Has anybody wondered...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, Leopoled, but when I started the thread I figured that if people were willing to discuss the idea at all, let them run with whatever thinking about it sparked.

 

If I try to police it I preclude any accidental insights and those are often he most valuable.  Fleming wasn't trying to invent penicillin, you know.

[Majsju]

The only people I've seen having silvery hair are the Aiel. Could Cyndane be an Aiel body?

 

When was the last time you saw an Aiel described as short?

[bRANDan]

Which Aiel have silvery hair?

 

One of the Wise ones, Bair or Amys or someone, I forget, are said to have white hair. There is also one other Aiel we see in the books who has white hair naturally, not from age. White could be called silver if the white had a glossy sheen to it.

 

When was the last time you saw an Aiel described as short?

 

Never described as short, no. But there have been two(?, maybe more?) short Aiel we have seen, they are usually touchy about there height.

 

The question I would pose to you is, when was the last time you heard of someone not an Aiel described as having hair that could be even close to silver?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I really can't think of any.  The books are remarkably short of grandmother/grandfatherly types.

 

Everybody we meet seems to be middle aged or less.  About the most we get is that Rahvin had white wings in his hair. ( was greying at the temples )

 

And, Cyndane certainly isn't described in terms that make you think she's in an elderly body.  Which is one reason the "silver-haired" description jangled alarm bells for me.

[billoumm7]

i dont know, but i think not. after all why would Mat and Thom want to save a soleless body?

[Bob T Dwarf]

You mean a bodiless soul? 

 

Maybe because it's the right thing to do.  But, mostly because they don't know that all that's left is her soul.  ( if indeed that's how it plays out )

[Leopoled Boothe]

i dont know, but i think not. after all why would Mat and Thom want to save a soleless body?

 

You mean a bodiless soul? 

 

Maybe because it's the right thing to do.  But, mostly because they don't know that all that's left is her soul.  ( if indeed that's how it plays out )

 

I'd say that more than likley they would be doing neither.  I think they'd most likely be saving Moiraine in Lanfear's body.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Sorry, Leopoled, but when I started the thread I figured that if people were willing to discuss the idea at all, let them run with whatever thinking about it sparked.

 

If I try to police it I preclude any accidental insights and those are often he most valuable.  Fleming wasn't trying to invent penicillin, you know.

 

Ok, so you are going to compare the proper portocol of one disembodied soul addressing another in a fictional world to the discovery of penicillin?  There is not enough room on this board for me to list all the things that are wrong with that.  But I digress.

 

I'm all for fee discussion but how important could the protocol for souls addressing one another be to the plot of the story?  Truth is this is a very good topic (so respect to you for that) but if you fill it up with trival tidium like that then people will lose interest and the thread will die.  But if anything as important as the discovery of penicillin comes from it then I will stand corrected. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why, Leopoled, how heretical of you.

 

The secrets to Life, the Universe, and Everything are contained in WOT!  We must plumb the depths of every word and nuance lest we overlook the number 42!

 

( wow...it's gettin deep in here )

 

I'll give ya that Fleming was a bit over-the-top, but it was the only example I could think of in a hurry. :D

[Leopoled Boothe]

Considering that Lanfear was held by the finns, ie a prisoner, she would not exactly have had any opportunities to do any soulswitching even if she had been able to do such a thing in the real world (Which is extremely unlikely). Especially since everything points at Lanfear being unable to channel during her "vacation".

 

The body switch need not have been initiated by Lanfear.  It is possible that it was just an unfortunate side effect of being inside of a Ter'angreal when it melted. 

 

 

[Jehaine]

The body switch need not have been initiated by Lanfear.  It is possible that it was just an unfortunate side effect of being inside of a Ter'angreal when it melted.

 

...Which brings up another matter, that of what happens to someone that's inside of a ter'angreal when it is destroyed.

 

Take the Three Arches for example that the Aes Sedai use to raise people to Accepted. Over time, it is hinted that they lost quite a few Novices in there that didn't make it back. Anyone else have a feeling that that's some kind of portal stone? If so, the ones inside would be trapped in that alternate timeline.

 

I guess that's another one we get to chalk off to MoL... *sighs*

[Leopoled Boothe]

Why, Leopoled, how heretical of you?

 

You have no idea ;)

 

The secrets to Life, the Universe, and Everything are contained in WOT!

 

Ok, that is true, at least in the bleif of most people on this site (myself included).

 

I'll give ya that Fleming was a bit over-the-top, but it was the only example I could think of in a hurry.

 

Yah, it is.  Sorry but I coundn't resist jumping on that one.

 

I didn't mean to come of a harsh or anything, it just didn't want to see a good thread get bogged down in tedium.  I've seen good threads die from that before.

 

All in all, I think the Moiraine/Lanfear body switch is a viable theory.  Yes, the height and reduction in power does fit.  Add that to the possibilty of Moiraine's hair truning white due to a traumatic experience and it becomes a real possibility.  Of couse there is still the mammary issue, however, while Moiraine was never describes as being so well endowed it was never stated that she wasn't either.  Interestingly as often as RJ described women's breasts in this series he seemed to stay away from Moiraine's.  So far Graendal is the only one who has taken notice of Cyndane's rack and as far as I can remember she's never actually seem Moiraine.  Of couse Moiraine did spend most of ETOW traveling with three 18 year old boys so you would think that if large breasts were involved that surely they would have called attention to them ;D  Then agian they were probably so much in awe that she was Aes Sedai they didn't really think of her in that way.

 

Of couse we must consider that the three male souls that were transmigrated didn't suffer any reduction in power, but this could just be one of those inherent differneces between Saidar and Saidin.  Perhaps Saidar is more body dependent than Saidin.  RJ would be clever enough to come up with something like that.

 

It this is the case, I wonder how Thom, and Mat will react when they find Lanfear instead of Moiraine in the Tower of G (Moiraine in Lanfear's body that is).  Of course I don't know that either of them would recognize her, but then again Mat might be able to identify Lanfear via one of his implanted memories.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Take the Three Arches for example that the Aes Sedai use to raise people to Accepted. Over time, it is hinted that they lost quite a few Novices in there that didn't make it back. Anyone else have a feeling that that's some kind of portal stone? If so, the ones inside would be trapped in that alternate timeline.

 

Yah, I like to think that those girls got to happily live out their lives in whatever fantasy the arches conjured up for them.  However, some of them probably got trapped in the more hellish scenierios (I mean what would have happened to Nyn if Aginor had actually caught her?).  It would be cool if RJ did bring the arches and their true pupose into AMOL somehow, but I suspect that the arches, along with the lost novices, will remain of mystery.

[Jehaine]

Of couse there is still the mammary issue, however, while Moiraine was never describes as being so well endowed it was never stated that she wasn't either.  Interestingly as often as RJ described women's breasts in this series he seemed to stay away from Moiraine's.  So far Graendal is the only one who has taken notice of Cyndane's rack and as far as I can remember she's never actually seem Moiraine.  Of couse Moiraine did spend most of ETOW traveling with three 18 year old boys so you would think that if large breasts were involved that surely they would have called attention to them ;D  Then agian they were probably so much in awe that she was Aes Sedai they didn't really think of her in that way.

 

Actually, it would explain why they always ended up doing everything she wanted them to. Not everything is related to the OP, after all ;)

 

-----

 

Personally, i believe that when they miss their return portal, they'd be stuck there forever. In Nyn's case, she could have killed Aginor in that PSW if the portal hadn't distracted her.

 

Speaking of Nyn, remember what happened when she stepped into the final portal? Malkier was rebuilt, she had Lan's children and such... And when she started to give in to it, she started getting memories from that life as well. Memories she shouldn't be having, if it never happened.

 

...Which could kind of further support the theory of soul switching (Nyn with the PSW version of herself), as no Novices have gone into the Arches together to my knowledge... Hmm...

[Luckers]

All in all, I think the Moiraine/Lanfear body switch is a viable theory.  Yes, the height and reduction in power does fit.  Add that to the possibilty of Moiraine's hair truning white due to a traumatic experience and it becomes a real possibility.  Of couse there is still the mammary issue, however, while Moiraine was never describes as being so well endowed it was never stated that she wasn't either.  Interestingly as often as RJ described women's breasts in this series he seemed to stay away from Moiraine's.  So far Graendal is the only one who has taken notice of Cyndane's rack and as far as I can remember she's never actually seem Moiraine.  Of couse Moiraine did spend most of ETOW traveling with three 18 year old boys so you would think that if large breasts were involved that surely they would have called attention to them  Then agian they were probably so much in awe that she was Aes Sedai they didn't really think of her in that way.

 

Sorry mate but its not--for one the power reduction does not actually fit. Cyndane is still stronger than Graendal, and Graendal is a lot stronger than Moiraine. Secondly Moiraine herself makes clear that she is not overly endowed in the chest department when describing Ellid in New Spring, and since she is later repeatedly described as 'slim' it shows that no general changes in weight could have influenced her breast size.

 

Cyndane's body is not Moiraine's.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hey, it deserved to be jumped on.

 

And, yes, it's certainly possible that being inside the doorway when it was destroyed could cause a body-swap.  Unfortunately, we already saw an attempt to do it another way.  My maxim is don't introduce things the author hasn't already told us are possible.  That's why I went with Lanfear having done it.

 

The only real reason I could see for her doing so - since she was known to be a great beauty, and vain about it besides - would be for her own body to have been damaged so badly that she feared she would die.  

 

It could also be that she feared the Finns would kill "Lanfear" on-sight, and figured she had nothing to lose and everything to gain by making the switch and hoping to fool the Finns about who she was.

 

I don't know that we have any confirmation that she "couldn't" channel while with the Finns.  Rand certainly could.  It may have been that adjusting to a new body impaired her  ability ( now weakened by Moiraine's limitations), such that she wasn't effective at it.

 

Too many unknowns to do more than speculate.  But, if it did play out in a similar fashion, my guess is that the Lanfear body did not survive.

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers, I agree that the body type presents the greatest challenge.

 

A couple of things to keep in mind.  "New Spring" was over 20 years past.  The face may become ageless but the body can still gain or lose weight.  Not all weight-gain affects all women identically.

 

Secondly, if it is Moiraine's body, it has now been freed from whatever restraints the Oath Rod imposes.  Given that this is Lanfear that we're talking about, she would do whatever she could to enhance her beauty.  And, who knows what that may be.

 

But, overall, the body type and hair color require explanations that I don't have in any certain sense.

[Luckers]

I did address the change in weight. Moiraine was twenty-three in New Spring so not likely to be subject to sudden changes in hormones. Beyond that Moiraine is uniformly described as 'slim' indicating no general weight changes of the desgree nessasary to increase breast size. Furthermore she's never had children.

 

Ergo, her natural breast size is small, that had been influenced by childbirth, and she hasn't gained weight.

 

But... to me the biggest issue is that it doesn't explain the decline in strength.

 

Besides its too elaborate. We have a much more obvious explanation that doesn't require such assumptions and can be completely explained with what we know. Moiraine and Lanfear both were severed passing through the ter'angreal--aside from Lan's bond snapping and Lanfears later decrease in strength (which has only been witnessed in situations involving being severed and healed) this simply seems likely given that they were channeling at full strength whilst passing through a interdimensional ter'angreal that was destroyed by their passage--everything we know about ter'angreal demands it.

 

From there we do know that Lanfear was held for at least a time--another sign that she could not channel, given that Rand's activities prove channeling can be effective against the Finns, so how would they manage to hold her or Moiraine--two strong channelers each with their own angreal...? So anyway we know the Finns were in control of her--we also know the finns have displayed a distaste for things that relate to the shadow in the past, so though its not required we have a people in charge of her that are not inclined to be good to her. Other options is she died trying to escape, she killed herself, Moiraine killed her, or she died of some accident or illness. Either way she ended up dead.

 

She is transmigrated into a body by the Dark One. A simple dream message is sent to Aran'gar, or perhaps directly to a Black Sister, and Black rebel travels to Shayol Ghoul. She heals Cyndane--with a decline in strength of a similar degree as witnessed in Suian and Leane--and everything is hunky dory.

 

It fits all the evidence, requires no elaborate assumptions of new events... it works.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

As I understand it, the body provides the conduit, the soul provides the means.

 

No matter how much hydraulic pressure ( how strong the channeling soul is ) if the pipe is tiny, the flow rate is low.

 

The body and soul both must be capable of handling the stress and strain of channeling.  If the body has a low tolerance for that stress and strain, it will only allow as much as it can sustain.  Moiraine wasn't all that strong, by her own admission.

 

So if channeling works the way I think it does, then the reduction in strength is explained.

 

So far as the books have told us, only the Salidar Aes Sedai ( thanks to Nyn ) know how to heal severing.  Of those, the only one we know for sure who might have both the knowledge and ability is Halima/Aran'gar.  That would be healing via saidin not saidar, and Cyndane would be as strong as Lanfear had been.  Ditto for any Black Asha'man who would have learned from Damer Flinn.

 

So, if things went as you suggest, either the reduction is due to some punishment from either the DO or Moridin ( possibly a partial shield like the one she put on Asmo ), or the DO has deliberately nobbled one the few lieutenants he/she/it has left.

 

There's also the possibility that severing doesn't carry across a transmigration.  Thus putting her in a less capable body may have been all that was needed.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Luckers, I haven't read "New Spring" yet so I didn't know that Moiraine had comfirmed her own lack of assets.  Also I'd forgotten the part about Cyndane being more powerfull than Greandel.  I guess this body switch theory isn't goint to fly afterall.  A shame really becuse it was a cool idea.

 

So far as the books have told us, only the Salidar Aes Sedai ( thanks to Nyn ) know how to heal severing.  Of those, the only one we know for sure who might have both the knowledge and ability is Halima/Aran'gar.  That would be healing via saidin not saidar, and Cyndane would be as strong as Lanfear had been.  Ditto for any Black Asha'man who would have learned from Damer Flinn.

 

Aran'gar would know have the knowlge to heal Cyndane/Lanfear because she channels Saidin, and therefore would not be able to learn a trick performed with Saidar.  However, there were black sisters at Salidar so Nyn probably inadvertantly taught the trick to some of them.  Therefore, there would be black sisters availabe to heal Cyndane.  On the other hand, Flinn is the only Asha'man with the abilty to heal severing, and he hasn't taught it to anyone else yet. Therefore,  so none of Taim's Asha'man would know how to do it.  Therefore, the only choice they had was to have a black sister heal Cyndane back to partial stregnth.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Except we know of no such Black Sister.

 

The only confirmed Black we have among the Salidar bunch was the Grey for whom Halima was supposedly the maid.  Healing isn't exactly a Grey specialty.

 

Semi certainly could have, but she has always been elsewhere and has never had the opportunity to learn the weave.

 

Moggy might have picked it up during one of her spying sessions, but again Healing doesn't seem to be her thing.  She was Nynaeve and Egwene's prisoner  from the day Lanfear "died" until quite awhile later anyway.  Souls don't keep.  They need a new body soonest.

[BrainFireBob]

Bob T, you need to review.

 

Moiraine is one of the five strongest women in the Tower (all of the same level of strength), prior to the introduction of the Wondergirls and the discovery Cadsuane is still alive. She is one of five women Verin postulates were strong enough to survive the Choedan Kal. Much weaker than the Forsaken is used to establish how strong the Forsaken are, not that Moiraine is weak. Moiraine is probably at the lowest level to be a serious contender with the Forsaken. (For reference, the others were Lelaine, Romanda, Siuan, and Elaida).

 

And Osan'gar and Aran'gar dispute your idea that the body determines strength. Neither mentions or notes any reduction in power, nor does any other Forsaken comment on it. Moreover, Aran'gar's new body would have zero theoretical ability to handle saidin.

 

Shortly, you've made this up out of wishes and dreams and are now trying to build on it. The analogy is bad, let it go.

 

The ability to channel comes from the soul. Channelling is a soul-thing.

 

It requires a body with the necessary "organ" of some sort that allows one to "link" with the One Power in Creation. Ability to utilize the organ is from the soul, existence of the organ comes from genetics. Connection to this organ is cut when severed or stilled, the "organ" or whatever the physical component is is outright destroyed by being burned out (RJ's comment- burning out is not Healable, although their soul is still a channeller's soul). There's something physical that another channeller can Heal. Nynaeve referred to what she did as builing a bridge- she replaced the body's connection to that part of itself.

 

Rand losing a hand did not reduce his channelling strength, nor did most of Rahvin's body being turned into a cinder. This isn't Star Wars with midi-chlorians, there's no physical "dam" or "channel" restricting flow.

 

Flinn made his discovery after Nynaeve made hers. Cyndane being weakened may be a punishment, or may reflect the window in which Cyndane was re-incarnated (or even that the Shadow as yet is unaware of Flinn's discovery).

 

Also, the DO has his jokes.

 

Cyndane is effortlessly sensual- in fact, she's sensual when she does not want to be. I put to you that Cyndane is a parody of Lanfear. From most beautiful, she is perhaps now the most desirable or attractive (purely sexually) woman alive- of course, fewer women being alive means standards are lower. Same with her strength. She may be as strong as any Aes Sedai or some other standard- which is quite a bit lower than the statistical fluke of Lanfear.

 

That's the best alternative I can find for her reduction in strength not resting on stilling and severing- if the 'Finns could fix it, and her beauty and ability were both destroyed, I could see her wishing for both to be repaired. And not getting what she wanted because hey, they're assholes.

 

[Graendals favourite]

This is not very significant, but I've thought Cyndane could well be in Cabriana Mecandes's body, the Aes Sedai Semirhage questioned in the beginning of LoC. She would have been available at the right time, could channel, and the descriptions match fairly well. This would of course be confirmed should Cyndane encounter Aes Sedai, a meeting with the rebels would certainly be interesting, with them having revealed her former secretary. Who knows if Kairen and Anaiya were murdered in part with the intention of removing people who knew Cabriana well.

[Luckers]

As I understand it, the body provides the conduit, the soul provides the means.

 

No matter how much hydraulic pressure ( how strong the channeling soul is ) if the pipe is tiny, the flow rate is low.

 

The body and soul both must be capable of handling the stress and strain of channeling.  If the body has a low tolerance for that stress and strain, it will only allow as much as it can sustain.  Moiraine wasn't all that strong, by her own admission.

 

So if channeling works the way I think it does, then the reduction in strength is explained.

 

It doesn't work that way--or at least transmigration doesn't. The other Forsaken retain an exactly accurate amount of strength. Even accross genders. Whatever influence genetics has, its not that.

 

So far as the books have told us, only the Salidar Aes Sedai ( thanks to Nyn ) know how to heal severing.  Of those, the only one we know for sure who might have both the knowledge and ability is Halima/Aran'gar.  That would be healing via saidin not saidar, and Cyndane would be as strong as Lanfear had been.  Ditto for any Black Asha'man who would have learned from Damer Flinn

 

What? No, seriously, I'm confused.

 

Firstly, dozens of Yellows are trained by Nynaeve in the first few hours, so plenty of sisters know, and surely some amongst them must be black... even if not the knowledge must have spred, and not only Yellows have talent with healing.

 

Secondly, Aran'gar had no knowledge of how to heal severing. She channels saidin and has had no interactions with Finn--who by that stage had not even discovered the method. Honestly, i'm not sure what your going on about...? Why would they have even been involved when there are so many Aes Sedai who already have the knowledge?

 

So, if things went as you suggest, either the reduction is due to some punishment from either the DO or Moridin ( possibly a partial shield like the one she put on Asmo ), or the DO has deliberately nobbled one the few lieutenants he/she/it has left.

 

Furthering the what, but what the hell? If things went as i suggest, then clearly the decrease is through being healed by a woman...

 

There's also the possibility that severing doesn't carry across a transmigration.  Thus putting her in a less capable body may have been all that was needed.

 

No, there isn't. The chanelling state of channelers remains constant accross the transmigratory process.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Moiraine describes herself as relatively weak.  Certainly compared to Lanfear she would be.

 

Osan'gar and Aran'gar don't enter into it.  We know nothing about the bodies they were given.  We know nothing about how great their strength was to begin with.  Nor do we know how much importance they placed on that strength. 

 

Lanfear was different.  She maintained her place in the pecking order partly through intimidation based on her strength.  If, as you suggest, strength comes entirely from the soul, all that's required from the body being your 'organ', then Cyndane should not be any weaker than Lanfear.

 

As Jordan said, the DO is not human and we can't ascribe human thought or motivation to it, but the DO does think and does have a large self-interest in how things play out.  That self-interest is best served by having the strongest forces possible.  Deliberately nobbling one of the few lieutenants you've got left goes against that self-interest.

 

Enacting the kind of 'joke' you suggest doesn't make sense.