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Three Oaths - lying


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Guest leebarr

The WT has had 3000 years to find holes in the oaths. It's not really mentioned but i think must new AS sits around with a friend just to see what they can and can not say

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  • 1 year later...

      Here is a specific example I would like to have explained to me.

 

    Quote (New Spring: the novel; Chapter 12, pg. 180)

 

    Setting her teacup on the tray, Siuan knelt beside Moiraine's chair and put her hands on the other woman's shoulders.  "We'll find a way out," she said, putting far more confidence into her voice than she felt.  "We'll find a way."  She was a little surprised the First Oath allowed her to say those words.  She could imagine no way out for either of them.

 

    Has Siuan side-stepped the First Oath, or is she lying?  What loophole exists for her to think in this manner and say what she did?

 

    This really struck me as weird.  Any comments?  (I hope this thread hasn't been deserted) :P

 

         

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That is a good one, JScott, and Id answer ya if I could!!!

 

The main thing that Yours Truly (I mean 'Me' lol) has never understood about The Oath about Lying Deal is:

 

The books explicitly state that INTENTION is the key...Well that works both ways...When Moiraine Damodred said ''You may call me Alys'' she may have used sneaky wording, but her INTENT was still Deciet!!!

 

Of course, we are all, I think, learning that just because the books explicitly state something doesn't mean we should take it to heart...Alot has changed (or BS changes, or RJ changed late in the game)...For example, we were explicitly told for most of the series that Moggy was the weakest channeler od the Chosen and Messana was second weakest...we were also clearly told about Lanfear's belt being a Ter'angreal and Cyndane being very very very weak in the Power but reading alot of threads ont his board and quotes from Mr Sanderson, it seems that is all being rewritten at this late stage for reasons i do not understand.

 

Remember Friends...A Wise Man Once Said: ''Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.''

 

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I dont remember that exact passage, so I dont know exactly what "We'll find a way out" is refering to, but here is my guess.  Siuan cannot think of the out.  But that does not Moiraine might not come up with something, or the two of them working together on it.  Or it could be she subconciously was already working out the problem.  Or speaking of a future that hasn't happened yet, it is not a lie at all.  Or siuan believes at her core that there is no such thing as a problem without a solution.  She may see no solution at the time, and see it as a lie, but would not stop working on the issue.

 

For that matter the actual oath is "To speak no word that is not true."  Notice the wording.  It does not say "To speak no lies."  In that is the largest loophole.  By applying the proper logic you could convice yourself that it is a double negative and it cancel itself out.  We already know that the oaths restrain by ones perceptions.  One bound can speak a lie, for instance, if they are unaware of the truth.

 

As for deceit, the oath says nothing about being decietfull.  That is no obstacle to the three oaths, it is all about intentions.

 

And Cyndane was never described as weak, just weaker then lanfear.

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For example, we were explicitly told for most of the series that Moggy was the weakest channeler od the Chosen and Messana was second weakest...we were also clearly told about Lanfear's belt being a Ter'angreal and Cyndane being very very very weak in the Power but reading alot of threads ont his board and quotes from Mr Sanderson, it seems that is all being rewritten at this late stage for reasons i do not understand.
Actually, we were never told any of that. Implcitly or explicitly.

 

Remember Friends...A Wise Man Once Said: ''Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.''
How about "check your facts before posting"?
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Graendal notes that Cyndane is stronger than her in the Power. Where is this clear statement that Lanfear has a belt Ter'angreal? She had a bracelet angreal, that I do remember, but I cant remember hearing about a belt or a Ter'angreal.

 

You can not remember hearing about it because it has never been mentioned. Lanfear had an angreal, which Moiraine took away from her in Cairhien, that is it.

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Mr Ares, regarding the following information:

 

For example, we were explicitly told for most of the series that Moggy was the weakest channeler od the Chosen and Messana was second weakest...we were also clearly told about Lanfear's belt being a Ter'angreal and Cyndane being very very very weak in the Power but reading alot of threads ont his board and quotes from Mr Sanderson, it seems that is all being rewritten at this late stage for reasons i do not understand.

 

Mr Ares, I am sorry if you disagree with this information, but pretty much ALL of it is VERY well known and understood very very implicitly...and actually has been for several books (and many years) now...There is no factual disputing this.

 

Its EXACTLY the same as the ''Moridn is Ishmael Reborn'' thing...

 

I mean, how ''Implicit'' do you really need something to be, Sir?

 

Also, I know you have seen all of those things talked about and stated many times by many people in many threads on many boards for many years now...Do you know what that means? When enough people say something?

 

I said: Remember Friends...A Wise Man Once Said: ''Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.''

 

Mr Ares asked: How about "check your facts before posting"?

 

...No, I actually don't think he said that...

 

 

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I certainly know nothing of a belt ter'angreal of Lanfears.  And sorry dude, but cyndane was never described as weak, just weaker.  For that, some of the confusion may be coming from BS.  If you go to the gathering storm spoiler page and read the Q&A faqs from the signing, they discuss this issue rather thoroughly.  I am assuming you have read tGS and will not be spoiled by what you might find there.  

 

But here is some of the little we actualy know from POV.  Cyndane is stronger then Graendal (who is still quite strong for a woman).  We know that from Graendals POV.  

"The girl was stronger in the One Power that she herself! Even in her own Age, that has been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women." Graendal about Cyndane (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12)

We know Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear was, and assumed it had to do with the 'finns.

"She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger." Cyndane about Alivia (Winter's Heart, Chapter 35)
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the whole oaths thing i hope gets wiped out in the series. are the AS going to force the BT to swear oaths so they can eventually cooperate? they really should cooperate for that matter, how's that line go about the greatest things in the age of legends were done with female and males linked

 

and seeing how the oath roads, 'binders' were actually devices to punish criminals in the age of legends, and how the AS post-breaking didn't swear the 3 oaths, and how the oath road reduces longevity, egwene really should revert back to her previous thinking and get rid of the 3 oaths. if the seanchan try to collar an AS, will the AS think her life is in danger? seanchan want them to live afterall

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The whole point is though Aes Sedai can lie if they think they speak the truth or believe what they say to be true (such as when a black sister says the Elaida is black), they can lie by omission, and they definitely can deceive as long as they phrase whatever they say right. Moraine can say "We'll find a way" because all though she "could imagine no way out  for either of them" deep down she believes that somehow it will all work out, that it has to work out.

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The whole point is though Aes Sedai can lie if they think they speak the truth or believe what they say to be true (such as when a black sister says the Elaida is black), they can lie by omission, and they definitely can deceive as long as they phrase whatever they say right. Moraine can say "We'll find a way" because all though she "could imagine no way out  for either of them" deep down she believes that somehow it will all work out, that it has to work out.

 

Not disagreeing on the point of the perception of the speaker, cause yes, if they perceive something as true, regardless of it's actual truth, they can say it. A black sister could call Elaida black though as they aren't bound by the same oath's.

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I was referring to when she is resworn in KoD when Aes Sedai (sorry still can't remember their names) are searching for black sisters. She had to tell the truth after she was resworn to the three oaths and the obedience one, and honestly thought Elaida was black, when it was actually Alviarin.

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Mr Ares, regarding the following information:

 

For example, we were explicitly told for most of the series that Moggy was the weakest channeler od the Chosen and Messana was second weakest...we were also clearly told about Lanfear's belt being a Ter'angreal and Cyndane being very very very weak in the Power but reading alot of threads ont his board and quotes from Mr Sanderson, it seems that is all being rewritten at this late stage for reasons i do not understand.

 

Mr Ares, I am sorry if you disagree with this information, but pretty much ALL of it is VERY well known and understood very very implicitly...and actually has been for several books (and many years) now...There is no factual disputing this.

 

Its EXACTLY the same as the ''Moridn is Ishmael Reborn'' thing...

 

I mean, how ''Implicit'' do you really need something to be, Sir?

Well, if you say it was explicit, then no amount of implicitness is enough.If it is explicit, I it actually needs to be explicit, or you are wrong.

 

Also, I know you have seen all of those things talked about and stated many times by many people in many threads on many boards for many years now...Do you know what that means? When enough people say something?
Yeah. It means a lot of people are wrong. Truth is not determined by the number of people saying something. How about you provide a quote, any quote, for any of that stuff. Many people assume Moggy is the weakest Chosen. Every time people are called on it, they fail to produce a quote. There is nothing to say it is so, yet many think it is. Well, it might be, but that is unsupported. Mesaana being second weakest is again something we are never told. Indeed, it isn't even as popular an opinion than Moggy being weakest. It is also wholly without support in the text. Lanfear's belt being a ter'angreal was never mentioned in the books, nor so much as hinted at, you've made that up. Cyndane was described as weaker than Lanfear, but stronger than Graendal, and Graendal is herself stronger than most men. So if Graendal is very strong, according to the books (the ones written by RJ), and Cyndane is stronger, then it doesn't square with her being "very, very weak". There is nothing in the books to say explicitly what you claim, nor is it hinted at, not once. If you disagree, provide a quote. Not opinions, actual quotes, from the books or RJ or BS.

 

I said: Remember Friends...A Wise Man Once Said: ''Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.''

 

Mr Ares asked: How about "check your facts before posting"?

 

...No, I actually don't think he said that...

A wise man certainly said it, although it might not be the same one you were thinking of. And it is certainly good advice. Now, not one bit of what you said was ever in the books, implicitly or explicitly, and so neither BS nor RJ can be acused of changing things at a late stage. You are completely wrong. And if you disagree, like I said, provide a quote. Popular opinion means nothing. The facts of the series are not determined by popular vote. I would like to see the references to Moghedien being weakest, Mesaana being next, Cyndane being very weak, Lanfear having a belt ter'angreal, I really would. But they don't exist, so I never will.
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Well, that was rude.  All true, but Mr Ares you could have a little more tact. Yes he got defensive, big deal.  No reason to rub his nose in his mistake.

 

We're on a board of people that take this series very seriously.

 

Gettin your nose rubbed in the facts is to be expected.

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