Has anybody wondered...

[Bob T Dwarf]

... if the body that 'Cyndane' is in might not be Moiraine's?

 

Size matches.  Reduction in strength in OP fits.

 

After all, they don't maintain a stockpile of channeler bodies at SG just in case one of the "Chosen" is silly enough to get him or herself offed.

 

We know from her letter that Moiraine's soul is still alive, but that doesn't mean that her soul is still in her body.  Wanna bet that Ba'alzamon wasn't the only Forsaken to know the "pull the soul from the body" trick.  Would fit with the burst of light and heat having damaged Lanfear's body too badly to survive.  It also fits with one of Egwene's "Dreams".

 

Discuss.

[Majsju]

It is  not the same body. The only thing that does match is the height. The haircolour is wrong, as well as a certain part of a womans body.

 

Also, the finns are not capable of transmigrating souls, which means they are not responsible.

[aevogt]

Moraine was never described as having "huge...tracts of land"

[Bob T Dwarf]

I didn't say the Finns were responsible.  What I meant by what I did say was that Lanfear made the switch herself.

 

You didn't really think that Ba'alzamon would have taken the trouble to remove Rand's soul from his body and then been content to remain in his present, wasted and pretty much useless one, did you?  That was an attempt to takeover as Rand.

 

It could have even worked, because at the Last Battle, even though the Heroes would have known the man behind the mask wasn't LTT/Rand, they are constrained to "Come to the Horn and follow the Banner."  Both of which Randzamon would have commanded.

[Majsju]

Considering that Lanfear was held by the finns, ie a prisoner, she would not exactly have had any opportunities to do any soulswitching even if she had been able to do such a thing in the real world (Which is extremely unlikely). Especially since everything points at Lanfear being unable to channel during her "vacation".

 

But that is a moot point, since the books clearly shows us that the bodies are different enough to take away any possibility of them being the same.

[Bob T Dwarf]

aevogt -

 

Yup.  I believe it's Graendal who is described being both short and as having generous upper-frontals.

[aevogt]

Graendal is the one who reflects on Cyndane.  '...she should have made better use of such an impressive bosom.'

[bRANDan]

After all, they don't maintain a stockpile of channeler bodies at SG just in case one of the "Chosen" is silly enough to get him or herself offed.

 

The ability to channel is linked with the soul not the body. Otherwise putting Balthamel into a woman's body would have made Aran'gar(new Balthamel) channel saidar.

 

Also Spirit is used to shield someone, not Fire, Earth, Water or Air, or any combination of those things.

[Majsju]

The ability to channel is linked with the soul not the body. Otherwise putting Balthamel into a woman's body would have made Aran'gar(new Balthamel) channel saidar.

 

Actually, the ability is both body and soul.

[BrainFireBob]

Indeed. Demandred mentions suitable bodies, as did I believe Jordan.

 

By suitable, one assumes that the body must be healthy and capable of channelling.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, it is.  Or, rather does.  ( BFB got in with his post while I was typing mine )

 

I do agree that the description of Cyndane as "bosomy and silver-haired" is a problem.

 

However, Moiraine seems to have dressed decorously as a lady of her background and station customarily would.  So, we don't really get any description of her physical assets that I can recall.  Dark hair.  Striking eyes.  But, that's about it.

 

Now, imagine for a second having your soul ripped from your body.  I'd call that a major shock to the system.  Silver is an unusual choice for a hair color.  Not blonde.  Not even platinum.  But, silver.  We have examples in the real world of people who have undergone tremendous shock or stress having their hair go white overnight.  Add in the effects of whatever radiation produced the blast of heat and light.  Silver.  White.  A slight difference in tone or how the light is shining on it.  Too, close to really say for sure.

[Majsju]

Indeed. Demandred mentions suitable bodies, as did I believe Jordan.

 

By suitable, one assumes that the body must be healthy and capable of channelling.

 

What Demandred is talking about is something different. He is talking about bodies for the myrdraals blades.

 

But we do see a reference to the importance of the body in the books, when an Aes Sedai is theorising if they by gentling all male channeler might be moving towards breeding the ability to channel out of mankind. And that can of course only be done if there is a genetic, physical aspect to it.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes and no.

 

Balthamel ended up as Aran'gar because there was only one male body available that was capable of supporting a channeler.  Aginor got that one and he got the next available one with that capability, which happened to be female.

 

Any average man, woman, child, or infant will serve to quench a Myrrdraal blade.  Simply isn't enough channeler stock for it to be otherwise.

[bRANDan]

when an Aes Sedai is theorising if they by gentling all male channeler might be moving towards breeding the ability to channel out of mankind

 

I always thought that the Aes Sedai's speculation was false. It seemed the AS had become too self-absorbed to really know. Egwene is finding tons of girls/women who can channel and the BT has matched the WT for channelers.

 

Balthamel ended up as Aran'gar because there was only one male body available that was capable of supporting a channeler.  Aginor got that one and he got the next available one with that capability, which happened to be female.

 

This, I thought was due to the DO's cruel sense of humor, and the fact that a woman channeling Saidin would be a perfect infiltrator/assasin.

 

But I can see it now, the ability being both body and soul. Did RJ ever say anything on the subject? Or the BWB?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes he did.

 

IIRC he spelled it out pretty clearly, but I don't have a link to the actual quote.

 

Maj might be able to point you in the right direction.

 

Given that the DO is sexless, my guess would be that the sex of a transplant body would be a matter of utter indifference to it.  Don't think the DO has anything approaching a sense of humor either even though we do see him laughing at the end of LoC.  Probably more at Demandred's bootlicking than true humor, joy, or approval.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

when an Aes Sedai is theorising if they by gentling all male channeler might be moving towards breeding the ability to channel out of mankind

 

I always thought that the Aes Sedai's speculation was false. It seemed the AS had become too self-absorbed to really know. Egwene is finding tons of girls/women who can channel and the BT has matched the WT for channelers.

 

she's not far off.  if they 'eliminated' every male with the channelling gene, channelers would indeed be gone forever(short of mutations).  however, the channelling gene seems to be recessive, so it would likely be 'preserved' forever, so when 'OP-capable' ages come around, it'll be there.

[Leopoled Boothe]

 

Actually, the ability is both body and soul.

 

Would you care to back this statement up with some evidence?  I'm not trying to start anything here but one on my pet peeves is when people make definitive statements without offering any argument in favor of that statement.  Even if the reason is as simple as "because Robert Jordan said so" please let us know how you know this.

 

Most of the evidence would seem to indicate that the soul detemines that greater part of a persons ability to channel and his/her stregnth in the power.  However, this is far from conclusive

 

Exhibit A:  Neither Osan'gar nor Aran'gar nor Moridin make any complaint about having lost any of their ability to channel nor do they marvel at having any enhanced ability.  I know that this doesn't necessarly mean that they have not experienced any change in their abilities, but you would think that individuals as power hungery as the forsaken would complain ad naseum about loosing any power and would brag ad naseum about gaining any.  Moreover, in and age where channelers are by and large less powerfull than those of the AOL what are the chances of the DO finding three bodies that could aproximate the stregnth of three of the forsaken.

 

On the other hand:  So far we have seen four trasmigrated souls three of which are male and one of which is female.  Only the female seems to have experienced any change in her abilites post trasmigration.  Could it be that this is one of those inherent differneces between Saiden and Saidar?  Perhaps Saiden can readily be channeled through any body so long as the soul is able to channel while Saidar is more influenced by the body that the soul inhabits.

 

Exhibit B: Yes, the term "sutable bodies" is mentioned but it is not defined.  This could mean that the body must be hard wired to channel, but it could just as easily mean a body that is still capable of sustaining life eg a body that has not been dead for too long or one that was not too badly mutulated.  Even in the case of natural death the DO might have to find a body that has not sustained too much organ damage, for example a body that it riddled with cancer, has a congested heart, failing kidneys or fibrosed lungs probably wouldn't be be able to sustain life again no matter whose soul you put in in.  Given that most deaths are the result of some form of organ failure the DO may be hard pressed indeed to find sutable bodies.

 

On the other hand: It is possible that the DO is able heal the bodies to some extent or that he can order one of the forsaken to do so thus making the issues of organ damage and mutilation not such a huge problem.  Whatever the case we really don't know what is meant by "sutable bodies."

 

Exhibit C: Aran'gar continues to channel Saiden.  If the abilty to channel were dependent on the body then Aran'gar's body would be hardwired to channel Saidar and not Saiden.  This would require Bathamel to learn to channel all over again thus making him no more of a threat than your average novice.  This clearly is not the case.

 

One the other hand:  Perhaps bodies that can channel are simply hard wired to channel the One Power in a generic sense.  Perhaps it is the body that determines a persons abilty to channel in general while the soul determines which half of the True Source is channeled.  An interesting point made through the case of Aran'gar is that female bodies apparently are capable of channeling Saiden which leads me to wonder why they typically don't do so; must have something to do with the soul. So whatever the case, we can at least reasonably conclude that it is the soul that determines which half of the sourse a person channels.  What part, if any, that the body plays remains inconclusive.

 

Exhibit D:  Rand and LTT, who are one soul, are both extrememly powerfull channelers.

 

On the other hand:  While Rand and LTT are both very powerfull channelers we don't know that they are equally powerfull. It is possible that Rand is actually more powerfull that LTT or vice versa. Moreover, we don't know that every incarnation of The Dragon is a powerfull channeler or even that every incarnation of The Dragon can channel at all.  It is possible that the pattern needed a very powerfull channler in both the AOL and the third age so it spun out a powerfully channeling body for The Dragon's soul in both cases (the pattern isn't stupid afterall).  We know nothing about The Dragon in the other five ages, so we can't say for sure that this soul always inhabits the body of an extremely powerfull channeler. 

 

Any way this is just some food for thought.  The point is that we really don't now to what extent the body and soul determine one's abilty to channel.  We can reasonably concule, through the case of Aran'gar, that the soul does play some part particularly in determining which half of the source one can channel.  The role of the body, however, is still a complete mystery.   

[Bob T Dwarf]

As far as Rand and LTT go.  Artur Hawkwing addresses him/them as Lews Therin and obviously knows him quite well.

 

That indicates two things to me:

1.  LTT is the dominant personality that inhabits the Dragon soul.

2.  The Dragon, aka Lews Therin Telamon, is a Hero of the Horn.  Or at least gets to hangout at the Heroes of the Horn Social Club and Debating Society between lives.

 

The Horn was never used during LTT's lifetime.  We know from Birgitte, that it is verboten for the souls of the Heroes to interact with anyone living who enters T'a'r.  We also know from her that when between lives those souls remember all of their past lives.  Thus Hawkwing never had an opportunity to become acquainted with him anywhere but within T'a'r and he couldn't or wouldn't have done that while LTT was alive.  Thus I conclude that the only way LTT and Hawkwing could have hung out and swapped lies was when both were dead and waiting to be either reborn or summoned by the Horn.  And, since the Dragon would have remembered all of his past lives, Hawkwing addressing him as Lews Therin means that LTT has to be the dominant personality of the Dragon soul.

 

Jordan did say that a channeler soul is not always born into a channeler body, and so, may not channel in every lifetime.  AFAIK, ordinarily, strength is variable lifetime to lifetime, so someone who is a powerhouse in this lifetime may not be in the next.  In fact they may not channel at all.

 

If the Dragon soul gets reborn into a channeler body, given how powerful Rand and LTT both are, it seems likely to me that the person would be a powerful channeler.  Probably the most powerful of that time.  It also seems likely that the dominant personality would have the greatest strength in the Power if there is any difference between the strengths of the individual personalities.

 

Of course, none of this has anything to do with whose body Cyndane is wearing, but I find it interesting anyway.

[BrainFireBob]

Aginor and Balthamel demonstrate that strength is a characteristic of the soul.

 

RJ did lay it out. It's recessive, and around 1% of the population has it. In the AoL, this was around 2%.

 

Personally- and this is speculative!- I've wondered if this is where the difference between sparkers and those with the ability to learn comes from. RJ based the Wheel heavily on various Indian forms of mysticism and reincarnation, and since the "goal" (speaking very loosely) is to become, well, more *awesome* over time, perhaps those with the ability to learn have the physical ability (which allows them to develop the ability in the soul), and those who spark have both gene and "channelling soul," and it's merely a matter of aligning the abilities of the two.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

As far as Rand and LTT go.  Artur Hawkwing addresses him/them as Lews Therin and obviously knows him quite well.

 

That indicates two things to me:

1.  LTT is the dominant personality that inhabits the Dragon soul.

 

 

nope, its just proper protocol to refer to the soul by the name of its previous incarnation.  rand's previous incarnation was LTT, hence the address by hawkwing.

[Jehaine]

Given

As far as Rand and LTT go.  Artur Hawkwing addresses him/them as Lews Therin and obviously knows him quite well.

 

That indicates two things to me:

1.  LTT is the dominant personality that inhabits the Dragon soul.

2.  The Dragon, aka Lews Therin Telamon, is a Hero of the Horn.  Or at least gets to hangout at the Heroes of the Horn Social Club and Debating Society between lives.

 

The Horn was never used during LTT's lifetime.  We know from Birgitte, that it is verboten for the souls of the Heroes to interact with anyone living who enters T'a'r.  We also know from her that when between lives those souls remember all of their past lives.  Thus Hawkwing never had an opportunity to become acquainted with him anywhere but within T'a'r and he couldn't or wouldn't have done that while LTT was alive.  Thus I conclude that the only way LTT and Hawkwing could have hung out and swapped lies was when both were dead and waiting to be either reborn or summoned by the Horn.  And, since the Dragon would have remembered all of his past lives, Hawkwing addressing him as Lews Therin means that LTT has to be the dominant personality of the Dragon soul.

 

If the Dragon soul gets reborn into a channeler body, given how powerful Rand and LTT both are, it seems likely to me that the person would be a powerful channeler.  Probably the most powerful of that time.  It also seems likely that the dominant personality would have the greatest strength in the Power if there is any difference between the strengths of the individual personalities.

 

I'd have to comment on this, and bring up Guire Amalasan. Amalasan was considered the 'most powerful male channeler of the Age', and raised an army to unite the world.

 

from what we know of him, he could very well be LTT reborn. As such, Hawkwing would know him as LTT given that the two of them fought quite a lot in the battles that Hawkwing was reknowned for (and ended up with him becoming a Hunter of the Horn, but i disgress).

[Alexius]

Two channelers-being-reborn questions:- do we know whether Ilyena could channel? After all, IMO Elayne is Ilyena reborn (or at least we're meant to think that), and so surely Ilyena would have been able to channel if channeling ability (even in OP-less Ages) remained the same as souls were reborn.

 

Was Tamyrlin the previous incarnation of the Dragon (before LTT)? After all, Tamyrlin could channel and ended an Age. On the other hand, Tamyrlin may well have been female!

[Majsju]

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also.  In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.  For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool.  They have been very efficient at this.  As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

From the Blog.

[Bob T Dwarf]

GA2-

 

nope, its just proper protocol to refer to the soul but the name of its previous incarnation.  rand's previous incarnation was LTT, hence the address by hawkwing.

 

And, you know this how?

 

Seems to me the polite, proper protocol thing to do would be to address the person by the name they wear in the present incarnation.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Alexius -

 

There really isn't a sensible way to answer your question.

 

Given how the mythos is constructed, it's virtually certain Ilyena gets reborn at some point.  Is it as Elayne?  No way to know.  Does it really matter?

 

re. Tamyrlin, no way to know.  Again, it seems to me that it's a moot point.