Undoing Balefire

[Jehaine]

Balefire is a weapon of the One Power usable by both male and female Aes Sedai. Its widespread use during the War of Power began to cause the Pattern to unravel, and it was subsequently banned from use by all wielders of the One Power.

 

When a target is struck with balefire, its thread in the pattern is destroyed, in an amount proportional to the power of the balefire strike. This translates to the target's existence being completely erased chronologically. For example, should an Aes Sedai use balefire on an attacking bandit, the bandit's action of attacking the Aes Sedai and anything leading up to the action of the attack would be erased, this would be determined to the power of the balefire attack.

 

This brings up a few questions of mine. As the use of Balefire removes a thread from the Pattern to the point of threatening to unravel the Pattern, i can't help but wonder about two things:

 

• Why would the Dark One agree to stop using balefire? The Pattern is what's imprisoning him, isn't it? He wants to break free to destroy the world and remake it in his own image, and keeping the Pattern from unraveling seems almost... counterproductive. Opposite to (one of) his goals.
  
• How did the Pattern recover? It is stated several times in the Books that the souls of balefired people are out of reach for even the Dark One, so how does the Wheel keep itself from losing too many souls during the WoP in every cycle? The way i understand, balefire destroyes a soul utterly so... who creates new souls to make up for the lost ones?
  

 

I just can't figure these two out. They seem to imply there's an active Greater Power that's stronger than the Dark One in charge of rebirths as opposed to keeping them alive for the DO (follow the Shadow = no rebirth for j00, which further touched my question on where new souls are apparently coming from)... Did i miss something, or should we chalk that one up to aMoL?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, I'm SURE you missed something.

 

Problem is, when thinking about balefire it's impossible not to.  It'll tie anybody's head in knots.

 

A corollary question is: Why would the forsaken have agreed voluntarily to stop using balefire?

 

Supposedly they want the DO to triumph.  Or, do they?

 

Suppose you've been promised immortality and undying power.  Would you want to survive forever in a world so alien it was beyond imagination?  Or, would you really just want to be a big shot in the world you knew?

[Alexius]

As a reply to the first question: I'm not sure if the DO's goal is to destroy the Pattern. I've always read that it was "to break the Wheel and slay the Great Serpent"- in other words, to stop the cycle and rule what's left forever. If the Pattern- i.e. the world- is destroyed, then there's nothing left to rule.

Also, it wasn't the Dark One who decided to stop using balefire, but his followers.

[aevogt]

The decision to discontinue the use of Balefire was unspoken rather than a truce per se.  The channelers on both sides realized that if they didn't stop, there'd be nothing left to rule.  There's never been a truce with the Shadow.

 

The DO's goal is to remake the pattern in his own image, not destroy reality.  It the pattern unravels, even the DO won't be able to do anything with it.

 

Once the use of BF was stopped, the pattern would begin to recover and knit itself more firmly as new souls are born back into it.  

[Jehaine]

Right, that answers my first question then... But what about the second?

 

How are new souls born into the Pattern somehow? I know the 'high quality' ones are being kept in reserve in TAR (affectionally nicknamed the Wheel's private wine celler), but what about everyone else?

[aevogt]

all souls are spun out over and over again, even if they're bf'd

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

[benr]

It was the relentless battering that balefire was causing to the Pattern that was threatening it.  The Pattern can repair minor issues, tears, deaths, etc. - it reweaves existing threads to regain the direction needed (in a sentient or non-sentient way, which has been discussed at lenth previously).  However, when too many tears appear, it becomes more and more difficult for the Pattern to rejuvinate itself, at some point crossing a critical mass point where it simply cannot repair itself.  Sounds like global warming.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Right, that answers my first question then... But what about the second?

 

How are new souls born into the Pattern somehow? I know the 'high quality' ones are being kept in reserve in TAR (affectionally nicknamed the Wheel's private wine celler), but what about everyone else?

 

Jordan's universe is a zero sum universe.  Nothing added, nothing lost.  The Wheel turns endlessly.  The world exists endlessly.  Mines never run out of ore.  Forests never run out of trees.  Stars don't run out of fuel and die either.

[aevogt]

and there is no entropy.  you can use the OP forever without fear of using it up.  which I always thought was flawed but far be it for me to question RJ.

 

[Jehaine]

Ah k, i always figured there was some kind of 'Well of Souls' available where the Pattern would grab a handful of every time it needed non-Hero cannon fodder.

 

To be honest, to have them created in this way means there's no individuality in death either. You die, and everything that makes you you is broken down into parts to be reassembled for the next rebirth.

 

I'm having a bit of trouble imagining the Wheel as an automaton, but that's the closest example i can think of...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

To be honest, to have them created in this way means there's no individuality in death either. You die, and everything that makes you you is broken down into parts to be reassembled for the next rebirth.

 

I sort of imagine that each soul is impressed with certain skills and aptitudes, which may flourish or flounder or not exist at all, depending on circumstances of the Wheel, but which nevertheless define a soul in a unique way. Sort of soul genetics, if you will.

 

 

[Jehaine]

Sort of -- and i'm putting it bluntly here -- the Wheel needing a blacksmith and rummaging around in a barrel with 'blacksmiths' written on it?

 

Either way, you'd still not be an actual rebirth, just a soul with some imprinted abilities that are decided on the moment of creation.

 

Alternatively, the souls of people that die are tossed on a pile and used the next time the Wheel is in need of some souls to weave into the Pattern, only making new ones in case someone is balefired. This would be more true to the general belief in rebirths that exist throughout Randland, anyway.

[TurboZ]

and there is no entropy.  you can use the OP forever without fear of using it up.  which I always thought was flawed but far be it for me to question RJ.

 

 

Not really flawed if you think in terms of the Conservation of Energy Theory. If you look at the Star Wars universe you can use the energy of the force and never use it up. But back to what I was saying about conservation. If you think about water for instance, there is never new water being made, but we always have it. You water your lawn. the water is used and returned to the water table. Any that was used by the plants will be expelled as waste and evaporate forming a continuous cycle. So with the OP, perhaps when you release the source any power you were holding is returned to the "reservoir" and what ever weave you created will return to it when it dissipates. That's my thoery on it.

[Jehaine]

Actually, that's not even that far off. The way i see the One Power being used, i see it more as rearranging elements rather than drawing on something to produce them from thin air. Nothing is actually made, just rearranged into another order to produce the desired effects (gather air + heat = fireball etc.)

 

For those same reasons, i blame the drought striking Randland after he had made it rain in Rhuidean on Rand himself, by pulling a lot of moisture out of the Randland air and into the Waste.

[Asmo]

Actually, that was clearly stated to be the Dark One's work.

 

As for the souls, I do not believe you are quite correct... everyone had past lives and such... so their souls undergo endless different rebirths. They're the same soul, but in one life it can be a hulking Warder and in another a false Dragon. Or maybe the Amyrlin Seat - it is likely that a man can be reborn as a woman and vice versa; if done naturally. The only souls that are persevered for "special use" are the Heroes of the Horn and probably the Dragon.

[Jehaine]

Would that be 'stated' or 'blamed'? There's quite a difference between the two, similar to how religious people blame the Devil whenever something bad happens.

 

It's true he might have 'helped it along', so to speak, but ever since i read him doing that i don't doubt that it was Rand that gave the initial push.

[Asmo]

*facepalm*

 

Moridin was angry that Nynaeve and co. got the Bowl of Winds, because "The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place."

 

Proof enough, or do you want the Dark One to grab you by the scruff of your neck and start screaming in your ears "I RUINED THE WEATHER! IT WAS ME!!"

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, nobody on the Dark side is:

A) Known for honesty.

B) Gonna turn down a freebie.

 

"Yeah... ummm... sure... it was me.  I DID THAT!"

 

 

< in this case, I do think it was the DO, but it may just have been seizing on a favorable opportunity provided, inadvertently, by Rand >

[Asmo]

The part I quoted explained Moridin's thoughts. No matter how dishonest he would be, why would he intentionally be thinking of a lie? Do you think he knew there was some invisible man overhead reading his thoughts and writing them into his book, and then just decided to think of a lie to confuse us for the lulz?

 

Also, Rand said there was water in the atmosphere when he conjured rain, however little. He drew on that. And a little rain in a few square miles of the Waste for like fifteen minutes wouldn't upset the natural balance of the world weather for years, or even give someone any particular grip to do so. It would be like a 0.1% contribution, in which case, it might as well not be any part of it at all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

How much of what Moridin thinks bears any resemblance to any objective truth?

 

Moridin can believe it was all the DO's doing all he wants.  That doesn't mean he's right.

[Jehaine]

I wasn't talking about the seasons, i was talking about the drought. I'm not blaming Rand for the everlasting winter, or the seasons getting fixed into place.

 

Just the drought that, as Bob mentioned as well, provided the DO with the opportunity to.

[Asmo]

How much of what Moridin thinks bears any resemblance to any objective truth?

 

Moridin can believe it was all the DO's doing all he wants.  That doesn't mean he's right.

 

Always. No author would have a character, with clear knowledge of an issue, specify some thoughts on the issue, without any indication of guesswork or speculation, without anyone challenging these thoughts, without any indication ever that he is wrong, and expect us readers to believe he is lying. That's just not the way authors write - that's not the way Robert Jordan wrote. It's quite simple no matter how you look at it. If Moridin thinks "Damn, the Dark Lord tried so hard to screw up the weather, but those wretches might do something to set it straight", and absolutely nothing and noone puts the blame for the weather otherwise, then the Dark One was the one to mess with the weather, period. Following the same trail of thought, if noone ever insinuated that Rand's conjuring of a small rain in the Waste had anything to do with the weather, then, while remaining plausible, it's only an opinion of whether it actually helped or not. It's not a theory - theories require something from the books to support them. It's an opinion, and while you can have it, you can't expect others to believe it when it has such a little basis. It's like claiming that visiting the Eye of the World woke up Lews Therin Telamon in Rand's head. It's certainly possible, but completely baseless.

 

@Jehaine: Fixing the seasons in place was what caused the drought. There was no everlasting winter - only long-lasting extreme heat. The subsequent "bad" weather was because Nynaeve and co. had used the Bowl of Winds a bit too much.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, there are some important things to note. Firstly, I don't think the exact details are crucial to the plot. And secondly, RJ uses Moridin to state only that the Dark One had influenced the weather, not that he was the sole source.

 

The part I quoted explained Moridin's thoughts. No matter how dishonest he would be, why would he intentionally be thinking of a lie?

 

Um, no. He wasn't talking about Moridin lying. He was talking about the Dark One lying.

 

And secondly, couldn't Moridin have just assumed the DO had done the weather changing? Which could make him wrong.

 

Not that I am for this theory. I think that if Rand affected the weather, it was barely.

[benr]

No, Moridin wouldn't conciously lie in his thoughts, but we all lie to ourselves at times.  Plus, believing a lie is true means that it isn't a lie to you.  That is a key thing with AS that have used the Oath Rod; if they believe something untrue to be true, they can state it as true.  That is the basis of the (not true) story of Logain being set up by the Reds as a false dragon.  The 'ferrets' believe it to be true, so when questioned about it - in fact, told to deny it - they can't, as they believe it for truth.  They would die before they could "lie" about that.