Lews Therin Telamon killed Asmodean

[Evad Bel-Burg]

Hi Guys, had a thought after listening to part 2 of the Asmodean-podcast:

 

What if Lews completely took over Rand's body, Travelled to where the murder occured, took out Asmodean, Skimmed to his rooms (thereby throwing Asmo's body into the infinite nothingness beyond the platform Rand Skimmed on), and appeared again?

 

Give me a moment here: RJ said that the killer is obvious. Who else knows more about the Forsaken than Lews? He would have studied them during the War of Power wouldn't he? And Asmo was taken by melancholy moods (that Rand saw, and thereby, Lews) and when a man's melancholy, what does he do? He drinks.

 

Lews had motive, too: I mean, the Chosen destroyed his world and his life and caused his name to be reviled through thousands of years.

 

And if Lews  could have taken over Rand's body (and Rand didn't remember this), he had opportunity.

 

Asmo would have looked up, seen Rand (but not Rand) standing there, seen the intent in Rand's face, and might just have realized he was looking at Lews before he died.

 

Still leaves open how he was killed, but hey. :-)

 

So, what do you all think?

[Jehaine]

Hmm.. i'd tend to disagree. If that were the case, Lews would have taken over Rand's body on at least several other occasions as well that i can think of.

 

Also, lets not forget about the taint. The shock of coming into contact with it would more than likely 'wake' Rand back up, putting him back in control (and more than likely create random weaves to ease teh pressure again, alerting everyone in five miles)

 

Nice theory though ^^

[Evad Bel-Burg]

Thanks for your comments. :-) I realize I need to get a bit more evidence in. :-)

[Mr Ares]

Firstly, Asmo debate goes in the Asmo threads. Secondly, your theory involves Rand suddenly being taken over by LTT, leaving his meeting with Bashere in order to kill Asmo (Bashere never mentions something odd like this happening), killing Asmo, returning and getting on with the meeting and Rand having no memory of this happening...this is supposed to be obvious??? Ridiculous. Just save time and give up on this theory now. Too many assumptions, too much random inventing of stuff with no basis in the books for no reason. It doesn't work.

 

EDIT: Here is a new, milder version of the above post:

Firstly, Asmo debate goes in the Asmo threads. Secondly, your theory involves Rand suddenly being taken over by LTT, leaving his meeting with Bashere in order to kill Asmo (Bashere never mentions something odd like this happening), killing Asmo, returning and getting on with the meeting and Rand having no memory of this happening...this is supposed to be obvious? I'm afraid it just doesn't work. Asmo's fear at seeing someone on the far side of that door isn't really compatible with him seeing Rand, unless LTT was using a Mask of Mirrors, but this just involves piling assumption on assumption needlessly. Finally, "obvious" is the least useful clue we have to finding the killer, simply because what is obvious varies quite a lot from person to person.

[Davian93]

Firstly, Asmo debate goes in the Asmo threads. Secondly, your theory involves Rand suddenly being taken over by LTT, leaving his meeting with Bashere in order to kill Asmo (Bashere never mentions something odd like this happening), killing Asmo, returning and getting on with the meeting and Rand having no memory of this happening...this is supposed to be obvious???? Ridiculous. Just save time and give up on this theory now. Too many assumptions, too much random inventing of stuff with no basis in the books for no reason. It doesn't work.

 

Wow...I agree with Ares.  That's a different feeling.  It doesn't exactly pass the Sanity Test or Occams Razor.  Most debate usually settles between Graendal, Lanfear or Slayer being the culprit.  Personally, I've supported both sides of the argument over the years, at first leaning towards Lanfear but lately (last few rereads) I've begun to think that Graendal did it...or possibly Bela the horse.

 

Think about the requirements for the killer:

 

1. Able to be in Camelyn at the time of killing (this eliminate Padan Fain and Mazrim Taim, two popular choices)

 

2. Known by Asmo (the whole "You? NO!" comment) and feared.  That tends to put it in the Shadow camp as Asmo knew he was dead as soon as he saw the culprit.  Rand wouldn't fall into that category.

 

3. Intuitively obvious by the end of Path of Daggers.

 

People that outright can't be the killer: Moridin (specifically debunked by RJ), Sammael (still believes him to be alive or that Rand killed him via Sammael POV), Demandred (doesn't know what happened to Asmo as of LoC prologue), Moggy (prisoner at the time), etc etc.

 

I'm not going any deeper than that.

[aevogt]

My main problem with the theory is that if this were the case, LTT would be waling around for the last 6 books and Rand al'Thor would be a voice in the back of his head

[Evad Bel-Burg]

Wow guys, sorry I opened my mouth! There were better ways of telling me that you didn't agree with me, don't you think?

 

Retreating! Retreating!

[Paviel]

Firstly, Asmo debate goes in the Asmo threads. Secondly, your theory involves Rand suddenly being taken over by LTT, leaving his meeting with Bashere in order to kill Asmo (Bashere never mentions something odd like this happening), killing Asmo, returning and getting on with the meeting and Rand having no memory of this happening...this is supposed to be obvious???? Ridiculous. Just save time and give up on this theory now. Too many assumptions, too much random inventing of stuff with no basis in the books for no reason. It doesn't work.

 

Wow...I agree with Ares.  That's a different feeling.  It doesn't exactly pass the Sanity Test or Occams Razor.  Most debate usually settles between Graendal, Lanfear or Slayer being the culprit.  Personally, I've supported both sides of the argument over the years, at first leaning towards Lanfear but lately (last few rereads) I've begun to think that Graendal did it...or possibly Bela the horse.

 

Think about the requirements for the killer:

 

1. Able to be in Camelyn at the time of killing (this eliminate Padan Fain and Mazrim Taim, two popular choices)

 

2. Known by Asmo (the whole "You? NO!" comment) and feared.  That tends to put it in the Shadow camp as Asmo knew he was dead as soon as he saw the culprit.  Rand wouldn't fall into that category.

 

3. Intuitively obvious by the end of Path of Daggers.

 

People that outright can't be the killer: Moridin (specifically debunked by RJ), Sammael (still believes him to be alive or that Rand killed him via Sammael POV), Demandred (doesn't know what happened to Asmo as of LoC prologue), Moggy (prisoner at the time), etc etc.

 

I'm not going any deeper than that.

 

Bela doesn't fall into the category of being known and feared by Asmo...

[Guest Dreadlord]

Personally I disagree with the theory, though not as harshly as some people seem to.

[Luckers]

Yeah guys, a bit harsh huh?

 

I disagree as well, but keep contributing and don't let people bully you into shutting up. I mean if people still find ways to argue the Lanfear dunnit theory, im not sure anyone can sneer at yours.

[Evad Bel-Burg]

I appreciate your comments, and thanks for being nice about it. :-) I realize i am a newbie on the site, and im only on my second re-reading of the books, but hey, we are all fans of RJ and what he accomplished with THE series, so it would be nice that everyone would at least respect other opinions but it can't always be that way. But thanks for being cool and for the encouragement. :-) Im sure my theories will change, or ill just get proper evidence. :-)

[aevogt]

I wasn't intending to sound harsh and if I did I apologize.  It's certainly no more outlandish than some of the stuff I've come up with on this board.

[Evad Bel-Burg]

No not you. :-) I was talking about Mr Ares reply. :-) Nothing wrong with yours man, no worries. :-)

[Mr Ares]

No not you. :-) I was talking about Mr Ares reply. :-) Nothing wrong with yours man, no worries. :-)

In retrospect, my reply did come across as harsher than I had intended. I have modified it, adding a new version of the reply - is the new version more reasonable or still too harsh? Sometimes it can be hard to judge whether people think I my tone bullying or not, even if it is not intended in that way (and bullying was not intended) And to be fair, it isn't even the most loony LTT-dunnit theory I have read (that involved LTT separating from Rand in T'A'R, entering the real world and killing Asmo before disappearing, while his conciousness reentered Rand. See, far crazier.), let alone the most loony Who Killed Asmo theory. Plus, the whole argument borders on the ridiculous anyway. No hard feelings?

[cheyjade]

I realize i am a newbie on the site, and im only on my second re-reading of the books...

 

You'll pick up all the details on your upcoming re-re-readthrough, and then the re-re-re-readthrough. I think I'm on the re-re-re-re-readthrough, counting the audiobooks I'm doing now...

 

I've got a friend at work who has been reading the books since they first came out. Every time a new one comes out, he tries to re-read the series through. He's just so slow, and so busy with everything else (video games) that he never makes it. He just ends up reading TEOTW, and then the latest one as it comes out, and can't remember the plotlines, or characters. I showed him some of the character artwork I've collected, and he didn't know who Lanfear or Graendal were. Even after I explained it. 'The Forsaken, Scott. Lanfear's in love with Rand? Graendal keeps her servants compelled? ARG!'

 

*slaps forehead*

 

Maybe he can catch up now that he's downloading all the audiobooks, and we can listen to our mp3 players at work. In the meantime, I can talk with at least three other co-workers about how much WOT rocks. That's almost all of the bookworms I work with. :D

 

Back to topic. I'm convinced it was Lanfear who killed Asmodean. When she shielded him and 'gave' him to Rand, she wanted Rand to learn and join her. But when Kadere told her that Rand was doing Aviendah, she wanted Rand dead. Thus, Asmodean lost all usefulness to her. First opportunity..PZZZHT!

[benr]

Throw this out there:  if not LTT, why not Rand?

[aussie_ashaman123]

Throw this out there:  if not LTT, why not Rand?

 

Rand's miffed coz he believed Asmodean ran off.

 

I'd probably my money on Graendal, if it was Simi or Mesaana, Demandred would probably know, they have like a partnership going on. Besides, I cant see Simi letting Asmo off with a quick simple death. If it was Slayer, there would be a body, and I think at that point Lanfear in with the Finns.

 

 

[Evad Bel-Burg]

Hey Ares, no hard feelings at all, and i appreciate the apology. :-) Like i said, need to get the re-reads done (Winternight and Narg now await me) so im sure ill either agree with the Graendal or Lanfear theories or hit upon something else. :-) But here is (as Ben from the podcast would say) a crazy theory: i believe that ta'veren were all at some stage Dragons. Powerful ta'verens like Rand and Hawkwing are reborn as is needed, but guys like Mat and Perrin are brought back again and again in different guises and roles to keep the balance. Im thinking if Ishamael could escape the Bore as often as he did, the would have been able to wreak much more havok is there was no counter to him. But that brings me to my whole 'Recharging of the Wheel' theory which im still considering. What do u think, sound plausible? And sorry about the 1-paragraph thing, ive just sent this from my cellphone.

[Moghedian]

And sorry about the 1-paragraph thing, ive just sent this from my cellphone.

 

Off topic, but -WOW- how do you do that?

[Saidar]

It isn't LLT who killed Asmodean.

I think it's Graendal but then again I'm not sure. I think I once read that Graendal was afraid of Rand so she'd rather stay away from him. So why would she attack Asmodean, who's close to Rand? On the other hand it could also been Semi. When don't know much about her do we...

[Evad Bel-Burg]

I just type in the web address exactly as it is and use my browser. :-) Its pretty cool, the first thing i see is RJs face (and not much else except a very simplified -that is, without any extra graphics, pics, colours, etc - rendering of the site, but its all there. :-)

[Paviel]

Yeah, Lanfear was with the Finns. The same Finns who granted Mat three wishes...

[Mr Ares]

Back to topic. I'm convinced it was Lanfear who killed Asmodean. When she shielded him and 'gave' him to Rand, she wanted Rand to learn and join her. But when Kadere told her that Rand was doing Aviendah, she wanted Rand dead. Thus, Asmodean lost all usefulness to her. First opportunity..PZZZHT!

I see. So she wants Rand dead, and yet kills Asmo. That makes sense. And she was incarcerated by the Finns at this point in time, not to mention probably severed, and how the hell could she even get into the palace? The harder you look at Lanfear, the less sense she makes as a candidate.

 

On the other hand it could also been Semi. When don't know much about her do we...

We do know she thought to herself in Threads Woven of Shadow in LOC that she isn't sure he is dead. Memory loss, perhaps?

 

Yeah, Lanfear was with the Finns. The same Finns who granted Mat three wishes...

Bit different. Mat walks through the door normally. L+M destroy it on their way in. Try it yourself. Ram your car through the front of a shop near you and see if you are treated like a normal customer

 

But here is (as Ben from the podcast would say) a crazy theory: i believe that ta'veren were all at some stage Dragons. Powerful ta'verens like Rand and Hawkwing are reborn as is needed, but guys like Mat and Perrin are brought back again and again in different guises and roles to keep the balance. Im thinking if Ishamael could escape the Bore as often as he did, the would have been able to wreak much more havok is there was no counter to him. But that brings me to my whole 'Recharging of the Wheel' theory which im still considering. What do u think, sound plausible?

Mat and Perrin are brought back again and again in different guises? Sounds like the Heroes of the Horn to me. Except when they saw the Heroes, only Rand was addressed as one of them. Maybe they were just ignoring Mat and Perrin's Hero-ness. More likely, those two are just ordinary souls who were made ta'veren. And ta'veren are not reborn differently from any other souls. People are made ta'veren for a time, as and when it is needed.

 

Disclaimer: Mr Ares does not endorse the ramming of cars through shop windows.

[Evad Bel-Burg]

Good point Ares, i didnt look at it from that way. It certainly does make sense.

[Luckers]

Disclaimer: Mr Ares does not endorse the ramming of cars through shop windows.

 

No, he prefers to express his disdain for the retail industry with a bazooka.