The "Lanfear to Cyndane" problem

[balefireruinssteaks]

I guess you'd have to figure out just how powerful Lanfear was. So that if you cut her power in half, is that still enough for her to be amongst the most powerful channelers?

 

Let's say Siuane was a level 5 channeler, among the top channelers in this Age.  And she was Healed and now she's a level 1 or 2. 

 

Lanfear would have been a level 10 maybe, the most powerful.  Cutting her in half would leave her at a level 5 or 6 and then you would have to determine if everyone around who is considered powerful is a level 5 or 6?  or are they higher?

 

So this is why I also think that Cyndane's power drop was from something else, because Lanfear would have had to have been significantly more powerful than just about everyone in order to STILL be amongst the most powerful Forsaken AFTER her power got cut in half.  That would make Lanfear's original power level staggering indeed.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Im not sure about that. But I think it goes without saying that Rand is definitely level 10, which means Taim is as well.

[grump]

Luckers,  Mats medallion proves the fins can negate the one power. So it can't be said they couldn't limit someones power. Just because there was a big commotion on our side of the door doesnt mean  that it was the same on arrival in finnland and if there was no flash of light there they both conformed to all the rules of trade. There are no wishes involved, only the answers to 3 questions.  It is questions about the dark that are dangerous not people of the dark. Also it had been so long since regular visits the finns seemed eagar to trade with anyone who showed up. The eelfins have already proven themselves to be sneaky and under handed in how they dealt with Mat. They gave him something different than he asked for, then tried to negate the whole deal by hanging him.

I believe they trade with her for the only asset she had then shafted her on the way out, leaving the DO with the choice of losing her or reserecting her.

 

When things get too complex my head hurts

[bRANDan]

There are no wishes involved, only the answers to 3 questions.

 

Aelfinns give you answers, Eelfinn give you wishes.

[Luckers]

The main argument i find thats against Lanfear/Cyndane being healed by a woman is that Siuan was one of the strongest Aes Sedai before she was stilled, bested only by Moiraine and Cadsuane i believe (maybe Elaida too). And when shes healed she is like what? Bottom 10 or something. And Cyndane is stronger then Moghedien and about the same strenght as Graendal. While Suian is going from top 3 among the Aes Sedai to the bottom 10, Lanfear goes from (probably) No.1 she is still among the top 10 of female channelers.

 

This is actually misleading--whilst Siuan's decline in social status (which results from strength) is dramatic, her actual decline in strength is not. The reason for this is that the Aes Sedai range of strengths is very limited, therefore small differences in strength result in dramatic differences in social standing.

 

In the line of the actual facts that we know, out of a scale of one hundred the Aes Sedai cut off strength (the strength you need to be stronger than in order to gain the shawl) is at 36.2 (as per RJ ToR QotW comment). As of CoT we know for a certainty that Siuan and Leane are both above that strength (Egwene speaks of four of Akkarin's friends as being weaker than Siuan--and Akkarin herself, plus one other at the same strength as Siuan).

 

Now, where Siuan and Leane sat to begin with, specifically, we don't know. We know that she, along with Moiraine, Lelaine, Elaida and Romanda stood equal above every other Aes Sedai other than Cadsuane, and that she stood considerably higher--but even Cadsuane stands below Egwene, who stands below Nynaeve, who stands below Graendal, who stands below Cyndane, who stands below Lanfear (who is the top).

 

The point being the Aes Sedai upper limit is not very high. Were Siuan and Leane to lose around 10 units of the power it would drop them from being at the top to well below the average--and thats assuming the average is on the median. In point of fact we know that that is all they lost--to lose more would have dropped them below the cut off, and we know that is not the case.

 

Meanwhile, a similar loss to Lanfear would only leave her around 90, still incredibly powerful. Indeed RJ had a 21 level system on which all women who could channel were listed. On that system it only marks the descent of a single level.

 

Luckers,  Mats medallion proves the fins can negate the one power. So it can't be said they couldn't limit someones power.

 

Firstly, that medallion was constructed by Aes Sedai (my guess as payment for wishes, but meh). We know such ter'angreal are rare--it had to be produced between the beginning of the breaking and when the knowledge of how to make ter'angreal was lost, also during the breaking, so at best during a 300 year period. Only two other such were made that we know of.

 

So no, 'they' can't negate the One Power, or limit it either. Even if they had another like the one they gave Mat, which i consider unlikely, we know for a fact that they didn't use it against Lanfear because she reacted with shock when encountering Nynaeve's version of the same.

 

Just because there was a big commotion on our side of the door doesnt mean  that it was the same on arrival in finnland and if there was no flash of light there they both conformed to all the rules of trade.

 

Well, suggestively we do know that, the light and fire came from within the ter'angreal--Rand comments on it specifically. "The two women disapeared through the ter'angreal in a flash of light that did not end. It filled the subtly twisted doorway as if trying to flood through and hitting some invisible barrier. Lightnings arched from it growing more and more violent."

 

Beyond that, though, the Finn are not genies magically bound to serve humanity. Even if there were no forbidden light the women destroyed a valued source of trade. One does not trade with a person who kicked your door down and stopped you from ever being able to trade again. Given that, and that we know for a fact that the Finns reacted negatively towards the women, and that the women having both been burned out would not have been able to resist, then i find it absurd to the point of impossibility that either would have been offered wishes. Especially not the one as closely linked to the shadow as is possible to be.

 

There are no wishes involved, only the answers to 3 questions.

 

They fell through the Eelfinn's door--they offer wishes not answers.

 

It is questions about the dark that are dangerous not people of the dark.

 

And you got that from where, precisely? Moiraine states only that questions that touch on the Dark are met with harsh reprisal, you have nothing to sustain the suggestion that that is as far as it goes. Quite clearly implied, however, is a direct aversion to the shadow.

 

 

[Majsju]

Firstly, that medallion was constructed by Aes Sedai (my guess as payment for wishes, but meh). We know such ter'angreal are rare--it had to be produced between the beginning of the breaking and when the knowledge of how to make ter'angreal was lost, also during the breaking, so at best during a 300 year period. Only two other such were made that we know of.

 

That timing is not necessarily true. I guess you place it there because female Aes Sedai would have wanted protection against crazy male channelers, but in that case, why does it protect against Saidar as well?

 

To me it seems more likley that it was constructed during the War of Power, where there really was a need for protection against both Saidin and Saidar.

Or perhaps even earlier, at a direct request by the Finns.

[Luckers]

That timing is not necessarily true. I guess you place it there because female Aes Sedai would have wanted protection against crazy male channelers, but in that case, why does it protect against Saidar as well?

 

To me it seems more likley that it was constructed during the War of Power, where there really was a need for protection against both Saidin and Saidar.

Or perhaps even earlier, at a direct request by the Finns.

 

Well no, I place it there because all of the Forsaken react to it, and those like it, with shock. Were it created in the War of the Power i rather think it would have been commented on--and more specifically mass produced. Yes, we know that major industry failed pretty quickly, but one person, making one a day....

 

As for the bit about saidin and saidar--the ter'angreal don't differentiate, but Cadsuane states it better than I, saying she believed Nynaeve's jewllery to have been made at the same time as her ournaments 'during the Breaking of the World, when an Aes Sedai might find many hands turned against her, most especially those of men who could channel.'

 

Especially men, but all hands. Her swallow also senses women channeling, remember. As does Nynaeve's ring, and whichever of her ter'angreal breaks created weaves worked well enough against Semirhage. The Forsaken were surprised by those ter'angreal too, remember.

 

All in all i'd state the period their creation could cover to be during the Breaking. I suppose it doesn't make much difference, adding at best ten years, but meh....

 

[Majsju]

I do not think mass production of it would have made much of a difference during the war of Power, since it is quite easy to get to the wearer if they think about it for a bit. As Mat has noticed a few times already. Massproduction increases the chances of your opponent finding the weaknesses, and thus rendering it more or less useless.

 

Making a few for covert ops though...

 

And just because Cadsuane thinks her gadgets were made during the Breaking, she is not necessarily correct. It is not like they came with a receipt and a users manual...

[Luckers]

Again, it's not much of an issue... add a decade to my comment and it's all done with.

 

But yes, I still disagree. The Forsaken's complete lack of experience with that type of ter'angreal--and others in the same set--shows more than enough for me. I mean really, you'd think there'd be a memo--these people were in charge, remember.

 

As for mass-production, i don't know if I credit your counter-argument. Cyndane, with no prior experience of these ter'angreal, recognized the weakness within seconds. I don't see how a desire to keep that secret would work against the obvious military benefits of having soldiers wearing such ter'angreal in battle--yes in one on one there are weaknesses, but in battle it would mean surviving fireballs, blossoms of fire, fire arrows, being ripped apart and doubtlessly more.

 

Indeed, it would seem to me that this is greatest use for such devices.

[Red2111]

i don't think there was any stilling or healing involved with Cyndane when Lanfear was transferred to her body.  there wasn't enough time, and she didn't connect with anoe who could.  by the time Mohegidien met her, Cyndane could already channel, in fact "the Spider" commented on it in her first PoV with Cyndane.

 

i think it's just the DO playing at his game again. like putting a male forsaken in Aran'gars body.  a cruel joke for failing him.  he knew that Lanfear diseiered power, so as punishment for both failing him and trying to turn traitor he took away most of her power.  leavign just strong enough to make it itht he forsaken, but just so.  i think Mohgedien said soemthign to the effect that Cyndane was just as strong or a little stronger than her in the power.

 

 

and while i haven't read the last book yet (just finished CoT last night) i still don't see any evidence as to who was remade into Aran'gar or Morridin or Shadar Haron(possibly); not like Cyndane(Lanfear) and Osan'gar(Asmodean).  if there is a thread proving this, with quotes; then please post it for me.  I'm willing to agree that it might be Ishamael that was re-born into Morridin;' he's always talked abotu being the most powerful and scary forsaken, most likely to be name Nea'Blis (at least thats the feeling i got from the little the forsaken have actually talked about him)  the other Forsaken i just don't knwo their personalities enough to judge them as being reborn into those bodies.

[Mr Ares]

i don't think there was any stilling or healing involved with Cyndane when Lanfear was transferred to her body.  there wasn't enough time, and she didn't connect with anoe who could.  by the time Mohegidien met her, Cyndane could already channel, in fact "the Spider" commented on it in her first PoV with Cyndane.

 

i think it's just the DO playing at his game again. like putting a male forsaken in Aran'gars body.  a cruel joke for failing him.  he knew that Lanfear diseiered power, so as punishment for both failing him and trying to turn traitor he took away most of her power.  leavign just strong enough to make it itht he forsaken, but just so.  i think Mohgedien said soemthign to the effect that Cyndane was just as strong or a little stronger than her in the power.

 

 

and while i haven't read the last book yet (just finished CoT last night) i still don't see any evidence as to who was remade into Aran'gar or Morridin or Shadar Haron(possibly); not like Cyndane(Lanfear) and Osan'gar(Asmodean).  if there is a thread proving this, with quotes; then please post it for me.  I'm willing to agree that it might be Ishamael that was re-born into Morridin;' he's always talked abotu being the most powerful and scary forsaken, most likely to be name Nea'Blis (at least thats the feeling i got from the little the forsaken have actually talked about him)  the other Forsaken i just don't knwo their personalities enough to judge them as being reborn into those bodies.

Graendal notes that men that are stronger than her are a rarity, and women even more so. Yet she also notes Cyndane as being stronger than her. The evidence we have indicates that Cyndane is still right near the top in terms of strength. Furthermore, Shai'tan weakening Cyndane in that way is counterproductive - she is a tool, and her abilities are being impaired to no gain. Why would Shai'tan do that? Aran'gar results in both a cruel joke and a uniques case of a saidin channeling woman - useful for infiltration purposes, as noone is looking for one. Hence being used in such a manner.

 

As for the reborn Chosen, Aran'gar is womaniser Balthamel (hence it being a joke), Osan'gar is Aginor, Moridin is philosopher Ishamael, Cyndane is Lanfear (obviously), Asmo hasn't come back and almost certainly won't, and Shaidar Haran never was one of the others, it is just a Superfade.

[Luckers]

i don't think there was any stilling or healing involved with Cyndane when Lanfear was transferred to her body.  there wasn't enough time, and she didn't connect with anoe who could.  by the time Mohegidien met her, Cyndane could already channel, in fact "the Spider" commented on it in her first PoV with Cyndane.

 

The Spider did no such thing. We never get a POV from Moghedian when she interacts with Cyndane, nor do we get a POV that even shows Cyndane exists prior to the Graendal POV, which is long after she was recycled.

 

As for time... Lanfear was severed when she passed through the ter'angreal, and would have been healed within days, if not hours, of being recycled. Such presents no problems considering the Rebels knew Traveling by that stage.

 

i think it's just the DO playing at his game again. like putting a male forsaken in Aran'gars body.  a cruel joke for failing him.  he knew that Lanfear diseiered power, so as punishment for both failing him and trying to turn traitor he took away most of her power.  leavign just strong enough to make it itht he forsaken, but just so.  i think Mohgedien said soemthign to the effect that Cyndane was just as strong or a little stronger than her in the power.

 

That makes no sense. The Dark One had had Lanfear bound by cour'souvra, ensuring complete control. beyond that the Dark One had displayed his active awareness and appreciation for the strength and knowledge of his Chosen. Indeed RJ has commented directly on that being important to him. To limit her power then does nothing more than to criple himself.

 

and while i haven't read the last book yet (just finished CoT last night) i still don't see any evidence as to who was remade into Aran'gar or Morridin or Shadar Haron(possibly); not like Cyndane(Lanfear) and Osan'gar(Asmodean).  if there is a thread proving this, with quotes; then please post it for me.  I'm willing to agree that it might be Ishamael that was re-born into Morridin;' he's always talked abotu being the most powerful and scary forsaken, most likely to be name Nea'Blis (at least thats the feeling i got from the little the forsaken have actually talked about him)  the other Forsaken i just don't knwo their personalities enough to judge them as being reborn into those bodies.

 

Aran'gar is Balthemel, Moridin is Ishamael, Osen'gar is Aginor--not Asmodean, Asmodean has died the final death, as the Dark One himself put it--Shaidar Haren is uncertain, but most probably a part of the Dark Ones personality manifested in a physical body.

 

 

[Red2111]

^even if Lanfear was stilled going through the door (the same woudl have happened to Moraine and that would seriously dappen her ability to help in TG) sightblinder would have no problem bending the pattern like he did with Osa'gar and Aran'gar, giving Lanfear a new body and restoring her ability to channel.  he has as much power as the creator in that sense and can do as he wish so long as he can touch the part needed.

 

edit-- besides i'm of the opinion, because Moriane is supposed to be still alive according to her letter to Mat.  Lanfear was killed due to an exchange made by Moraine to the Elfin.  Moraine had seen what was goign to happen and there for knew where to be, what to say and how to act according to the situation; therefor she had the ability to set Lanfear up for the ultamate fall.  thought i'm not saying Moraine will come out from this in perfect condition; as pointed out by Mat, the Elfin would cheat they're grandma if they could.

 

the only person comparing themselves to Cyndane that i can remember is Mohgedien (i'm on book 11 now so i very well could have not gotten to that part) so i can't really counter that as of yet.  if it happened in one of the books i've already read.  please let me know where so i can go back and re-read the part.

 

(i come from an HP site where we debated the book and cited ref's to the book.  understandably, HP is no where near as complexe nor as long.  4 RJ books equaling the whole HP series as far as page numbers lmao)

 

 

as for the reborn forsaken, i'm sorry but i can only agree with who Moridin is (also i believe Mordin, and Slayer and this Luc fellow are the same; just a feeling)  Cyndane is obvious to those who can't even read between the lines, so i don't bother meshing her in with it ;)

 

because i don't lnow much about Bel'al, Balthamel, or Aringor  i can't say if they match the personality to Aran'gar or Osan'gar.

 

Osang'ar i'm almost 100% convinced is Asmodaen.  referring to himself as 'a Genus', complaining about having to be in the front lines, and skulking aroudn in the shadows.  As far as i can remember, asmodean was well noted for his brains being the best quality in him, mostlikely the only reason he was made a Forsaken.  he's like Mohgedien, more apt to attack from the shadows and only when he see's the upper hand.  which is exactly how Osan'gar acted at Shadar Logoth.  also it sticks to me that he knew without having to get a clear picture that the male channeling was Rand.  while it was probably a common belief between the Forsaken that this was the work of the Dragon Reborn, the only male who would know his shape and know it's him without a doubt and not see his features would be Asmodaen because of how close they were for almost a year.  

 

as for Aran'gar, i'm more apt to believing it's Rahvin reborn.  Rahvin was actually protrayed as a womanizer for how he treated Morgase.  having 10 women as well as her bed him at the same time.  Rahvin was said to have been as bad as Semirage with his "pretty's"

[Majsju]

Sorry Red, but you are very wrong.

 

Rahvin can not possibly be recycled as Aran'gar, or anyone else for that matter. Rahvin and Be'lal were balefired, ie no coming back for them, ever.

 

Also, early in KOD Aran'gar makes a comment that definitly identifies her as Balthamel.

 

As for Asmodean, first of all the DO flat out stated there was no coming back for him. "The final death" leaves no room for interpretation. Also, Aginor was the genius, mad scientist. Asmo was a musician, extremely talented, but not enough to be called a genius.

 

Slayer is definitly not Moridin. See WH for Slayers comment about how he is doing the forsakens biddings. Well, Moridin is Nae'blis, so is giving the other forsaken orders.

 

 

[Red2111]

i will have to re-read where Demandred goes to see the DO in LoC, i sort of remember the "final death thing" but not really.

 

i have to agree with you on the Bale Fire thing though.  i think it was Moraine who said Bale fire ripped them out of the pattern.  i had to think for a minute on how Rahvin died because thers no death show down like with Sammael lol  (which was a major let down, all this drama leading up to Rand laying the smack down and RJ just skips it lmao  i was looking forward to seeing Rahvin bitch slapped a few times around the lion throne)

 

i haven't read that last book yet, so when i do read the comment i will be sure to post that i was wrong.

 

i knew it was a stretch for saying Morridin and Slayer being the same, "just a feeling" remember.  so is Slayer like a Gohlam or Grey man, just a hand for hire doign the DO's bidding, or is he a forsaken re-born as well.

 

for some reason i also have a feeling that Slayer will be leading the Dark Hounds in TG, if he isn't already doing so.

 

 

(note to self, must stop conspiring and read last book ASAP lmao)

[Luckers]

even if Lanfear was stilled going through the door (the same woudl have happened to Moraine and that would seriously dappen her ability to help in TG) sightblinder would have no problem bending the pattern like he did with Osa'gar and Aran'gar, giving Lanfear a new body and restoring her ability to channel.  he has as much power as the creator in that sense and can do as he wish so long as he can touch the part needed.

 

Firstly, the same did happen to Moiraine, which we know as a fact since her bond to Lan was snapped, which can only be caused by being severed and dying, and Moiraine did not die. I don't see who that stops her from having an effect in TG though--she will simply be healed--by a man, im hoping, though thats not certain.

 

Secondly, transmigration does not effect the state of channeling, which we know thanks to the fact that Aran'gar channels saidin, and he and his fellows all retain precisely the same strength. Her ability to channel would not have been restored.

 

As for the Dark One having as much power as the creator--perhaps he does, or perhaps he doesn't... indeed, perhaps he has more. But what evidence do you have to suggest that the Creator could have achieved that?

 

the only person comparing themselves to Cyndane that i can remember is Mohgedien (i'm on book 11 now so i very well could have not gotten to that part) so i can't really counter that as of yet.  if it happened in one of the books i've already read.  please let me know where so i can go back and re-read the part.

 

Once again, Moghedian has never compared herself to Cyndane that we have seen. We have never had a POV from Moghedian in which Cyndane was present, nor even a POV in which Moghedian thinks about Cyndane.

 

(i come from an HP site where we debated the book and cited ref's to the book.  understandably, HP is no where near as complexe nor as long.  4 RJ books equaling the whole HP series as far as page numbers lmao)

 

We do that here, too, but I cannot cite what has not occured. Moghedian never compared herself to Cyndane.

 

as for the reborn forsaken, i'm sorry but i can only agree with who Moridin is (also i believe Mordin, and Slayer and this Luc fellow are the same; just a feeling)

 

Slayer is an amalgamation of two men--Luc Mantear and Isam Mandragoran. Luc, who was Tigraine's brother, and Rand's uncle, was sent north to the Blight by Gitara Moroso on a foretelling just before she sent Tigraine to the Waste, and he disapeared there. Isam, Lan's cousin and the son of the man who betrayed Malkier to the Shadow, was taken as a child during the fall of Malkier. They were... combined... by the Shadow. Both men currently exist within a single person, Slayer. Slayer can enter and exit Tel'aran'rhiod, and in that change can change himself between the bodies of Luc and Isam. There is even a Prophecy about it.

 

"Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are."

 

Neither are Moridin, or related to him. Moridin is Ishamael, born Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

Osang'ar i'm almost 100% convinced is Asmodaen.  referring to himself as 'a Genus', complaining about having to be in the front lines, and skulking aroudn in the shadows.  As far as i can remember, asmodean was well noted for his brains being the best quality in him, mostlikely the only reason he was made a Forsaken.  he's like Mohgedien, more apt to attack from the shadows and only when he see's the upper hand.  which is exactly how Osan'gar acted at Shadar Logoth.  also it sticks to me that he knew without having to get a clear picture that the male channeling was Rand.  while it was probably a common belief between the Forsaken that this was the work of the Dragon Reborn, the only male who would know his shape and know it's him without a doubt and not see his features would be Asmodaen because of how close they were for almost a year.  

 

You are incorrect. Asmodean has died the final death, and will not return. The Dark One himself states this too Demandred in the Lord of Chaos prologue, and in those words. Aginor is Osen'gar--in his introduction Osen'gar remembers creating the Trollocs and the like--his genuis was that, the making of shadowspawn. That is why he was never a soldier.

 

As a side note, Asmodean was never remarked for his intelligence. He was a noted composer of music, and served the Shadow during the war as an administrator of captured lands. Nothing more.

 

as for Aran'gar, i'm more apt to believing it's Rahvin reborn.  Rahvin was actually protrayed as a womanizer for how he treated Morgase.  having 10 women as well as her bed him at the same time.  Rahvin was said to have been as bad as Semirage with his "pretty's"

 

Rahvin was destroyed by balefire, and as such cannot be recycled. Aran'gar is Balthemel. She cites several times that she was once a historian, remarks on how she was nearly bound with the power against violence, something only Balthemel and Semirhage experienced.

 

 

If i may suggest, you should look into this website. http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html It is a useful guide as to what is and is not known as fact--though it hasn't been updated for some time, and is  wrong in a few cases.

[Leopoled Boothe]

as for the reborn forsaken, i'm sorry but i can only agree with who Moridin is (also i believe Mordin, and Slayer and this Luc fellow are the same; just a feeling)  Cyndane is obvious to those who can't even read between the lines, so i don't bother meshing her in with it

 

So if if read this correctly you are agreeing that Moridin is Ishameal.  I agree with that, but Slayer on the other hand, is not Ishameal.  Slayer is a combination of Isam a Malkieri and cousin to Lan, and Luc, a member of house Trakand who I blieve would be Rand's biological uncle.  Each traveled into the blight and while there were somehow melded into one being.  We really don't know the details of how of why this occured but Slayer has been refered to as both Luc and Isam so it a pretty safe bet that he was formed from those two individuals.

 

Osang'ar i'm almost 100% convinced is Asmodaen.  referring to himself as 'a Genus', complaining about having to be in the front lines, and skulking aroudn in the shadows.  As far as i can remember, asmodean was well noted for his brains being the best quality in him, mostlikely the only reason he was made a Forsaken.  he's like Mohgedien, more apt to attack from the shadows and only when he see's the upper hand.  which is exactly how Osan'gar acted at Shadar Logoth.  also it sticks to me that he knew without having to get a clear picture that the male channeling was Rand.  while it was probably a common belief between the Forsaken that this was the work of the Dragon Reborn, the only male who would know his shape and know it's him without a doubt and not see his features would be Asmodaen because of how close they were for almost a year.  

 

It is very unlikely that Osan'gar is Asmodean.  First off in the prolouge to "Lord of Chaos" the DO states that Asmodean "died the final death.Moreover, it would make sense for Aginor to complain about having to be on the front lines because in the AOL he was not a soldier but a geneticist who's main contribution to the Shadow was creating the Trollocs and other shadowspawn.  Given his ability to create shadowspawn he would also qualify as a genius if a rather twisted one.  He would also be able to identify Rand because he spent several months with Rand disguised as Dashiva.

 

as for Aran'gar, i'm more apt to believing it's Rahvin reborn.  Rahvin was actually protrayed as a womanizer for how he treated Morgase.  having 10 women as well as her bed him at the same time.  Rahvin was said to have been as bad as Semirage with his "pretty's"

 

Wrong again.  Also in the prolouge of LOC the DO expresses his regret at being unable to recycle Rhavin, because Rhavin had served him well.  Rhavin, of couse, could not be brought back because he was hit with a rather large amount of balefire.  There has be some debate as to whether Be'lal could be brought back as he was hit with a rather small amout of balefire, but with Rhavin there can be no doubt that he was balefired right out of the game.

[Luckers]

Luc, a member of house Trakand who I blieve would be Rand's biological uncle.

 

Luc was a member of house Mantear, who held the Lion Throne at that time. House Trakand only took the throne after Tigraine disapear and Queen Mordrellen died. Prior to that it was held by Mantear.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Luc was a member of house Mantear, who held the Lion Throne at that time. House Trakand only took the throne after Tigraine disapear and Queen Mordrellen died. Prior to that it was held by Mantear.

 

Thanks for the refresher, Luckers, I knew he was tied in with Camlyen and with Rand's family in some way.  Whatever, the case he definitly is not Moridin (LOL).

 

Secondly, transmigration does not effect the state of channeling, which we know thanks to the fact that Aran'gar channels saidin, and he and his fellows all retain precisely the same strength. Her ability to channel would not have been restored.

 

Yes, but there is one key difference you fail to consider.  We know that what you have said is true for male souls as Ishameal, Aginor and Balthamal were all men.  Lanfear, on the other hand, is female and it could be that the channeling of Saidar is more dependent on the body than is the channeling of Saidin. If this is the case than Lanfear would naturally suffer a decrease in power when placed in the body of a weaker channeler.  It has been commented several times in the series that there are some inherent differneces between Saiden and Saidar and this could be one of them.  It is hard to say for sure as no other female souls have been transmigrated so we have no base of comparison.  None the less, we must keep in mind that this key difference between Lanfear and the other three trasmigrated Forsaken does exist and could be a factor in her decrease in power. 

 

 

 

 

[Leopoled Boothe]

I have to agree with you on the Bale Fire thing though.  i think it was Moraine who said Bale fire ripped them out of the pattern.  i had to think for a minute on how Rahvin died because thers no death show down like with Sammael lol  (which was a major let down, all this drama leading up to Rand laying the smack down and RJ just skips it lmao  i was looking forward to seeing Rahvin bitch slapped a few times around the lion throne)

 

What are you talking about, dude?  There was a huge battle scene between Rand and Rhavin which invloved Rand chasing Rhavin all through the Sun Palace and finally into TAR.  Once in TAR Rhavin got the upperhand and might have defeated Rand had Rand not gotten an assist from his old village Wisdom.  This assist distracted Rhavin enough to allow Rand the oppertunity to balefire his a$$ right out of the pattern.  It stands as one of my favorite one on one battles in the entire series.  Honestly, you need to go back and read the series again.  And please pay attention this time.

[Luckers]

Yes, but there is one key difference you fail to consider.  We know that what you have said is true for male souls as Ishameal, Aginor and Balthamal were all men.  Lanfear, on the other hand, is female and it could be that the channeling of Saidar is more dependent on the body than is the channeling of Saidin. If this is the case than Lanfear would naturally suffer a decrease in power when placed in the body of a weaker channeler.  It has been commented several times in the series that there are some inherent differneces between Saiden and Saidar and this could be one of them.  It is hard to say for sure as no other female souls have been transmigrated so we have no base of comparison.  None the less, we must keep in mind that this key difference between Lanfear and the other three trasmigrated Forsaken does exist and could be a factor in her decrease in power. 

 

Yet there is no evidence to suggest any of that. And indeed, suggestive evidence against it in the Cabrianna suggestion.

 

Against the facts that we know Lanfear was severed from the source, and that we know power-declines result from being healed by a woman to a similar degree that we witness in Lanfear....

[Asmo]

What? When was it confirmed that Lanfear was severed inside the doorframe ter'angreal? Anyway, since Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar retained the power they had as Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor respectively, I doubt Lanfear would come out weaker from ressurection "just because". And RJ's statement that being healed from Stilling by a member of the same gender puts that damper to your strength in the Power can explain this, but I miss any confirmation that Lanfear was actually Stilled (much less killed) by Moiraine or the Finn.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Yet there is no evidence to suggest any of that.

 

Well yes, I grant you that.  In fact I already stated that there was no evidence when I pointed out that there were no other cases of famale transmigration on which to make a comparison.  What I'm getting at here is that you can't draw definitive conclusions about what will occur when a female soul is transmigrated based solely on what occurs when male souls are trasmigrated.  There is still a variable (gender) which has not been controled for so drawing the conclusion that all souls retain their stregnth in The Power when trasmigrated to a new body based solely on what happens with male souls is just bad science.  Furthermore it is also bad logic, what you are saying is this:

 

All males have souls

All females have souls

All souls can be trasmigrated.

All male souls ratain their full stregnth after trasmigration.

Therefore all souls ratain their full stregnth after trasmigration

 

Do you see the flawed logic there?  You can't definativly conculded that all souls retain their full stregnth after trasmigration because gender remains an uncontroled variable, and therefore an alternative possiblity exists.  Particularly you cannot draw this conclusion within the context of WOT, because one of the recurring themes is that there are inherent differnences between males and females (RJ loves to emphasize that) and between Saidar and Saiden.

 

And indeed, suggestive evidence against it in the Cabrianna suggestion.

 

How is this evidence against it?  Cabrianna, a third age AS would clearly be weaker in the power than Lanfear, one of the most powerfull channelers ever known.  Therefore, if Lanfear was put in Cabrianna's body she was indeed put in a weaker body and if my suggestion about female trasmigration is true she would naturally experience a diminshed stregnth in the power.  Note I did not suggest that Lanfear would be brought all the way down to Cabrianna's stregnth.  I merely suggested that stregnth in Saidar is more dependent on the body than is stregnth in Saidin, therefore Cabrianna's body would put some limitations on Cyndane's stregnth.  If anything this is suggestive evidence for it.

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

you would have to go back and figure out if the description of Cyndane as a "boxoum" type is parallel with a description of Cabriana as well.

 

I hadn't thought that they may have used her body.

[Cybertrolloc]

Lanfear stilled isn't way out there, but it's not proven. Moiraine stilled = likely (Lan). Lanfear had been channeling through an angreal that Mo batted out of her hand before they went through the door. That's a recipe for burning out, but then Lanfear is pretty capable with the power and all.

 

you would have to go back and figure out if the description of Cyndane as a "boxoum" type is parallel with a description of Cabriana as well.

 

I hadn't thought that they may have used her body.

Cyndane: long silver hair, "vivid" blus eyes, short, bosomy, breathy voice.

Cabriana: long blond hair, pale blue eyes. She has a bit part in New Spring which I don't have now. I'll check the Semi passage, but I don't think there's anything there to describe voice, height or bosom.