Has anybody wondered...

[Majsju]

GA2-

 

nope, its just proper protocol to refer to the soul but the name of its previous incarnation.  rand's previous incarnation was LTT, hence the address by hawkwing.

 

And, you know this how?

 

Seems to me the polite, proper protocol thing to do would be to address the person by the name they wear in the present incarnation.

 

This is from a collection of various reports from booksignings etc. The problem is that most of the quotes in this collection lacks proper confirmation, so it is a bit risky to use it as 100% truth.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  Thanks, Maj.

 

Well, it was an interesting theory that still might even be true, but wouldn't help decide who might be stronger, LTT or Rand.

[Brooke]

Two channelers-being-reborn questions:- do we know whether Ilyena could channel? After all, IMO Elayne is Ilyena reborn (or at least we're meant to think that), and so surely Ilyena would have been able to channel if channeling ability (even in OP-less Ages) remained the same as souls were reborn.

 

 

Why Elayne? Why not Aviendha? Or Min for that matter (though I forget what color hair Min has)? Unfortunately you cannot go on physical discription, or the ability to channel to decide who is who's past lives.

 

As far as I am aware, any of the main characters that have been reincarnated has memories of those a past life. Now this is where a lot of people might agrue with me, but the only people I know for sure are that have significant past lives that are of any use in their current life are Mat and Rand. Rand because he is the Dragon Reborn...please don't make me rehash evidence of it, I think we all except it by now. And Mat due to his ability to speak and understand the old tongue, and his memory of the start of a battle BEFORE he enters the door way in Rhuidean. (yes I am aware that his memories were filled in Rhuidean, but I also am aware of the fact that he could understand the old tongue when it was spoke to him on his first trip to the land of the Finn's in Tear)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I understand what you're saying, but...

 

We have no way to tell whether that thinning of the barrier between current and past-life memories is recent or has always been there.  Nor, actually, how widespread it is.

 

If recent, it's likely that it's another side-effect of the DO's growing power over the world.

 

That would be BAD.

[Brooke]

I can see yoru point Bob, but from what we see in the books it's not very wide spread. So if you go with the theory that it's a result of the dark ones power then you can lead to other conclusions like Perrin being a wolf brother is a result in the dark one touching the world since that is so rare as well (we only see three I think people with it and one of those lost his humanity). Each ta'varen has similarities and differences. I am willing to listen to almost any arguement against my "mat's past life memory" theory thingy, but I doubt any can argument can change my mind. Each ta'veren has a path that he must follow and Mat's is to be a general of sorts. I'm at work and don't have the book with me, but I'll look up what the Finn's called him. I know one was trickster, one was gambler, and the other was some thing to do with general or good battle person. I'll have to look it up. The Wheel spun Rand out in such a way that he had what he needed before he new what he had, I believe it did the same with all three.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I agree with you entirely there.

 

The Wheel needed 3 to provide the necessary correction to the Pattern, and all 3 would receive everything they need to be successful.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Seems to me the polite, proper protocol thing to do would be to address the person by the name they wear in the present incarnation.

 

really?  seems to me that by referring to their previous name, you acknowledge the great deeds that soul has accomplished, rather than what it may or may not accomplish in the future.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given that throughout known history, LTT is held in very bad odor, addressing someone as "Lews Therin" would, by your reasoning, be a huge insult.

[aevogt]

Lews Therin was a great man.  The insult would be to call someone "Kinslayer"

[Bob T Dwarf]

Both Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin also accomplished some good things.

 

If you had the ability to perceive the underlying soul, and you met a reincarnated Hitler or Stalin, would you even let on that you knew who he'd once been?

 

I think not.  I sure wouldn't.  No matter what form of address you used that incorporated the soul's former persona, you just slap them in the face with all the unpalatable associations, as well.

 

That's not good manners nor good protocol.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Given that throughout known history, LTT is held in very bad odor, addressing someone as "Lews Therin" would, by your reasoning, be a huge insult.

 

if you look at it in that way...

 

LTT was quite the hero in the AOL.  the reason he is in 'bad odor' in the 3rd age is a result of ignorance.  LTT is not recognized for all his civil and military accomplishments in the 3rd age, he's known only for 'causing' the breaking and as 'kinslayer.'

 

you have to remember that when a hero's soul is in TAR, they possess ALL of their memories.  THEY still remember all the good things LTT did.  when you remember EVERYTHING that happened, LTT really wasn't so bad.  sure, he wasn't perfect, but he was still definitely a 'hero.'

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, Hawkwing's own memories would be from what, 2000 years closer to the Breaking and all of the atrocities committed by male Aes Sedai.  Memories would have been fresher.  More actual details would have been known.

 

Things are a mess now, think how bad they must have been in Hawkwing's time.  As someone who was still cleaning up that mess, I doubt his own personal memories would have been very complimentary where LTT was concerned.  Until he got to know him in the afterlife, anyway.

 

No, Hawkwing would know that Lews Therin was not anyone who was well thought of at any time after the Strike on Shayul Ghul.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Well, Hawkwing's own memories would be from what, 2000 years closer to the Breaking and all of the atrocities committed by male Aes Sedai.  Memories would have been fresher.  More actual details would have been known.

 

Things are a mess now, think how bad they must have been in Hawkwing's time.  As someone who was still cleaning up that mess, I doubt his own personal memories would have been very complimentary where LTT was concerned.  Until he got to know him in the afterlife, anyway.

 

No, Hawkwing would know that Lews Therin was not anyone who was well thought of at any time after the Strike on Shayul Ghul.

 

?

 

ummm....hawkwing has been tied to the horn for QUITE some time now...remember how he comments to rand about all the times they've fought alongside and against each other at falme?

 

you have to remember that when a hero's soul is in TAR' date=' they possess ALL of their memories.  THEY still remember all the good things LTT did.[/quote']

 

not to mention, if hawkwing soul ONLY became tied to the horn after the hawkwing body died, that would have STILL been a thousand years the LTT soul and his would have been chatting it up.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Firstly, we don't know how many Turnings of the Wheel he's referring to.  The Wheel may have been revolving for 2 billion years or more by the time we enter the picture.  So, number of battles fought together and against each other is not a real measure of anything.

 

Second, your memories aren't the proper context from which to view the meeting.  If you're introducing yourself to someone who is wearing a face you're not accustomed to seeing, calling them by a former name from a previous life is likely to be confusing and threatening to them, at the least.

 

These guys have all been reborn multiple times.  They remember each of those lives.  They all also know that once you get reborn you don't retain any memories from your previous life.

 

I'm still at a loss as to how it could be proper protocol to address someone you're meeting for the first time by the name they wore in a previous life.

[BrainFireBob]

The Heroes hang out in tel'aran'rhiod in between rebirths. Since memories fade the further back you go, one must conclude that the most recent "life" is the most dominant "personality" of these gestalt consciousness beings.

 

To the Heroes, he is not Rand al'Thor- they have not met Rand al'Thor. They know LTT, because they've spent 3,000 years hanging out with him in tel'aran'rhiod.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Beleive me BFB, I know that.  It's a point I've been arguing for for well over a year now.

 

Doesn't change the fact that the polite and proper thing to say when you meet someone new for the first time is, "Hello.  I'm Artur Hawkwing.", and let the other person identify himself to you.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Firstly, we don't know how many Turnings of the Wheel he's referring to.  The Wheel may have been revolving for 2 billion years or more by the time we enter the picture.  So, number of battles fought together and against each other is not a real measure of anything.

 

um...even one AGE would be a hell of a long time...hell, even being together for half of an age would be quite some time together(even a 50-year long age)

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK, so?

 

Still, the polite thing to do when you meet someone new ( or even someone old wearing a new face and body ) is to introduce yourself and wait for him to introduce himself.

 

Don't misunderstand, I'm glad Hawkwing did things the way he did.  It gave us some valuable insight into a couple of important things.

 

But to call doing things the way they played out 'proper protocol' makes no sense.

[BrainFireBob]

Why?

 

With the perspective of all those identities behind you, greeting an old friend, you greet him as you know him- and if he tells you, as Rand did, that he has a new name, you accept the correction, as Artur did, with grace. You'll note he switched to using Rand's "Wheel-title."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Again - from his own experience he knew what bad odor the name Lews Therin was held in.  He knew - from his own experience - that once you get a new face and body you lose all memory of who you used to be.

 

Why insult a guy when you're meeting him for the first time?  Makes no sense for somebody with Hawkwing's political acumen.

[BrainFireBob]

And how up to date is Hawkwing's information- how do the Heroes know how much time has passed?

 

Far as Hawkwing himself would know, the Aes Sedai were wiped out.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, as I hope we've established, these people all hang out at the Heroes of the Horn Social Club and Debating Society ( on the corner of Callandor Avenue and Choeden Kal Boulevard in the sleepy little town of Tel'aran'rhiod ) between lives.  There they swap lies and get news reports from the most recently dead.  Thus they keep up-to-date on what's going on among us mere mortals.

 

Hawkwing might not know what happened yesterday, or last week, but he sure would know what happened sometime in the last 50 years.

 

So he would know that LTT still isn't highly thought of.

 

Also, as we've seen with the Wonder Girls reading Elaida's mail, T'a'R confers some real advantages when it comes to getting the very latest news about darn near everything.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Bob, Brian this thread is about whether its possible that Cyndane is Lanfear in Moiraine's body.  It ain't about the proper protocol when one disembodied soul address another.  Now please take a moment to think about what you are arguing over, go take a long hard look in the mirror and cut it out already.  Honestly, this may just be the worst example of thread drift I've ever seen.

[bRANDan]

The only people I've seen having silvery hair are the Aiel. Could Cyndane be an Aiel body?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Which Aiel have silvery hair?