Has anybody wondered...

[Bob T Dwarf]

This is not very significant, but I've thought Cyndane could well be in Cabriana Mecandes's body, the Aes Sedai Semirhage questioned in the beginning of LoC. She would have been available at the right time, could channel, and the descriptions match fairly well. This would of course be confirmed should Cyndane encounter Aes Sedai, a meeting with the rebels would certainly be interesting, with them having revealed her former secretary. Who knows if Kairen and Anaiya were murdered in part with the intention of removing people who knew Cabriana well.

 

hmmmmm...

 

I'd say there is the possibility.  Quite a bit fits what is known.

 

Cabriana : She has pale eyes and long golden hair almost to her waist. There is a fierce directness in her gaze. (NS,Ch12) She has pale hair and skin and blue eyes. (LoC,Ch6) ( from Encyclopaedia-Wot )  She is described as behaving and speaking meekly around other AS due to her relative weakness in the Power.

 

Cyndane : She is a short young woman with long silver hair, vivid blue eyes and an impressive bosom. She holds herself very straight striving for height. (TPoD,Ch12) She has a low, breathy voice. (WH,Ch13) ( same source )

 

Cabriana is killed by Semi in Ch 6 of LOC.  Nynaeve heals Logain in Ch 29 of LOC and Siuan and Leane in Ch 30 of LOC.

Halima arrives in Salidar in Ch 30 of LOC.  She frees Moggy in the Epilogue to LOC.

 

Thus Moggy could be the source of whatever information the bad guys have about healing severing.  She might also be the one who actually healed Lanfear if healing was needed.  That might be a source of some of the tension between the two of them.  Lanfear figuring that Moggy deliberately nobbled her.  Both being very competitive over who is really the big shot in T'a'R.  A weaker Lanfear might give Moggy the upper hand.  It would level the playing field some, at the very least.

 

Changing hair color from pale golden to silver might certainly be possible by the time Semi finished with her.  The only real dings are that I could find no reference to her height or bust-size.

 

A lot might depend on the exact timeline too.  Does anybody know how much overlap or gap there might be between FoH and LoC?

 

Preliminarily, I'd say there are no immediate disqualifiers and the circumstances and timeline could work.

 

[Majsju]

This is not very significant, but I've thought Cyndane could well be in Cabriana Mecandes's body, the Aes Sedai Semirhage questioned in the beginning of LoC. She would have been available at the right time, could channel, and the descriptions match fairly well. This would of course be confirmed should Cyndane encounter Aes Sedai, a meeting with the rebels would certainly be interesting, with them having revealed her former secretary. Who knows if Kairen and Anaiya were murdered in part with the intention of removing people who knew Cabriana well.

 

That Cyndanes body used to belong to Cabriana is one of, if not the most popular theories, and one that does make a lot of sense.

 

However, I do not think any encounter with Aes Sedai would reveal that. Obviously Cyndane is not bound by the Oath Rod, which means she lacks the ageless appearance. And as we saw with Siuan and Leane, removing the agelessness changes the appearance a lot.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To follow-up -

 

Cabriana was already a full sister when Moiraine and Siuan took the 3 Oaths.  She's the one who showed them around the Blue Ajah compound.

 

So, she's obviously older than both.  However, as we see with Siuan and Leane, freedom from the oath rod results in a more youthful appearance.  So, Cyndane being described as a "young woman" isn't really a disqualifier either.

[BrainFireBob]

I repeat: Moiraine is relatively weak by the standards of the Forsaken. We know for a fact,, both in-story and out, that Moiraine is one of the five strongest women in the Tower (all of whom have the same level of strength) before the Wondergirls arrive. Only Cadsuane was stronger. Any other claim is either ignorant or disingenuous, because it's patently false. Sorry, Bob.

[Luckers]

Mmm. I'm a fan of the Cabriana suggestion.

 

To follow-up -

 

Cabriana was already a full sister when Moiraine and Siuan took the 3 Oaths.  She's the one who showed them around the Blue Ajah compound.

 

So, she's obviously older than both.  However, as we see with Siuan and Leane, freedom from the oath rod results in a more youthful appearance.  So, Cyndane being described as a "young woman" isn't really a disqualifier either.

 

Indeed, as long as Cabriana is under one hundred she would appear as a relatively young woman when released from the oaths.

 

Lanfear was different.  She maintained her place in the pecking order partly through intimidation based on her strength.  If, as you suggest, strength comes entirely from the soul, all that's required from the body being your 'organ', then Cyndane should not be any weaker than Lanfear.

 

It may not come entirely from the soul to begin with--we don't know enough about the influence of genetics on the maturing of the gift. But we do know that transmigration doesn't effect the state of channeling. That may be because in transmigration the soul sits less securely in the body, or it may be that genetics are only an influence on strength because of development during childhood or something, or it may be that genetics influences other things entirely, like whether you have the spark or the ability to learn.

 

We don't know enough, but we do know it doesn't effect transmigration strength.

 

Thus Moggy could be the source of whatever information the bad guys have about healing severing.  She might also be the one who actually healed Lanfear if healing was needed.  That might be a source of some of the tension between the two of them.  Lanfear figuring that Moggy deliberately nobbled her.  Both being very competitive over who is really the big shot in T'a'R.  A weaker Lanfear might give Moggy the upper hand.  It would level the playing field some, at the very least.

 

Frankly if the Shadow knew enough of events in Salidar to know Moghedian needed rescuing, then they knew enough to know being severed could now be healed. I doubt that Moghedian was the one who healed Cyndane though--she denies any ability with healing, and whilst she might of been lying i just don't see it. It seems much simpler to me to have simply sent for one of the Black Rebels who had the knowledge.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I repeat: Moiraine is relatively weak by the standards of the Forsaken....

 

And, that's exactly the point, isn't it?  She isn't up to Lanfear's mettle, and neither is Cyndane.

 

If strength came entirely from the soul, as you seem to think, she would be.  So, either Cyndane was healed by a woman, or the body that a channeler soul inhabits has an affect of the strength of the channeler.

[Luckers]

I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say there. If you were suggesting that Cyndane is using Moiraine's body because neither Cyndane nor Moiraine were as strong as Lanfear, than you are wrong, because Cyndane is stronger than Moiraine.

 

Beyond that-- it may be that strength comes from body and soul in normal cases, we don't know. We do know that in transmigratory cases strength remains constant. I refer you to my previous post.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We infer that strength remains constant.  We do that solely based on the fact that neither Osan'gar nor Aran'gar spent twelve pages moaning about a loss of strength.  And, that none of the others mention their strength at all.  Not, too surprising.  The others consider them non-entities to begin with.

 

We've only seen Moridin in action once.  He seemed to be using TP at that time, and Rand had no way to judge that which he could not perceive.

 

So, truthfully speaking, we have no real idea how transmigration affects the strength of a channeler.

[Dbob]

Unless R.J. mentioned it. Does anyone know if he did?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

I'm sorry, but there is no coherent way to answer two sets of mutually exclusive expectations about how channeling strength works.  You and BrainFireBob need to get together and decide how strong Moiraine was.

 

Just for the record: I consider Cabriana to now be a better candidate also.

[BrainFireBob]

We're told quite clearly how strong Moiraine is.

 

She's as strong as pre-stilled Siuane, Elaida, Lelaine, and Romanda.

 

That's the top tier of surviving "Tower" channellers before the Wondergirls and before they discovered Cadsuane still lived.

 

We're told quite clearly how strong Cyndane is.

 

From Cyndane herself, weaker than she was as Lanfear.

 

From Graendal, stronger than Graendal.

 

This is straight from the books, so I fail to see what problem you have with Moiraine's strength- this is pretty specific.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I can only refer you to Ch 6 - Gateways form tFoH

... The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it cease to exist.  The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern.  You are much stronger.  Very much so."

 

It's pretty well known that LTT was the strongest channeler of the AoL.  But, only slightly more powerful than Ishy.  It's always been debatable whether Ishy was more powerful than Lanfear.  Moiraine's own admission means there is a gulf between her and Rand that is far greater than the slight difference between LTT and Ishy or Lanfear.  Indeed, in FOH we shortly see that Lanfear , unaided, is nearly able to overcome any defense Rand can mount.  We know from Moiraine's letter that she would have been able to do so had Moiraine not intervened.

 

Thus the gulf between Moiraine and Lanfear's strength is about equal to the gulf between Moirain and Rand's strength.  And, Rand is "very much" stronger than Moiraine.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

lanfear had an angreal to use against rand at the docks in FoH

[Majsju]

lanfear had an angreal to use against rand at the docks in FoH

 

And, Rand was most likely quite a bit from his full strength at that point.

[BrainFireBob]

Which is a single quote that says Moiraine can only produce weak balefire- she can at least produce it.

 

This is insufficient to conclude she is weak, especially in light of the fact that we have *multiple* quotes establishing that Moiraine is a quite strong channeller.

[Jehaine]

Which is a single quote that says Moiraine can only produce weak balefire- she can at least produce it.

 

This is insufficient to conclude she is weak, especially in light of the fact that we have *multiple* quotes establishing that Moiraine is a quite strong channeller.

 

Indeed. And given that the only known usage of balefire stems from the AoL, where the channelers were known to be much, much stronger than your average Aes Sedai now, i'd call being able to produce even weak balefire a compliment on Moiraine's behalf.

 

That she's relatively weak in comparison to Rand and the Forsaken, and it being in her best interests to appear weak (else, like Siuan, she'd never have made it out of the Tower) is another thing entirely. Keep in mind that Mog and Nyn battling it out scared the crap out of the Black Ajah -- all experienced Aes Sedai! -- from sheer OP usage. Which means, they doubted they'd stand a chance even when linked, as proven by them breaking out the balefire rod and shooting on sight.

[Bob T Dwarf]

This is insufficient to conclude she is weak

 

No what I said was that by her own admission, she wasn't that strong.  And that is exactly the gist of what she said.  When she said it she was comparing herself to Rand.  The books demonstrate that Lanfear was nearly as strong as Rand was at that point.

 

Therefore it follows that Moiraine was not nearly as strong as Lanfear.  Nuthin too complicated about it.

[BrainFireBob]

That doesn't make her weak, that just makes her not *that* strong, with reference to the particular level of Lanfear.

[bRANDan]

And, Rand was most likely quite a bit from his full strength at that point.

 

I believe Rand had the little fat man angreal at the time too. Which, I think, is why he held her off as long as he did.

[Luckers]

We infer that strength remains constant.  We do that solely based on the fact that neither Osan'gar nor Aran'gar spent twelve pages moaning about a loss of strength.  And, that none of the others mention their strength at all.  Not, too surprising.  The others consider them non-entities to begin with.

 

We've only seen Moridin in action once.  He seemed to be using TP at that time, and Rand had no way to judge that which he could not perceive.

 

So, truthfully speaking, we have no real idea how transmigration affects the strength of a channeler.

 

Actually, we don't do anything of the sort. It is directly stated that the Forsaken concluded that Cyndane was not Lanfear because they did not have the same strength--the direct inference is that the other three retained precisely their original strength.

 

So, truthfully speaking, it appears that we have a very clear idea.

 

Luckers -

 

I'm sorry, but there is no coherent way to answer two sets of mutually exclusive expectations about how channeling strength works.  You and BrainFireBob need to get together and decide how strong Moiraine was.

 

Just for the record: I consider Cabriana to now be a better candidate also.

 

We need to do nothing of the sort--there is nothing mutually exclusive about the evidence in play. The information in the books is quite clear--but if you were asking for a direct line of evidence showing Cyndane to be stronger than Moiraine, so be it. Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, Graendal is stronger than Someryn, Someryn is stronger than Amys and Amys is as strong as Moiraine. Ergo Cyndane is stronger than Moiraine.

 

Quote

... The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it cease to exist.  The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern.  You are much stronger.  Very much so."

 

It's pretty well known that LTT was the strongest channeler of the AoL.  But, only slightly more powerful than Ishy.  It's always been debatable whether Ishy was more powerful than Lanfear.  Moiraine's own admission means there is a gulf between her and Rand that is far greater than the slight difference between LTT and Ishy or Lanfear.  Indeed, in FOH we shortly see that Lanfear , unaided, is nearly able to overcome any defense Rand can mount.  We know from Moiraine's letter that she would have been able to do so had Moiraine not intervened.

 

Thus the gulf between Moiraine and Lanfear's strength is about equal to the gulf between Moirain and Rand's strength.  And, Rand is "very much" stronger than Moiraine.

 

I'm not sure what your point is here. Moiraine would be around a 60, maybe 65. Lanfear would be a 100, and Rand a 109. So yes, the gulf is vast--though whilst Moiraine is not in their playing field she is far from weak.

 

But what has that to do with anything? Cyndane is conciderably stronger than Moiraine, hence the argument is completely void.

 

Indeed. And given that the only known usage of balefire stems from the AoL, where the channelers were known to be much, much stronger than your average Aes Sedai now, i'd call being able to produce even weak balefire a compliment on Moiraine's behalf.

 

Thats disengenuos. The use of Balefire stopped because of its effects, not because of the requisite strength needed to create it. We have no information speaking to a need for strength, merely speaking of the effect of strength on the outcome.

 

That she's relatively weak in comparison to Rand and the Forsaken, and it being in her best interests to appear weak (else, like Siuan, she'd never have made it out of the Tower) is another thing entirely. Keep in mind that Mog and Nyn battling it out scared the crap out of the Black Ajah -- all experienced Aes Sedai! -- from sheer OP usage. Which means, they doubted they'd stand a chance even when linked, as proven by them breaking out the balefire rod and shooting on sight.

 

I'm sorry, I'm confused by what you are saying... for one thing, she made no efforts to appear weak. Her strength was well known, and it placed her at the top of the hierarchy, equalled only by Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine and Suian, and exceeded only by Cadsuane. And Suian's fall had nothing to do with strength.

 

What has that to do with her being as strong as Cyndane--she was not.

 

No what I said was that by her own admission, she wasn't that strong.  And that is exactly the gist of what she said.  When she said it she was comparing herself to Rand.  The books demonstrate that Lanfear was nearly as strong as Rand was at that point.

 

Therefore it follows that Moiraine was not nearly as strong as Lanfear.  Nuthin too complicated about it.

 

Nice attempt to wriggle, but your original point was not that Moiraine was not as strong as Lanfear, but rather that Moiraine and Cyndane might be the same person because they were both weaker than Lanfear.

 

You were wrong, at least have the decency to admit it rather than trying to present the idea that we were arguing something else.

[bronnt]

New here, but I've lurked around these forums for a while.  I found this discussion and just had to contribute.

 

I've always had a theory about Cyndane/Lanfear and I'm somewhat surprised that no one else here has come up with it, considering the vast number of interesting ideas I've seen tossed about that would never have occured to me.

 

Some have mentioned an idea that Moiraine and Lanfear might have severed by being in the doorway as it was destroyed, and that is how the Finns were able to hold women who could channel.  I always thought it was simpler-that without the doorway, there was no way for the women to remove themself from the slightly different reality that Finns live in. So I assumed that Lanfear had made a deal with the Eelfinn, and THAT resulted in her diminished strength.  In WH, Cyndane references her dimished strength to being held by the Finns, not being granted her new body. 

 

Then the woman struck at her, and she suffered her second shock.  She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her!

WH 758

 

It's not exactly a fully fleshed out theory since we have no precedent that the Finns affect someone's ability to channel.  But if they demanded a price be paid for her soul to be returned to the Dark One, that's something they might have done, being sadistic as they are.  It might explain why Moiraine is still held while Lanfear is free-Moiraine was unwilling to make any deals, and she had already taken measures to provide herself a means out with Thom's letter.

 

Plus, I've always believed that Aran'Gar's confusion about the identity of Cyndane based on her reduced strength to be evidence that a new body shouldn't reflect on the strength of the channeler. Aran'Gar would be in a position to know if that was normal.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I've found others who've mentioned this theory.  Just didn't see it in this thread.  Still, I enter my quote as evidence supporting this theory.