Furyk Karede

[Bob T Dwarf]

This one should be a quicky.  It should be pretty easy to decide if you think it holds water or not.

 

Karede the man and the soldier:

"Furyk Karede, he said briskly.  Born forty-two years ago to weavers, the property of one Jalid Magonine, a craftsman in Ancarid.  Chosen at fifteen for training in the Deathwatch Guards.  Cited twice for heroism and mentioned in dispatches three times, then as a seven-year veteran, named to the bodyguard of the High Lady Tuon upon her birth.  That had not been her name then, of course, but mentioning her birth-name would have been an insult.  "That same year, as one of three survivors of the first known attempt on her life, chosen for training as an officer.  Service during the Muyami Uprising and the Janmin Incident, more citations for heroism, more mentions in dispatches and assignment back to the High Lady's bodyguard just before her first true-name day.  Mor peered into his wine and then looked up suddenly.  "At your request.  Unusual, that.  The following year you took three serious wounds shielding her with your body against another set of assassins.  She gave you her most precious possession, a doll.  After more distinguished service, with further citations and mentions, you were selected for the bodyguard of the Empress herself, may she live forever, and served there until named to accompany the High Lord Turak to these lands with the Hailene.  Times change, and men change, but before going to guard the throne, you made two other requests for assignment to the High Lady Tuon's bodyguard.  Most unusual.  And you kept the doll until it was destroyed in the Great Fire of Sohima, a matter of ten years.

 

The setup:

 

Shortly before he turns 22, Karede's initiative, heroism, and dedication bring him to the Empress' attention.  He receives his second award for heroism in the Capital.  The Empress attends.  She is impressed by what she has learned about the remarkable young man and by his appearance and demeanor.  She decides to take an interest in his career development.  When her new is daughter is subsequently born, she has him assigned as one of the baby's bodyguards.  When he further proves his devotion and dedication by helping foil an assassination attempt, she sees to it that he receives officer training.  After further seasoning and more heroism and mentions, she has him assigned to her own bodyguard.  She then approves his reassignment back to Tuon.  After he is nearly killed defending the child from yet another assassination attempt, she blocks his further direct involvement in Tuon's security.  Besides, the preparations and planning for the Hailene have been underway for years.  She decides to send him ahead with the Forerunners to help insure that when Tuon gets there with the Return she will be as safe and secure as her mother can make her from so far away.

 

The payoff:

 

Karede is Tuon's father.  He knows it.  It is a big part of why he has been so dedicated to her safety.  Tuon probably knows, as well.  That's a big part of why she remembers him and details about him so clearly.  It's why she gave him her doll.  It's why she trusts him completely.

 

The extreme class stratification of their society won't let either of them openly admit it.

 

Okay... have at it.

 

 

[Vemynal]

Tuon comments that her father was a gambler just like Mat, and then lost one of his gambles and dies.

 

I think she implied he rebelled against the sean chan throne

[Bob T Dwarf]

Possibly.  Officially, her father was whoever was married to her mother.

 

I'm talking paternity, not what got written on the birth certificate.

[metria31183]

Don't the Seanchan look unfavorablely with sex with da'covale which is what the human Deathwatch Guard are?  If so, the caste system in Seanchan is so strong, I don't think the Empress would even consider sleeping with a slave, even if the slave was a Deathwatch Guard.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Didn't the Victorian's look unfavorably on most of life's pleasures?  Weren't they also carrying on like rabbits behind the scenes?

 

She's the Empress.  She gets to do whatever pleases her.  Nobody "notices" no matter what they think they see or what they think they know.  Officially everything is very prim and proper, spic and span at all times.  Nothing, ever, tarnishes the Empress.

 

There's a hoary old story about a neophyte at the Court of the Chinese Emperor.  He asked a more seasoned hand what he should do if the Emperor were to break wind in his presence.  He was told to prostrate himself and beg forgiveness for having done something so rude.

 

Emperor's aren't even allowed to have normal body functions.

[metria31183]

True Bob, but look at Tuon.  She is has the caste system so ingrained into her that she won't alter on hair of her opinion that all channelers should be leashed, even after being around Teslyn and Joline.  I just don't think Imperial Seanchan would have anything to do with property.  To them it be akin to beastiality I think.

[DemandredFO]

In the 18th and 19th century slaves were thought of as property but alot of slavemasters had children by slaves.  Don't forget too, Sul'dam can learn to channel yet they are allowed to hold high positions while their sisters are treated as less than human.  So, I wouldn't be surprised if Karede is her father.  It does make sort of sense.

[metria31183]

The Seanchan don't know sul'dam can channel until they invade Randland.  And while DemandredFO has a point about 18th century slaves, there wasn't the rigid caste system the Seanchan had.  A slave in the 18th century could conceivably be freed.  Not so in Seanchan.  In their culture, once a slave, always a slave.

[Valinthros]

I think this one has merit, simply because the time line, and the way Furyk was presented as a protector to Tuon.  It makes sense, and conceivably it is a possibility.

 

On the flip side, I didnt feel that this was a possibility when I read it.  Furyk did seem to be tied more to duty than to personal attatchments, regardless of what the plot line suggested.  On top of that, I dont think that he would have shown suprise that she followed his career and asked about the doll if they both knew.  Doesnt fit well.  Unless of course they've never spoken of it.  Which could be a possibility given Seanchan protocol and society... as much of that as we can peice together at this point anyhow.

 

In order to throw my support here, I'd have to have more info.  It's definitely worth considering though, good job Bob_T_Dwarf!

[Bob T Dwarf]

You could be very right about the bestiality thing, metria.

 

Consider a couple of other points from a purely realistic viewpoint:

 

Tuon married Mat.  Yes, she kinda likes him, but it was for Reasons of State, and because she believed what the damane forecast.

They're on opposite sides of an ongoing war.  She has only her faith in Karede and hope that she will live to make it back to Ebou Dar.

She also has her faith in The Ever Victorious Army.  So, Mat's side will inevitably lose, the way she sees things.  Will Mat survive that?

Even if they both survive, will they ever see each other again?  Will that marriage ever be consumated? Will she remain celibate for life if it isn't?

Does she even want it to be consumated?

 

Who would be an appropriate and safe liaison for an Empress?

A noble?  Not, likely, they plot and scheme, and it might end fatally for the Empress.

So, who?

 

A proven, loyal, dedicated Guard?  One who is property?  One who can be easily disposed of if he proves disloyal?

 

It's a route royalty has followed as long as there have been kings and slaves.

 

My view is that it's a mistake to look only at the public mask such personages wear.  Look to the human being behind the mask.  The one who, deep down, wants all of the same things less public people want.  The one who may not be able to acquire those things through the officially approved channels.

[wvlr]

Karede is indeed a very interesting character, but I really doubt that he is Toun's father.    He was pretty young at the time she was concived (not to young to do the deed) but enough that I can't see Emperess (Very class concious if Tuon is an accurate example) having time to develope such a relationship.

 

I am really wondering that since Karede has seen Mat, that Tuon might send him to find Mat and 1. help take care of him and 2. to teach him some of the Seanchan ways that Mat needs to know.

[metria31183]

Good points Bob.  Tuon is still young and naive.  The young tend to assume society works the way they have been taught it is supposed to work.  The Empress on the other hand would have been wiser in the ways of the world.  So I guess it comes down to exactly how big of a taboo sleeping with a slave is in Seanchan society?  In our 18th and 19th century, sexual relations with slaves weren't openly discussed, but they were not seen as particularly deviant behavior.  However, sex with a sheep would probably have gotten banished if not imprisoned or killed.  We know sex with a damane is considered perverted.  Would sex with a da'covale be seen as the same?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Thanks, Valinthros -

 

It didn't hit me when I read it either.  But on re-reading a couple of things began to stand out.

 

Twice assigned to her Guard detail.  Twice more prevented.  Currently not one of her Guards.  Once Rand had killed Turak, he would have devolved to The High Lady Suroth's detail.  No indication that his status has been changed.

 

Thus, officially, while Tuon's safety is a general responsibilty, her status and fate are not any specific part of his duties.

 

Yet, when we meet him he is in a total funk.  Tuon is missing and nobody knows why or where she might be.  Mor arrives and lays out a plausible scenario to him.  Officially he could just bump the information upstairs to the detail that is assigned to Tuon specifically.  He doesn't.

 

Just before Mor shows up he's thinking:

... but their first calling was to protect the lives and persons of the Imperial family.   And, nine nights past, the high Lady Tuon had vanished as if swallowed by the storm. ...

 

He had not considered taking his own life, either, though the shame had cut him keenly.  It was for the Blood to resort to the easy way to escape disgrace; the Deathwatch Guard fought to the last. Musenge commanded her personal bodyguard, but as the highest-ranking member of the Guard this side of the Aryth Ocean, it was Karede's duty to return her safely. ...

 

If he found her dead, he must find who had killed her, who had given the ultimate commands, and avenge her whatever the cost.  That was his duty, too.

 

The combination of his mental state when we first meet him and the last line I quoted above, tells me this isn't just duty.  It's personal.  Very personal.

 

As we later see, he has faith in Musenge.  Because of his position he has a whole world of other responsibilities as well.  He could clearly delegate this task.

 

He doesn't.  He risks everything he's spent 27 years building up on the ( very fierce ) hope that he will be able to figure out how to find the needle in the haystack. And, then get her safely back using only a minimal force of those he can best trust.  In the face of a conspiracy that reaches who knows how high or how wide.

 

A very fierce, very dedicated, very dangerous man.  On a MISSION.

 

 

 

[metria31183]

Good quote Bob.  I can see how that last line could point to the duty of a father to avenge a daughter.  And on second thought, finding out her father is slave might be just what Tuon needs to undermine her faith in Seanchan society and abandon her early teachings.  Learning that sul'dam can channel has surely shaken her, but she has clung to what she has known all her life by tooth and nail so far.  This just might make her let go.  I'm not quite ready to concede that he Furyk is her father, but it would definately make for an interesting plot device.

[Bob T Dwarf]

wvlr -

 

You could well be right, as well.  Whether he is her father, or not, if an alliance is reached it would make both military and plot sense to have Karede and Mat coordinating things and learning from each other.

[Cybertrolloc]

Will she remain celibate for life if it isn't?

Technically she can't, since she married ;)

 

Ultimately it doesn't really matter to me. Karede is a noble character with some points in cool and badass, and provides us with a look into the Seanchan way of thinking. And makes a much better PoV than the heroes, at least he notices things around him ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah, I really like him too. 

 

Gareth Bryne is another I like.  Quiet, not flashy.  Very competent.  Sticks by his word.

Ituralde is one I very much want to like.  I just can't make up my mind, based on the little we've see of him, whether Graendal succeeded in polluting him or not.

Tazllmane's is another good guy.  Again, very competent.  Capable of commanding not just being Mat's Adjutant.

 

But, like you say, the list of those who keep their eyes and ears open and their minds actually working is a short one.

[cloglord]

The answer to the paternity test has come in Maury, and the answer is that Furyk Karede is most likely not the father of Tuon.  Despite what Bod Dwarf has laid out, the timing is wrong.  From the encyclopedia WoT.

 

958- Furyk Karde is born as a slave, to a merchant

973-  At the age of 15 he is chosen to become a deathwatch guard.

980-  Tuon is born, and Furk is assigned to her at birth.

 

If all you look at are these three things the possibility is wide open.  Furyk would have been 21 at the time of conception, a young good looking man, possibly good looking enough to catch the eye of the empress, except...

 

Furyk Karede was married and have more than 2 sons with his beloved wife Kalia.  We know that she was beloved, because despite being unwilling to allow the use of the OP on himself in the case of injury, he consideres such a moralyy repugnant thing in relation to wishing his dead wife were still alive.  We also know that he had more than 2 kids, because he has 2 "surviving" sons who are currently in the death watch guards.Okay so if you take the minimmums and trace it backwards you see that the window of opportunity for Furyk to be Radhanan's babydaddy is pretty small.  lets say it take 15 years before you are chosen for deathwatch guard duty, as per furyk's example.  Then lets say that furyk got married  and concieved his first son that night and then a year later after the first of his first son, helped concieve his second..  Give that second son a year to percolate, and all told it takes close to 2 years to produce two sons.  Add fifteen years to the age of son number two and you get a minimum timeframe of 17 years to get those boys into the death watch guards. 

 

Now if you subtract back 17 years you get the year 983, or three years after  Tuon is born. Now that leaves the ten years between 973 and 983 for furyk to get noticed, develop a relationship with radhanan, father a child, get assigned to protect her, it does not leave much time for Furyke to meet his wife, fall in love, make two insta-babies and get them sheparded up in time for both of them to make it into the DW guards. 

 

Since Bob Dwarf wants us to avoid missing the personal side of the characters.

 

My view is that it's a mistake to look only at the public mask such personages wear.  Look to the human being behind the mask.  The one who, deep down, wants all of the same things less public people want.

 

I think it is highly unlikely that Furyk extricated himself from a relationship with the empress, fell in love with Kalia, and proceeded to make babies as fast as possible to make things fit the overall timeline.  Sure its possible, but just becasue its possible doesn't make it likely.

 

I will give Bob credit for coming up with an idea I've not seen here before, though.

[Jehaine]

Just wondering about something here.

 

If the Empress wanted to sleep with Kadere, i don't think Kadere himself would have had much to say about it. The Empress is the Empress after all, and Bob gives an example how something bad can never be the Empress' fault:

 

Didn't the Victorian's look unfavorably on most of life's pleasures?  Weren't they also carrying on like rabbits behind the scenes?

 

She's the Empress.  She gets to do whatever pleases her.  Nobody "notices" no matter what they think they see or what they think they know.  Officially everything is very prim and proper, spic and span at all times.  Nothing, ever, tarnishes the Empress.

 

There's a hoary old story about a neophyte at the Court of the Chinese Emperor.  He asked a more seasoned hand what he should do if the Emperor were to break wind in his presence.  He was told to prostrate himself and beg forgiveness for having done something so rude.

 

Emperor's aren't even allowed to have normal body functions.

 

Of course, being Tuon's father meant he still cares about the girl as he does for his own children (which makes sense, given that she is) yet he'd not be allowed to mention it to anyone or he'd be 'tarnishing the Empress' honor' and have his head chopped off before he could blink.

 

I think it played a large part in the Empress' decision to assign him to Tuon's bodyguard. After all, what single person would be more dedicated to her safety than her own father?

[Bob T Dwarf]

cloglord -

 

Karede also had a third son, I believe, the one who was killed rescuing others during the Great Fire of Soshima.

 

Like Jehaine says, ( to throw an old show tune into this ) Whatever Lola Wants, Lola Gets.  When you're property of the Empress, may she live forever, and she indicates that she wants you, you don't even act like you feel the least bit reluctant.  Married or not.

[cloglord]

I don't buy it Bob.  I mean there are certain physiological barriers to performing the act itself if he's not interested.  He's highly dutiful to his empress, but also to his wife.  The type of emotional turmoil we are talking about here is not to be just brushed aside.

 

The other thing that I just thought of, if that most of the information that we have about Furyke's life comes from a Furyke POV.  Surely in his internal reminiscences he would have at least thought about Tuon being his daughter, if it were the case.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Disagree.

 

Karede is an extremely disciplined man.  Loyal, dutiful, devoted to the Empress and the society of his birth.

 

He won't even allow himself to think about things that must never be spoken.  He won't allow himself to moon over things that can never happen.  If it were otherwise, he would just end up destroying himself and his family.

 

That would be a failure of duty and responsibility.

[cloglord]

You mean to intimate that you think Furyk has an internal block about his illicit paternity of the next heir to the seanchan throne?

 

And I'm sorry, mindful of the danger of devolving below the pg-13 limitations, duty never helped anyone get over ED.  Its a little hard to get a guy to impregnate someone against their will.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nobody has ever said, so far as I know, that 20 years ago the Empress was not a very desirable woman.

 

Do you know any 21 year old guys who would be unwilling?

[cloglord]

Any 21 year old guys that are unwilling to cheat on their wives?  Yeah I know of a few.