely.

 

By the way, I'd just like to point out that we don't even really know what exactly a total victory would be, or what is necessary to achieve it.  It seems reasonable to assume that completely releasing the Dark One from his captivity would constitute such a victory, but we have no idea what that would do to the world as it exists.  It may very well be that the world would cease to exist, at least in its current physical form.  This is only pertinent to the current argument because without knowing precisely what is necessary to achieve a "total" victory, we can't really assess exactly how well the Dark One is doing.  I inserted this entire line of thought into the Body-swap discussion in an attempt to connect two essentially unknown quantities.

Rand on the DO's side seems necessary. That would probably bring annihilation of the Wheel and destruction of the world.

 

 

What I'm proposing is that the Prophecies are entirely correct, but perhaps not complete, in this sense; the regular death of Rand al'Thor would guarantee that the Light cannot win conpletely, but his regular death cannot give complete victory to the Shadow, either.  Nothing else that I can think of explains the discrepancies between Ishamael's complete abandonment of direct fatal action against Rand in the first year of this story, and the author's direct statement that without Rand, the Light has "no chance".  I'm sorry, but if killing Rand would guarantee the Shadow a complete victory, then Ba'alzamon has no excuse.  He is a moron.  And that is completely out of keeping with everything else we've seen.

Again, I agree completely.

 

That is why I have latched on to the only direct interaction between a post-transmigration Moridin and Rand as a potential linchpin of the Dark One's plan, especially since there is a plausible connection between that interaction and the soul-ripping maneuver that Ba'alzamon tried in the Stone.

Maybe the soul-ripping could have ended in the DO getting hold of Rand's soul (via the connection to the DO that Ba'alzamon had)?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

i still don't agree with what you guys say about the 'soul-ripping'.  i still think Ishamael was just trying to sever Rand.

[Mr Ares]

Am I being sucked back in?

Escape is impossible!

 

i still don't agree with what you guys say about the 'soul-ripping'. i still think Ishamael was just trying to sever Rand.

Despite the description being completely different?

[Thor]

then explain why the sensation stopped as soon as rand touched callandor.

[MikeRiley]

Maybe the soul ripping has the same properties as trying to hold a shield on somebody? When Rand drew in more of the power it would have made it that much harder for Ishamael to keep the weave going.

 

Also, on a previous page somebody mentioned the Creator not being able to take a hand in events - he can, as we see at Tarwin's Gap in Eye of the World. The Creator speaks directly to Rand warning him against the attack on Shayol Ghul that he was considering. It seems the Creator wants man to deal with things and doesn't want to get too involved.

[Mr Ares]

then explain why the sensation stopped as soon as rand touched callandor.

I think maybe you should explain that - why touching, not channeling through but merely touching, Callandor stopped Ba'alzamon. And why this instance of "severing" is described so differently to all the others.

[Thor]

nah don't think so, i maintain that ishamael was trying to sever rand.

 

keep in mind that ishamael was using TP, the method of severing would be different and hence resulting in a different sensation.

[MikeRiley]

Except that Ishamael said what he was doing, taking Rand's soul. The closest thing I've seen in the books that comes to the description of the sensation also involves soul stealing, with the.. cor souvra? I may have misspelled that. The crystal that holds the souls of Moghedien and Cyndane. Of course, the two are not the same but the sensation is close enough that both suggest something with the soul being removed.

 

It could also be something as simple as Ishamael seeing Rand grab Callandor and altered his tactics to avoid the butt whooping he was about to receive. It might have taken a bit more time to destroy Rand the way he wanted and it was time he no longer had.

[Roxinos]

I think maybe you should explain that - why touching, not channeling through but merely touching, Callandor stopped Ba'alzamon.

 

Rand still had only limited control over his ability to channel. The instant he touched The Sword That Is Not a Sword he began to channel through it.

 

His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.

 

The One Power surged through him, a torrent greater than he could believe, from saidin into the sword.

 

Yes, later it says that the tearing stopped as soon as he touched Callandor. But as soon as he touched Callandor he began to channel, the two events are linked.

 

keep in mind that ishamael was using TP, the method of severing would be different and hence resulting in a different sensation.

 

Why do you have such a strong belief that Ishamael has no control over souls? As far as I'm aware, this is not the first time we see souls being acted directly upon.

 

We know there are weaves that act upon the soul (the porcupine ter'angreal which sent Faile's soul into Tel'aran'rhiod by using a very powerful blast of Spirit, the barrier which prevented all souls but Lews Therin's from touching Callandor, etc.), why is it unimaginable that Ishamael was doing just what he said he was trying to do? He may be a liar, but I highly doubt in what he presumed was going to be his victory over Rand he would lie just for dramatic effect.