The Last and First Ages

[ZeiffTheTheiff]

 

The first Age starts with the creation of the Universe with the Big Bang some 5 billion years ago.  It continues with the creation of the Earth, through the various Geologic Ages to Man.

 

The last Age ends with a contracting of the Universe.  And then the Universe “bounces” into its twin (http://www.physorg.com/news126955971.html) and back into the first age.

 

Such a scenario would account for the “creator” to create the world.  Allow for the fossil record and everything that we take as “fact”.  At the same time allows for the whole cycle.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Serenla]

I can see that.  There would have to be various levels of ages though.  Cosmic Ages if you will, would be the stages of the universe.  First Cosmic Age starting at the Bang and the Last Cosmic Age ending with the Collapse, with expansion and equilibrium and retraction being the other spokes. To change a cosmic age, the other levels would have to change.  Like the minute hand on a clock.  Ages of Man would have to go through their cycle a certain number of times to change the "clock" to ages where there are no people and so on to change the Cosmic Ages.  That would factor in how the timing factor wouldn't quite add up.  Our planet is like 4.5 billion years old but the universe is around 13.5 billion.  The Wheel would have to pause otherwise. 

 

Not sure how much sense that made, astrophysics usually makes my brain hurt.

[ZeiffTheTheiff]

Couldn't the first age be 13.5b years long and the second 3000 years long or whatever it was?  Or is the great imbalance of length unlikely?  I just can't think of any other way to find congruence with what we take as scientific fact(such as dinosaurs).  Also if it is a wheel how can there be a Creator if there is never a point where it is created?  How can there be a point where it is created if it is a wheel?

[Leopoled Boothe]

While I do believe in the Big Bang, evolution and all that, I think in the WOT that Creationism is the rule ie the Creator created the Earth in the begining of time and created human beings just as they are.  This is a work of fiction afterall.  In the WOT world I don't think there ever was a time when there were no human beings and that the transition from the last age to the first age occurs just like any other.  In fact, I think the naming of the ages is quite arbitrary; I mean does no one else find it curious that the "Final Battle" occurs in the third of a seven age cycle?  At the begining of every book it right out states "in an age called the third age BY SOME" indicating that it is not an absolute third age but just the third age relative to some event.  My theory is that we are meant to currently be living in "the first age" (relative to Randland's third age).  Channeling was discovered at the end of "the first age" ushering in "the second age" which later came to be known as "The Age of Legends."  The discovery of channeling must have led to the discovery of The Wheel itself and it's nature and once they realized that the wheel was divided into seven ages they began numericly naming the ages from that point.  They knew, of couse, that there had been an age prior to the one in which they were living so they called that age the first age and considered themselves to be living in the second age.  I suspect in absolute terms the previous age had actually been the 5th and that they were living in the 6th age.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The 'Big Bang' is really just a convenient catchall for something nobody understands.  And, there are a couple of really big problems with it.

 

For one, nobody can figure out where it happened.  There is no definable center to our universe.  No point to which the trajectories of all known galaxies can be backtracked.

 

Superconducting Supercolliders like the one at CERN are believed to be able to give us the best insight into the processes of Universe creation.  But, what does it really do?  It drives atomic particles into near-lightspeed near-headon collisions with each other and watches the results.  In effect, banging two rocks together.  The resulting subatomic particles rebound away from that collision in random and sometimes even curving trajectories.  If all you knew about the process were the points at which each of those subatomic particles were observed sometime after the event, would you be able to find the location of the event?

 

So, my question is - if the best way to simulate the creation of the Universe is by banging rocks together, might the Universe itself not be the product of banging rocks together?  IOW, couldn't it really be more of a big smashup than a big explosion?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Couldn't the first age be 13.5b years long and the second 3000 years long or whatever it was?  Or is the great imbalance of length unlikely?  I just can't think of any other way to find congruence with what we take as scientific fact(such as dinosaurs).  Also if it is a wheel how can there be a Creator if there is never a point where it is created?  How can there be a point where it is created if it is a wheel?

 

ages can be any arbritary length(although i would expect it to remain consistent for every cycle - ala the 1st age can be 13b years and the second 5k, but the first will ALWAYS be 13b and the 2nd ALWAYS 5k, short of the DO manipulating the wheel)

[CUBAREY]

Couldn't the first age be 13.5b years long and the second 3000 years long or whatever it was?  Or is the great imbalance of length unlikely?  I just can't think of any other way to find congruence with what we take as scientific fact(such as dinosaurs).  Also if it is a wheel how can there be a Creator if there is never a point where it is created?  How can there be a point where it is created if it is a wheel?

 

 

First, its a work of fiction. While RJ took extradinary pains to make a coherent universe in which to write his story he did not asserting that the Universe he created was in fact a coherent and factual statement on how our universe was created.

 

Second, in order to fully understand how there can be a point of creation in a Universe where time is a wheel you would have at least study those religoins in which time is seen as circular and/or repeating. I myself am not knowledgible enough about those religions that I would attempt to explain them. However thwere are others who frequent these boars (i.e. Luckers for one)  that might be willing to explain the concepts.

[Razor]

After the universe contracts there will be no fossil record or anything else as it will contract into a black hole and everything will be destroyed prior to another big bang.

[CUBAREY]

One of the reasons why I believe the Third Age comes prior to our own Age has to to with legends and myths. Our Age knows the "Arthurian" legends. But Arthur Hawkeing (King Arthur), Thom Merrilin (Merlin the Magician), Fir Gawayn (Prince Gwuayn), Sir Galahad (Prince Galad), all live in the third Age.

[Alexius]

One of the reasons why I believe the Third Age comes prior to our own Age has to to with legends and myths. Our Age knows the "Arthurian" legends. But Arthur Hawkeing (King Arthur), Thom Merrilin (Merlin the Magician), Fir Gawayn (Prince Gwuayn), Sir Galahad (Prince Galad), all live in the third Age.

On the other hand, their legends and myths refer to our Age- Mosk and Merk with lances of fire, Lenn riding to the Moon in the belly of an eagle, Materese the mother of Ind, etc. And there's the Mercedes badge in the museum at Tanchico.

[ZeiffTheTheiff]

One of the reasons why I believe the Third Age comes prior to our own Age has to to with legends and myths. Our Age knows the "Arthurian" legends. But Arthur Hawkeing (King Arthur), Thom Merrilin (Merlin the Magician), Fir Gawayn (Prince Gwuayn), Sir Galahad (Prince Galad), all live in the third Age.

 

Yes but the fossils of the animals in Tanchico come from our time.

[Majsju]

The easiest way to explain an actual Creation in a world where time is a Wheel, is introducing an Age Zero, with linear time. Here is when the Creation happens, the Creator setting things up the way It wants. When everyone is decided to be functioning on its own, without need for more interference from the Creator, time is bent into a loop. And the Creator strolls off, like the gardener Moridin mutters about in Rands head.

[Alexius]

One of the reasons why I believe the Third Age comes prior to our own Age has to to with legends and myths. Our Age knows the "Arthurian" legends. But Arthur Hawkeing (King Arthur), Thom Merrilin (Merlin the Magician), Fir Gawayn (Prince Gwuayn), Sir Galahad (Prince Galad), all live in the third Age.

 

Yes but the fossils of the animals in Tanchico come from our time.

No proof of that- after all, there are still elephants in Seanchan, and there might be giraffes- we just don't know because they have no military or domestic use, so the Corenne/Hailene didn't take any.

OTOH, there is that Mercedes badge, and the legends, so your main point stands.

[Lord Nik]

After the universe contracts there will be no fossil record or anything else as it will contract into a black hole and everything will be destroyed prior to another big bang.

Almost Everyone here is using the big bang as the reference point to everything there stating. My point is that big bang is just a theory but all the arguments here are stating as the as "the truth". RJ's world(Wheel ect.) has just as much credibility as the big bang. Because right now the "big bang" therory is still just as much fiction.

as it will contract into a black hole and everything will be destroyed prior to another big bang

it will? Personally I dont know what will happen(have some ideas) but i dont know what will happen.

 

[Lord Nik]

And the Creator strolls off, like the gardener Moridin mutters about in Rands head.

wasnt that LTT? I really think that was....

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

that was moridin.

 

why?  because that thought was extremely philosophical(ishamael was a philosopher), lews therin 'nodded' at approval after hearing it, and because it did not originate from rand.

[Majsju]

And it is a thought that fits quite well with what we know about Moridins philosophy.