Cadsuane

[Charlz Guybon]

Moiraine looked at Rand steadily, and ignored the last.  "I must tell you of one more Aes Sedai, Rand.  I last saw Cadsuane Melaidhrin before the Aiel War.  There are rumors of her death, but I will not believe them.  Cadsuane Sedai is Green, and formidable.  She has dealt with several men that could channel, by herself.  I do not know how; it could be through simple force of will.  I know she is not dead because she would not miss the Dragon Reborn - she is too stubborn.  She will seek you out; I believe that she will have your best interests at heart,and that her advice will be true, but you must use the same caution as with any Aes Sedai." 

 

Perhaps too much, but Moiraine does know of her; she does know that she was alive only 20 years earlier, she knows that she is drawn to male channelers, and she must know that Cadsuane will seek out Rand.  It is a dereliction of her life's purpose to have left Rand unprepared for Cadsuane.  That is why I think Cadsuane was a late addition.  However, RJ's intro was seemless, his background fits, and NS confirms her pre-existence.  This is excellent plot development.  Of course, again, I could be wrong.  Many of the folks that I respect the most on the site are arrayed against my opinion, and have many good arguments against it.  If RJ had every eventuality mapped from start to finish at the outset, then I am obviously wrong.  I think as he wrote, his world expanded, and needed more.  I remain unconvinced. Not something that will be revealed in AMOL!

Moriane suspected Caddy was black ajah, I don't see her being so sanguine about the prospect of her coming into contact with Rand.

[Harmless Bandit]

I find it strange that people are amazed that she succeeded in capturing many men who can channel. She would probably be dead if not for her ornaments, and in some way she kinda hide behind them (but I understand).

 

I would like to see a Cadsuane without them. Sure kidnapping kings is no small feat, but why should I be impressed that she did it? That is just plain bullying. Imagine if that was done to her. I bet she would be fuming.

 

And old habits die hard. I have a very hard time seeing her defer to a stronger but younger Sister. Can anyone remind me again why she can toss 'traditions' and 'rules' out of the window when she is concerned, yet expects others to follow said rules?

 

By the way, this is not a Cadsuane bashing. I respect her as a strong woman, it's just that she comes off as overbearing/arrogant/too self-important etc.

[benr]

Moiraine looked at Rand steadily, and ignored the last.  "I must tell you of one more Aes Sedai, Rand.  I last saw Cadsuane Melaidhrin before the Aiel War.  There are rumors of her death, but I will not believe them.  Cadsuane Sedai is Green, and formidable.  She has dealt with several men that could channel, by herself.  I do not know how; it could be through simple force of will.  I know she is not dead because she would not miss the Dragon Reborn - she is too stubborn.  She will seek you out; I believe that she will have your best interests at heart,and that her advice will be true, but you must use the same caution as with any Aes Sedai." 

 

Perhaps too much, but Moiraine does know of her; she does know that she was alive only 20 years earlier, she knows that she is drawn to male channelers, and she must know that Cadsuane will seek out Rand.  It is a dereliction of her life's purpose to have left Rand unprepared for Cadsuane.  That is why I think Cadsuane was a late addition.  However, RJ's intro was seemless, his background fits, and NS confirms her pre-existence.  This is excellent plot development.  Of course, again, I could be wrong.  Many of the folks that I respect the most on the site are arrayed against my opinion, and have many good arguments against it.  If RJ had every eventuality mapped from start to finish at the outset, then I am obviously wrong.  I think as he wrote, his world expanded, and needed more.  I remain unconvinced. Not something that will be revealed in AMOL!

Moriane suspected Caddy was black ajah, I don't see her being so sanguine about the prospect of her coming into contact with Rand.

All the more reason for her to have warned Rand.

[Luckers]

I find it strange that people are amazed that she succeeded in capturing many men who can channel. She would probably be dead if not for her ornaments, and in some way she kinda hide behind them (but I understand).

 

I would like to see a Cadsuane without them. Sure kidnapping kings is no small feat, but why should I be impressed that she did it? That is just plain bullying. Imagine if that was done to her. I bet she would be fuming.

 

Then look at Sorilea. Same personality type, same strength, no ter'angreal, no strength and still effective.

 

 

[The Lost One]

I am trying to remember, can anyone tell me?  Other than New Spring, are there any references to Cadsuane, by anyone? before she is introduced as a character?  Maybe a small one that was missed or looked over?  For some reason, I thought there was, but I might just be remembering wrong....I would think there would be one or two. 

[benr]

That was more or less my point; in my several re-reads I haven't found any, and other people I know that have read and or listened haven't either.  It isn't proof, but I can't think of any other major character or situation that didn't have some foreshadowing.  There's another thread - any other instances/characters?

[benr]

PS - good point on Sorilea, Luckers.  Just the terangreals (?) don't explain Cadsuane.  Another point:  I don't think Moiraine would have been aware of what Caddy's hairpieces do, necessarily.  I don't have a copy of New Spring to check that, though.  Seems to have taken up residence at my daughter's.

[Guest Dreadlord]

What about the prophecy/whatever, where it was said Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone? At first I thought it would be Moiraine, but it could just as likely be Cadsuane-we know she must teach Rand something important, and people THOUGHT she was dead just as they do Moiraine...? I dont see any other woman who is "dead and gone" other than those two, and they seem to be the only ones who could actually help Rand with his problems

[Luckers]

No that prophecy definately refers to Moiraine--Min sees Moiraine's cousin and thinks it her for a moment, then thinks the bit about the woman dead and gone.

 

By inference the prophecy is that Rand will fail without Moiraine--Min merely thinks her dead and gone.

[benr]

And as I recall, Moiraine's viewings of the possible outcomes of her confrontation with Lanfear showed her that she had to take her (Lanfear) out, even though it meant her "death", or so she thought.  Didn't all of the other scenarios have Rand falling under Lanfear's sway?

[Luckers]

No, it's made clear in KoD that Moiraine knew that it would not reasult in her death. That being said she did know that if she did anything other than tackler Lanfear through the ter'angreal it would result in disaster--either Rand dead or a slave to Lanfear.

[bjclinton]

Moiraine looked at Rand steadily, and ignored the last.  "I must tell you of one more Aes Sedai, Rand.  I last saw Cadsuane Melaidhrin before the Aiel War.  There are rumors of her death, but I will not believe them.  Cadsuane Sedai is Green, and formidable.  She has dealt with several men that could channel, by herself.  I do not know how; it could be through simple force of will.  I know she is not dead because she would not miss the Dragon Reborn - she is too stubborn.  She will seek you out; I believe that she will have your best interests at heart,and that her advice will be true, but you must use the same caution as with any Aes Sedai." 

 

Perhaps too much, but Moiraine does know of her; she does know that she was alive only 20 years earlier, she knows that she is drawn to male channelers, and she must know that Cadsuane will seek out Rand.  It is a dereliction of her life's purpose to have left Rand unprepared for Cadsuane.  That is why I think Cadsuane was a late addition.  However, RJ's intro was seemless, his background fits, and NS confirms her pre-existence.  This is excellent plot development.  Of course, again, I could be wrong.  Many of the folks that I respect the most on the site are arrayed against my opinion, and have many good arguments against it.  If RJ had every eventuality mapped from start to finish at the outset, then I am obviously wrong.  I think as he wrote, his world expanded, and needed more.  I remain unconvinced. Not something that will be revealed in AMOL!

Moriane suspected Caddy was black ajah, I don't see her being so sanguine about the prospect of her coming into contact with Rand.

 

What are you talking about? Moiraine was long gone when Caddy was introduced....and Caddy was never even mentioned before she was introduced.

[benr]

I think it refers to New Spring.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think it refers to New Spring.

Yup

[Harmless Bandit]

I find it strange that people are amazed that she succeeded in capturing many men who can channel. She would probably be dead if not for her ornaments, and in some way she kinda hide behind them (but I understand).

 

I would like to see a Cadsuane without them. Sure kidnapping kings is no small feat, but why should I be impressed that she did it? That is just plain bullying. Imagine if that was done to her. I bet she would be fuming.

 

Then look at Sorilea. Same personality type, same strength, no ter'angreal, no strength and still effective.

 

PS - good point on Sorilea, Luckers.  Just the terangreals (?) don't explain Cadsuane.  Another point:  I don't think Moiraine would have been aware of what Caddy's hairpieces do, necessarily.  I don't have a copy of New Spring to check that, though.  Seems to have taken up residence at my daughter's.

 

I never claimed that the ter'angreal are what make Cadsuane who she is. If you look at my earlier post, I said that she was a strong woman.

 

What I'm getting at is, she has worn those ornaments for so long they have become part of her. If I didn't know that she wore them I would find her actions impressive. Throw in that knowledge, and her legendary status suddenly is diminished. Just how many Sisters know she has them? Consider Lan for example. With a sword he is deadly. Without one he is deadly. The same goes for Rand (even without channeling). But some people, without a weapon, become suddenly helpless.

 

Which is not what I'm claiming about Caddy. She is a strong woman, but she relies on them too much. The same way she relies on her being Aes Sedai to command respect (as all of them do), though to a lesser extent.

 

Now, Sorilea is another case. She is who she is by herself, it's her strength of will that got her where she is. I can't see a non-channeling Cadsuane being as effective as Sorilea.

[trakand_01]

In CoT, when Elayne has returned from her Jaunt out to the nobles houses, and just before Zaida informs her that... Zarine? Has been killed (which I missed - when did that happen!?), she meets with Reene Harfor and Master Norry who give their reports. Zarine speaks of Aes Sedai at the White Swan in the city.

 

In Elayne's POV we learn that there had been a name spoken amongst the Aes Sedai, a name spoken and quickly shushed. Cadsuane. Elayne reasons that it must be Cadsuane Melaihdrin but I dont think that she knows of her from any other source so I'm guessing she's heard the name during her time in the WT.

 

My question is - why would they shush people speaking her name? Did she do something? Did something happen to her? Surely an AS thought to be dead but now found to be alive would be a wondrous thing for the WT, why would they keep shushing?

[wvlr]

I don't have my ORIGINAL copy of New Spring on me.    The one from Leagonds?    Does anyone else have it?    Not the Expanded Stand Alone Version.

 

Does the original version even  mention Caddy?    I think not.    That would add to the possibility the she was a later addition or show that she had been in the mix for a while.

[aevogt]

I look at Cadsuane as a little bit like the WoT version of the Lone Ranger.

 

Everyone thinks she's dead for starters, just like the LR.

 

Take away the Lone Ranger's silver bullets and he's not just another guy in a mask.  they were just a trademark.

 

Same with Cadsuane and her toys.  She would be the imposing bossy hag we have all come to know and love (or Hate).  Granted, without a weave dispelling terangreal, she might be a little more circumspect in confronting men who can channel, but confront them she would.

[Kadere]

I don't have my ORIGINAL copy of New Spring on me.    The one from Leagonds?    Does anyone else have it?     Not the Expanded Stand Alone Version.

 

Does the original version even  mention Caddy?     I think not.     That would add to the possibility the she was a later addition or show that she had been in the mix for a while.

 

Yes Cadsuane is in the Legends short story version of New Spring. In the same place she's in the novel version. The only added expanded parts of New Spring were before Moiraine goes north.

[bjclinton]

Moiraine looked at Rand steadily, and ignored the last.  "I must tell you of one more Aes Sedai, Rand.  I last saw Cadsuane Melaidhrin before the Aiel War.  There are rumors of her death, but I will not believe them.  Cadsuane Sedai is Green, and formidable.  She has dealt with several men that could channel, by herself.  I do not know how; it could be through simple force of will.  I know she is not dead because she would not miss the Dragon Reborn - she is too stubborn.  She will seek you out; I believe that she will have your best interests at heart,and that her advice will be true, but you must use the same caution as with any Aes Sedai." 

 

Perhaps too much, but Moiraine does know of her; she does know that she was alive only 20 years earlier, she knows that she is drawn to male channelers, and she must know that Cadsuane will seek out Rand.  It is a dereliction of her life's purpose to have left Rand unprepared for Cadsuane.  That is why I think Cadsuane was a late addition.  However, RJ's intro was seemless, his background fits, and NS confirms her pre-existence.  This is excellent plot development.  Of course, again, I could be wrong.  Many of the folks that I respect the most on the site are arrayed against my opinion, and have many good arguments against it.  If RJ had every eventuality mapped from start to finish at the outset, then I am obviously wrong.  I think as he wrote, his world expanded, and needed more.  I remain unconvinced. Not something that will be revealed in AMOL!

Moriane suspected Caddy was black ajah, I don't see her being so sanguine about the prospect of her coming into contact with Rand.

 

What are you talking about? Moiraine was long gone when Caddy was introduced....and Caddy was never even mentioned before she was introduced.

 

is the above quote a real quote from the WoT? If so, can you please provide a from where? I have ZERO recollection of that conversation- I can't imagine how I could have missed any mention of Caddy before book 7....certainly one that foreshadows her arrival in the series with Moiraine warning Rand.

[Luckers]

They said it above. Cadsuane is in New Spring.

[bjclinton]

I realize that, but take a look at what I quoted above...its someone quoting an actual conversation between Rand and Moiraine about Cadsuane....i  only read New Spring once, and it was when it first came out, but I dont remember this conversation.

 

Either way, i don't interpret that conversation as her believing Caddy was Black Ajah as is stated in the quoted post- to me, its just another warning from another sister.

 

 

[Majsju]

That "quote" is not from the books, it is written by a reader, probably benr self.

 

That said, Moiraine had some suspicions about Cadsuane being BA in NS, but then, Moiraine was just raised, just sent out on an extremely dangerous mission, and saw darkfriends in every bush. Twenty years of experience, plus the belief that Cadsuane was dead would have put any warning Rand about Cadsuane way down on the list of things Moiraine had to tell him.

[benr]

No, sorry, I was just trying to show how Moiraine could have (and should have) warned Rand about Cadsuane.  There was an earlier reply that said "how was she supposed to warn him, say beware of a dead woman" or some such, and I wanted to spell it out.  My contention is that she was a late addition - I find absolutely no forewarning of her; many disagree.  One result of all this is I have been looking at her closely, and back to comparing her to Sorilea - Caddy and Sorry (hah) have a face to face in PoD, and seem to come out of it with a grudging respect.  Its hard to tell, as it is a Caddy POV, but they seem to agree that they have the same goal - keeping Rand strong, but not hard.  In this case, Caddy's terangreals are of little use.  It is simply strength of character, and it seems a tie.

[benr]

Why is the belief so strong that Caddy is dead?