Why all of the hatred toward Elayne?

[42Bonzo88]

    First of all, Elayne is not my favorite character although I like the humorus things that happen to her (being pregnant for one thing)

 

    Alot of things I have read on these forums have her as a whinny spoiled brat who's used to getting things her way and assuming people will do what she wants.  SHE IS A PRINCESS!!! That is how she is supposed to act. She assumes that she can put herself in danger and somebody will come to her aid because that is what happens to princesses. I think as a member of a royal family that she is pretty levelheaded as most go. She put up with a lot during the time in the WT and she has the sense to see if someone knows better than she to learn from his or her instruction (the Aiel, Aviendah in particular in TDR on the way to Tear)

 

    If you're going to slam one of the girls for putting on airs, it is NYNAEVE by far.

[Baldar]

I don't "hate" her, there's just times when I'd like to throttle her. Acting like an ass and not thanking Rand for saving her kingdom *really* rubbed me the wrong way.

[BKVMC]

i lost  a great  deal of respect  for the character of Elayne  when  she  tried to    capture the  BA sisters in  caemlyn( against everyones advice except vandene who wasnt thinking right )  and  only succeded in getting 2  sisters killed and i  dont kow how many  soldiers  killed  and never  really had any  strong emotion about it (  according to  the way Birgette said the bond felt)

[Harmless Bandit]

Alot of things I have read on these forums have her as a whinny spoiled brat who's used to getting things her way and assuming people will do what she wants.   SHE IS A PRINCESS!!! That is how she is supposed to act.

 

Says who? As a ruler she's supposed to have more than her share of common sense, but I would swear she left hers in Morgase's womb. Those months she spent in the Tower as a novice should have taught her that things don't always go her way (whatever her social standing).

 

She assumes that she can put herself in danger and somebody will come to her aid because that is what happens to princesses.

 

No offense, but that is the stupidest thing I've heard, and if she thinks like that, she is stupid. Tuon is in all sense a princess (though with a very different upbringing), but she doesn't throw her senses away because of that.

 

I think as a member of a royal family that she is pretty levelheaded as most go.

 

Hmm, Tuon, Faile, Berelain, are a few that act better than Elayne, though I'm not convinced about Faile.

 

She put up with a lot during the time in the WT and she has the sense to see if someone knows better than she to learn from his or her instruction (the Aiel, Aviendah in particular in TDR on the way to Tear)

 

That incident in KoD BKVMC mentioned doesn't exactly reflect that. And please, don't tell me it's because she is pregnant, and acting on her hormones. Being pregnant doesn't reduce one's level of intelligence. Not that I personally know  ;D that is an assumption on my part, though a correct one I would guess.

[slayerA]

And please, don't tell me it's because she is pregnant, and acting on her hormones. Being pregnant doesn't reduce one's level of intelligence. Not that I personally know  ;D that is an assumption on my part, though a correct one I would guess.

 

Well, being a rabid news and science reader, a woman's brain does shrink about 10% and they do score more poorly on memory or intelligence or both(I cannot recall for sure). Plus, Elayne was being feed a very poor diet which is not good a pregnant woman. But, I doubt had RJ had that in mind! Remember you have to let a woman have the right of it til the time is needed. 

[aevogt]

Though in KoD she did (granted, with a lot of assistance) capture most of the Black Sisters that escaped the Tower in TDR as well as decapitate most of the organized resistance aligned against her claim to the throne.

[Guest leebarr]

She is a brat. Just because you came from a royal family does not make you better then anyone else.

[Guest cw]

i lost  a great  deal of respect  for the character of Elayne  when  she  tried to    capture the  BA sisters in  caemlyn( against everyones advice except vandene who wasnt thinking right )  and  only succeded in getting 2  sisters killed and i  dont kow how many  soldiers  killed  and never  really had any  strong emotion about it (  according to  the way Birgette said the bond felt)

 

That was the straw that broke the camels back for me.  All she had to say when they finally get her back is, "I knew I'd be fine because Min told me my babies would be born healthy."

[Harmless Bandit]

Though in KoD she did (granted, with a lot of assistance) capture most of the Black Sisters that escaped the Tower in TDR as well as decapitate most of the organized resistance aligned against her claim to the throne.

 

In other words, the end justify the means?

Was the number of people who died in capturing those Black Sisters really worth it?

 

Everything has its price, but there comes a time when that price is too high. Would she have reacted the same way if Min had not told her that her babes would be born fine? I don't think so ;)

 

To parrot cw, that was her crowning achievement >:(

[Ahaz Flagg]

She is almost as arrogant as Egwene has become, that in itself is enough reason to hate her, she is very irrational, she thinks way to much of herself,  and just like in real life i do not like people like that.

[aevogt]

Considering that Vandene was slowly killing herself anyhow, (by refusing to eat) and would have paid any price to bring justice to her sister's killer, and that those captured Black sisters were responsible for scores of deaths, inculding several AS in the Tower, then yes, at the risk of starting a holy war here, in this instance, the ends do justify the means.  

 

Regardless of whether or not mistakes were made.

 

This is war.  People die.  

[Harmless Bandit]

Considering that Vandene was slowly killing herself anyhow, (by refusing to eat) and would have paid any price to bring justice to her sister's killer, and that those captured Black sisters were responsible for scores of deaths, inculding several AS in the Tower, then yes, at the risk of starting a holy war here, in this instance, the ends do justify the means.  

 

I think you missed my point. Was that the best they could come up with? Was there no alternative? I must point out that my memory is sketchy; I don't remember the exact circumstances, so perhaps that was the best plan, but I doubt it.

 

Regardless of whether or not mistakes were made.

 

This is war.  People die.

 

Mistakes can get you killed, as seen in this case. Mistakes that, IMHO, could have been avoided.

 

And it matters whether mistakes are made or not, even in this instance. I for one, having witnessed such a careless planning, would never want to be under Elayne's leadership on a battle field ;D

[Majsju]

I think you missed my point. Was that the best they could come up with? Was there no alternative? I must point out that my memory is sketchy; I don't remember the exact circumstances, so perhaps that was the best plan, but I doubt it.

 

The intelligence Elayne recieves says that there are only two BA in the house, which means she and her companions have quite the upper hand, since they are four, and have the benefit of surprise. Waiting means that the BA could recieve word of them being discovered, and either flee or call in reinforcements. Asking Windfinders for assistance is out of the question, and just using regular soldiers in case more BA had joined the party would only result in a bloodbath. Also, Elayne wants to capture the BA, not kill them, and there regular soldiers are really useless against channelers.

Also, calling in soldiers increases the risk of the BA learning about what is going on.

 

 

 

[Guest cw]

Basically, she had no plan and just winged it.  From what I remember, there were other options suggested.  We weren't told any details just that Elayne refused to consider any of them.

 

She had bad intelligence?  She never heard of the concept of setting a watch to make sure the situation doesn't change apparently.  Even thinking there were only two, she knew she was bringing a third with her.  Add to that, she didn't know which of the Aes Sedai she was bringing was Black.  Vandene was borderline suicidal, but Elayne simply tossed Sareitha to the dogs.  Elayne's attitude afterwards clearly showed that since she knew she was safe she didn't care about anyone else.

[wvlr]

Mostly I like ALL the characters in the books.  Until AKoD Elayne had not done anything that really ticked me off.    She had done some stupid stuff but not any worse that most the others.    That last part of AKoD did tick me off though.

 

She went charging into that situation with way too little preparation!    Plus - since she had the thief with her - she knew that the house had not been watched for at least 2 hours.  Of corse the situation (the number of BA in the house) could easily change in that time.  And it did.

 

Plus she knew that the BA had taken "things" from the WT when they left.  Not only that - the BA could easily have collected things even before or after they left.   

 

For me - that was the worst part of the entire book.    Not only that - her lack of remores at getting so many people killed - just added to my disgust.

[BKVMC]

Considering that Vandene was slowly killing herself anyhow, (by refusing to eat) and would have paid any price to bring justice to her sister's killer, and that those captured Black sisters were responsible for scores of deaths, inculding several AS in the Tower, then yes, at the risk of starting a holy war here, in this instance, the ends do justify the means.  

 

Regardless of whether or not mistakes were made.

 

This is war.  People die.  

 

And the  sad part is Elayne  Didnt capture anyone  she  flubbed up  got  2  aes sedai  killed and all their  warders  and  however many  hundreds or maybe thousands of  warriors  killed trying to  free her. the  people who  should  get credit for capturing the  Black sisters  are  Birgitte  and the windfinders Elayne had  zero zip zilch  to do with the true  capture of  the  BA  in caemlyn.( other than her good sense to have bonded Birgitte as a warder)

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think it was said that all non-black ajah aes sedai feel such hate and betrayal from them that it is worth any price to capture one. After all, suane sent the 3 potentially most powerful aes sedai in 1000 years, while untrained, to hunt 13 of them down.

 

Never mind the high price that was paid, it was paid by people who knew the risks and were willing to pay it

[BKVMC]

i think it was said that all non-black ajah aes sedai feel such hate and betrayal from them that it is worth any price to capture one. After all, suane sent the 3 potentially most powerful aes sedai in 1000 years, while untrained, to hunt 13 of them down.

 

Never mind the high price that was paid, it was paid by people who knew the risks and were willing to pay it

 

Pevara  and her groupies  are old school aes sedai  and are hunting the BA at this moment  and  yet they  showed discretion,  and  they  have more deeply rooted  beliefs  about aes sedai  than  elayne could  possibly  have.  The thing that  differs  between these 2 situations is  wisdom , age and experience  aes sedai as a rule dont  try  to  throw away  peoples  lives  as fodder( sure they use people but they  dont go around getting people killed) because they  feel a  responsibility for their fellow sisters  lives .  Elayne suffers  from a heroe complex  mostly relating to mins viewing of her babys being born  healthy  she  thinks she will be ok  and has little  thought of  what  might happen to other people that is her lack of training and immaturity  showing.

 

That being said i  dont hate the character i  just  hope she learned something.

[Asgard Thorin]

i lost  a great  deal of respect  for the character of Elayne  when  she  tried to     capture the  BA sisters in  caemlyn( against everyones advice except vandene who wasnt thinking right )  and  only succeded in getting 2  sisters killed and i  dont kow how many  soldiers  killed  and never  really had any  strong emotion about it (  according to  the way Birgette said the bond felt)

 

I have to agree, if only because they didn't take the Warders in. With one, two caveats(resevations, in other words) They weren't sure which Warders could be trusted, since Sareitha or Careanne were Black, and Elayne was absolutely right on one thing: they could not have anticipated the arrival of the others that very night. I think the section could have been more polished, but RJ had to make up for much lost time, with book 11. Another book that was as badly received as book 10 might have finished the series. He had to cram a lot in book 11.

 

Overall though, the chapters with Elayne/Nynaeve have grown, percentage wise, and it seems that women characters were towards the limit of RJ's ability(mine own female characters are far worse, for the moment). Basically, he had to devote more and more time to characters he was less able to write.  That is mine opinion.

[wvlr]

i think it was said that all non-black ajah aes sedai feel such hate and betrayal from them that it is worth any price to capture one. After all, suane sent the 3 potentially most powerful aes sedai in 1000 years, while untrained, to hunt 13 of them down.

 

Never mind the high price that was paid, it was paid by people who knew the risks and were willing to pay it

 

Pevara   and her groupies   are old school aes sedai  and are hunting the BA at this moment  and  yet they  showed discretion,  and  they  have more deeply rooted   beliefs  about aes sedai  than  elayne could  possibly  have.  The thing that  differs  between these 2 situations is  wisdom , age and experience  aes sedai as a rule dont  try  to  throw away  peoples  lives  as fodder( sure they use people but they  dont go around getting people killed) because they  feel a  responsibility for their fellow sisters  lives .  Elayne suffers  from a heroe complex  mostly relating to mins viewing of her babys being born  healthy  she  thinks she will be ok  and has little  thought of  what  might happen to other people that is her lack of training and immaturity   showing.

 

That being said i  dont hate the character i  just  hope she learned something.

 

Well, I agree with you in part but disagree in other parts.

 

Elayne's mistake was lack of proper preparation, caused by trying to rush things.  She was rushing things because she did not want them to get away.    -  Somewhat understandable but it does irratate me.

 

Pervara's group is overly cautious and as we have seen in the last two books, they have given the BA too much time.    They are rapidly loosing the element of surprise.    Just throwing the one slim advantage that they had away, by being too careful.

 

This irratates me as much as Elayne's mistake does.

 

Now she has taken several AS to the BT to bond Ash'amen - WITHOUT being sure that these AS are not Black!    Talk about reckless!

[Harmless Bandit]

i think it was said that all non-black ajah aes sedai feel such hate and betrayal from them that it is worth any price to capture one. After all, suane sent the 3 potentially most powerful aes sedai in 1000 years, while untrained, to hunt 13 of them down.

 

Never mind the high price that was paid, it was paid by people who knew the risks and were willing to pay it

 

Siuan didn't send the Wonder Girls because of her hate towards the Black Sisters. Nor is their (the Wonder Girls') strength in the Power something she considered, IIRC.

 

They were just novices, still far from their full potential, and untrained. That made them apparently harmless, and thus the appropriate candidates to go off chasing the Blacks. After all, who could be stupid enough to send three untrained novices against thirteen full Aes Sedai?

[Nerevar]

I don't really understand why everyone seems so angry about Elayne's plan, to be honest if every single plan the wonder girls made worked out WoT would be the most boring series ever. I liked the plot twist, it kept me interested and made me appreciate Birgitte and the Windfinders more.

 

Plus I think the only reason Siuan sent the wonder girls after the 13 black ajah sisters, wasn't because of their power or being the most unlikely choice, but because they were the only ones she could safely trust - as she states at the time, sometimes Aes Sedai say the truth clearly  :)

[Harmless Bandit]

I don't really understand why everyone seems so angry about Elayne's plan, to be honest if every single plan the wonder girls made worked out WoT would be the most boring series ever. I liked the plot twist, it kept me interested and made me appreciate Birgitte and the Windfinders more.

 

Something to do with her reaction (or lack of) afterwards, perhaps?

 

Plus I think the only reason Siuan sent the wonder girls after the 13 black ajah sisters, wasn't because of their power or being the most unlikely choice, but because they were the only ones she could safely trust - as she states at the time, sometimes Aes Sedai say the truth clearly  :)

 

Not the only reason, I would say, but a very good point nevertheless. I had forgotten about the trust thing.

[42Bonzo88]

    First of all, THANKS for all of the opinions. There was a lot of information to consider and even to the people who disagreed I enjoyed hearing.

    I will only bring up one thing again that I said in the beginning. Elayne is a princess. Yes, she went in with bad planning. Yes, she could have done it alot better. Hindsight is 20/20. But you grow up with ideas in your head that you are saving your country, with thousands of people (Andor) relying on you, you think different than regular people. You see all over modern presidents, queens, magistrates doing stupid things.  Sometimes 20 years from the time, it makes sense.

 

    I just was curious because I always had more of a problem with Nyneave than Elayne. Again thanks to everyone who responded.

 

[Guest cw]

    First of all, THANKS for all of the opinions. There was a lot of information to consider and even to the people who disagreed I enjoyed hearing.

    I will only bring up one thing again that I said in the beginning. Elayne is a princess. Yes, she went in with bad planning. Yes, she could have done it alot better. Hindsight is 20/20. But you grow up with ideas in your head that you are saving your country, with thousands of people (Andor) relying on you, you think different than regular people. You see all over modern presidents, queens, magistrates doing stupid things.  Sometimes 20 years from the time, it makes sense.

 

    I just was curious because I always had more of a problem with Nyneave than Elayne. Again thanks to everyone who responded.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you.  We aren't talking about some modern day princess who never has and never will have any real responsibilities to her people.  A princess like that would never survive in the setting of The Wheel of Time.  Elayne is living in a time and place were she is the honest to goodness ruler, not just a figurehead.  Sure she was pampered and raised somewhat out of touch with what life is really like, but the type of behavior you are claiming is normal for a princess would have been stamped out of her at a very young age.

 

I don't really understand why everyone seems so angry about Elayne's plan, to be honest if every single plan the wonder girls made worked out WoT would be the most boring series ever. I liked the plot twist, it kept me interested and made me appreciate Birgitte and the Windfinders more.

 

Something to do with her reaction (or lack of) afterwards, perhaps?

 

Right on the money.  I could forgive the bad plan.  It is her attitude afterwards that, the complete lack of acceptance of responsibility for her blunder, that I can't forgive.