The Song, Chora Trees, and Tarmon Gai'don

[Luckers]

There's also repeated reference to the unparalleled work done by Ogier stonemasons, which involves Stone Singing.

 

Stone Singing? Where on earth did you get that? It's directly stated that Ogier Stonemasons have calluses from the work--its a trade they learnt during the Breaking, not a singing ability.

 

Why do you people think it amplifies the power?

 

An excellent question--no idea, myself. There is certainly nothing in the books to suggest it.

 

Musing on the near extermination of the Aiel....if that remnant of a remnant prophecy comes the way we expect then the aiel really do get it the worst out of any people in the history of the pattern. First they get thousands upon thousands of em wiped out trying to turn a male channeler sane, then beyond how many died from the breaking itself they get their people raped, robbed, and massacred throughout the reforming years by anyone who so desires, only to then have their people split 3 ways (jenn aiel, the aiel we know, and tinkers) and now potentially be near exterminated all afresh.....doesn't seem right. Especially since they're hands down my favorite nation of people in the book

 

I don't actually 'expect' that prophecy to turn out that way. For staters it seems likely that the prophecy refers to the remnant of a remnant of the Dai'shain, not the modern Aiel--in effect, only a remnant of the modern Aiel. 'The remnant' of 'a remnant--modern Aiel'.

 

Furthermore, that process is already in motion--we've seen a massive sequence of changes in the Aiel in the sequence of the books--the revelation about the Dai'shain, the change of attitude about the Aes Sedai, the change of reguard for Rhuidean, the Wise Ones fightings, the new channeling knowledge... and that can only continue. Male channelers will now need to be taught, throwing off the gender balance. Travelling and their current interactions with non-Aiel mean they can't go back to cultural seclusion in the Waste--and whose to say what effect having a surface lake will have on the weather of the Waste itself.

 

So, whilst i do expect the Aiel to pay a heavy price in blood in Tarmon Gai'don, i don't concider that prophecy to refer to blood or death, but rather culture. Much like modern Aiel are a remnant of the Dai'shain, with not using swords, and the cadin'sor, and veiling and all the rest, so too will the new Aiel be a remnant of modern Aiel--quite different, yet with clear roots in that culture.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nobody said Singing allowed them to levitate rock.  They'd still need to move and maneuver the rock manually, leading to callused hands.  But, it would assist in quarrying and shaping that rock just as Singing assists Treesingers like Loial in separating and shaping wood from trees.

[Majsju]

 

Not quite.  We have Loial, and through repeated reference other Ogier, as well.  Sung Wood ( remember the staff he made himself during the trek across the mirror world, and his reference to the beds at the Manor in KoD ).  Then there's the Song he sings to strengthen and preserve Someshta's monument tree.  ( which may have also resulted in the Blight receding by ~2 miles ) There's also repeated reference to the unparalleled work done by Ogier stonemasons, which involves Stone Singing.

 

All would have been done long after all of the Nym except Someshta were extinct.

 

Are you suggesting humans would discover the ability of wood singing then, since my post was about humans?

What a completely different species can or can not do is quite irrelevant.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj, I quoted your post in its entirety.

It has been introduced as something strongly connected to channeling. ...

 

That "It" can only refer to Singing.

 

My point is that Singing has Power in and of itself.  It does not require channeling to accomplish things.  It may be able to accomplish even more when used in conjunction with channeling, but it doesn't require it.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Nobody said Singing allowed them to levitate rock.  They'd still need to move and maneuver the rock manually, leading to callused hands.  But, it would assist in quarrying and shaping that rock just as Singing assists Treesingers like Loial in separating and shaping wood from trees.

 

Fair enough, my objection might theoretically be voided by that--though i would point out that artists rarely lower themselves to moving the base material, so my objection has grounds for standing.

 

Still, do you have any evidence whatsoever for this 'stone singing'? It certainly isn't suggested, implied or rumoured in the books--so far as I remember anyway. Am I wrong?

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Stone Singing is my own term.  I don't recall anything specific being mentioned either, other than that Ogier stonework was especially prized and universally regarded as the best around.

 

Since Sung Wood is the best woodwork available it simply made the most sense to me that the Ogier stonemasons got equal results using an equivalent method.

[Luckers]

Ah, ok. Personally I don't see it, but meh.

[cloglord]

This thread got weird in a hurry.

 

First of all, I agree that Ogier do not "stone sing,'  every mention of stonework made by an actual ogier is laced with their views on stonework's relative irrelevance.  Simply, Ogier prefer living things, and stone is dead.  It's like migrant workers who pick vegetables or pour concrete for a living.  I doubt, (And I have worked with some of these populations,) that they found any sense of great fulfillment from their work, it was just a way to pay the bills so that they could support their families.  I envision that the Ogier see stoneworking similarly, a need to leave the relative security and comfort of a familar society, to find work.

 

 

Secondly, Maj is spot on, with his point that Ogier treesinging and the "Song," are sufficiently different as to preclude us from making assumptions about one, based on the other.  There seems to be a connection between the two, as evidences in the Rhuidean flashbacks, and the strange feelings of familiarity that Rand feels while listening to Loial's singing, but not enough to draw conclusions from.

 

Third.  The BWB flat out says that the use of the song amplified the use of the OP.  I'm not at home, so I can't quote it now, but I have before, and can again at need. 

 

Lastly, Lucker's and I do not agree that the prophecy was in reference to the Daishan Aiel.  Since the prophecy was made at a time when the Aiel were either Jenn Aiel or just Daishan Aiel, I can't see how a prophecy could refer to a group that no longer existed at the time of the prophecy. 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Simply, Ogier prefer living things, and stone is dead.

 

To any great scuptor, stone is a living thing.  Many have referred to what they do as releasing a hidden shape from its prison.  Or, revealing a shape that is hidden within the stone.

 

Even if you personally consider stone as 'dead', them preferring something 'living' doesn't mean that they're limited to it.

[Luckers]

Lastly, Lucker's and I do not agree that the prophecy was in reference to the Daishan Aiel.  Since the prophecy was made at a time when the Aiel were either Jenn Aiel or just Daishan Aiel, I can't see how a prophecy could refer to a group that no longer existed at the time of the prophecy.  

 

Don't you mean 'still existed'?

 

In any case prophecy speaks to future realities--concider that that same prophecy speaks of 'those that call themselves Aiel' showing clear distinction--in the mind of the speakers they were not Aiel.

 

Therefore, as Dai'shain, the remnant of a remnant refering to themselves makes a hell of a lot of sense. They, as dai'shain, would definately see modern Aiel as a remnant.

[BlackveiledTaraboner]

Page 34 of the BWB(? I dont know what this abbreviation means but I'm assuming its the book I'm looking at) 

"Sources are not clear whether or not Da'shain Aiel could channel, though they do agree that the Aiel could often enhance channeling, as when adding their voices to the seed singing of the Ogier."

[Lord Nik]

BWB is the big white book.. the real name of them book is along the lines of Robert Jordans World of the Wheel of Time. It has history and info on WoT ect..

[BlackveiledTaraboner]

I had never seen an explanation for the abbreviation so despite kind of assuming it was that book, I had wondered if maybe there was another i was unaware of...

[cloglord]

Lucker's I miss typed, at the time opf the prophecy the Aiel had long since dropped the Daishan part and were calling themselves Aiel or Jenn Aiel repectively.  If the prophecy was in reference to the Daishan it would have been referenced as a remnant of the remnant shall be saved.  The tense is incorrect for it to be a backwards reference.

[Llewin]

Rediscovering the Voice would make very little sense, especially with so little time left for introducing new elements to the story. And even if the talent reappeared, noone would know what to do with it.

 

LTT would...

[Snowy Dawn]

I assume that the Da'shain had many songs besides the Seed Song, so I would agree that ``The Song'' is short for ``what we have lost'' or something of the sort. It seems reasonable to me, however, that LTT does know some of those. I rather fancy that Rand will meet up with a seeker of the Tuatha'an, who will ask ``Do you know the Song?'', only to have Rand (really LTT) offer to teach him one or more of the songs of the Da'shain. But we shall see....

[Luckers]

Lucker's I miss typed, at the time opf the prophecy the Aiel had long since dropped the Daishan part and were calling themselves Aiel or Jenn Aiel repectively.  If the prophecy was in reference to the Daishan it would have been referenced as a remnant of the remnant shall be saved.  The tense is incorrect for it to be a backwards reference.

 

Jenn or Dai'shain, it was spoken by those who held to the covenant--that or Aes Sedai--and either way the violent Aiel would be the focus, the remnant. A remnant of the remnant that currently exists.

 

I assume that the Da'shain had many songs besides the Seed Song, so I would agree that ``The Song'' is short for ``what we have lost'' or something of the sort. It seems reasonable to me, however, that LTT does know some of those. I rather fancy that Rand will meet up with a seeker of the Tuatha'an, who will ask ``Do you know the Song?'', only to have Rand (really LTT) offer to teach him one or more of the songs of the Da'shain. But we shall see....

 

The 'songs' are not a set of magical lyrics. They are power expressed through vocalisation.  LTT could repeat the sounds he'd heard to his hearts content, and they'd hold no power--much like who the tuatha'an failed to learn Treesinging from the Ogier. It's an ability, a function of the talent of the Voice.

[Llewin]

The 'songs' are not a set of magical lyrics. They are power expressed through vocalisation.  LTT could repeat the sounds he'd heard to his hearts content, and they'd hold no power--much like who the tuatha'an failed to learn Treesinging from the Ogier. It's an ability, a function of the talent of the Voice.

 

Why do we assume that LTT does not have the voice? part of the prophecies talk about him singing and bringing life back to the land... (i do not have the direct quote...) He though Ishy might have "The Voice" in the prologue of EOTW and even though he was crazy, it was a very focused sort of insanity, he still understood how the world around him worked, which means that if it was ONLY Da'shain Aiel who had 'the voice' LTT would have known that... and Ishy looked nothing like an Aiel...

[cloglord]

I think that the ability to use the Voice was a genetic one.  We only have examples of Aiel using the voice in the AoL.  The voice was a trait that existed commonly enough in the AoL that it's use was wide spread, and yet it managed to disapear entirely in a very short time after the beggining of the breaking.  Now if you look at the plight of the Aiel over that period, you can see that Aiel society was of necesity a very insular society, and it's evolution as a culture managed to drop the habit of male singing from the populace as a whole.  The only place that it seems possible for the "Voice" to be hiding out, is in the Aiel population.   

[eol]

Why do we assume that LTT does not have the voice?

 

It doesn't matter if LTT has the voice, he couldn't teach it to some random seeker unless that seeker had the possibility for that voice to manifest within him awoken by hearing LTT singing. It cant be learned, it is a Talent.

[Cybertrolloc]

I think there might be some bleed through from the Thomas Covenant series here. His giants Pitch-Wive stone, that involves singing. Can't recall anything in WoT to suggest this.

[Luckers]

Why do we assume that LTT does not have the voice? part of the prophecies talk about him singing and bringing life back to the land... (i do not have the direct quote...) He though Ishy might have "The Voice" in the prologue of EOTW and even though he was crazy, it was a very focused sort of insanity, he still understood how the world around him worked, which means that if it was ONLY Da'shain Aiel who had 'the voice' LTT would have known that... and Ishy looked nothing like an Aiel...

 

Forgiveness, I did not mean to imply that LTT did not have the Voice. Truth is we don't have enough information to guess one way or another. I was merely saying that LTT could reveal every sound he remembered from the singing--even give the singing to Rand himself, and it would do anything. The noises were an exprssion of the power of the singing, they hold no intrinsic power themselves. Thus the idea that LTT would be able to teach someone the words of the song, and this bring back the seed-singing is not possible.

 

It may be possible for him to teach someone who had the Talent of the Voice how to use it, but that would not involve teaching them magical lyrics.

 

 

[cloglord]

I think it is highly likely that Rand has the Voice, and having experienced the seed singing is in an excellent position to utilize it independently of any knowledge or influence LTT might have. 

 

Rand has been strangely drawn to the treesinging of Loial on more than one occasion, and has exhibited extremely strong ties to his Aiel heritage.  Since his exposure to the Rhuidean memories, he has become progressively harder, and more unstable.  He has not attempted music of any kind in quite some time despite his aptitude for the flute in the earlier books.  I don't think he's been in the mood to do any singing, perhaps once he's re-learned laughter and tears, he will be in the proper mindset to do a little improv Jazz scat... 

 

...just the thing to seal the bore.

[Luckers]

Heh, that could cause problems.

 

"So, what your saying is... i became a badass with the sword, i leashed a forsaken to learn to use the Power, and then later cleansed it so i could be badass with it too... and im going to save the world by singing a song? Oh someone is going to PAY for this!"

 

But no, seriously, i could definately see it being possible for the seed singing to return--it would provide the answer for the femine thats coming to the land as a result of the rotting. I don't know how i feel about him singing the bore closed though.

 

But then ive no real idea how he's going to deal with the Dark One--i doubt it will a simple re-sealing, so i suppose its very possible.

 

 

[Snowy Dawn]

``He has not attempted music of any kind in quite some time despite his aptitude for the flute in the earlier books''

 

Not true, he plays the flute in The Counsel's Head, an inn in Far Madding. See <i>Winter's Heart</i>, beginning of Ch. 25. He plays, courtesy LTT, a tune called ``Lament for the Long Night'', the which causes LTT to weep, then ``The Drunken Peddler. This is just before Alanna shows up.