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Ishamael.


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I just read the part in the BWB covering Hawkwing and it mentions he had a half-mad advisor who was possibly the cause of his sudden hate for Aes Sedai. In EotW Ishamael tells Rand in a dream that he "whispered" in Hawkwings ear and he attacked Tar Valon. It also says that the advisor didn't seem to age in the forty(?) years he was around. So was this advisor Ishamael?

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Guest Dreadlord

Ishamael also changed part of the Seanchan records of the Prophecies concerning Rand, making it say the Dragon Reborn would kneel to the Crystal Throne. Im sure it was Ishamael who started the Black Ajah as well

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I'm quite positive that Ishmael was the one who started the black ajah, i can't remember where, but Alviarin says somewhere that he came to her, and since Alviarin is the highest, it would make perfect sense that Ishmael started the black ajah. When do we learn that he changed the Seanchan prophecies? it sounds like something he'd do, but i can't seem to recall where it says anything about this.

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Guest Dreadlord

I cant remember but its obvious they have been changed as it says Rand must kneel to the Crystal Throne which is obviously not true, and the only one who could have changed it is Ishamael, as it would have had to be a long time ago in the story, long ago enough for it to be when Ishamael was partially bound.

 

As for the Black Ajah, it was set up way before Alviarin turned up, or at least thats what I was lead to believe. Cant remember where that was mentioned though but im sure the Black Ajah has been goin for quite a while

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It has never been confirmed that the Seanchan prophecies have been altered.  That said the line about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne seems out of place.  The Crystal Throne seems a bit too specific, and the bit about Rand kneeling seems a bit far fetched.  So the Seanchan prophecies have probably been changed.  Personally I believe that they were changed by an Emporer or Emporess to stoke their own ego, but Ishamael is equally if not more likely of a suspect.  I do not believe that we will ever know for sure.

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It has never been confirmed that the Seanchan prophecies have been altered.  That said the line about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne seems out of place.  The Crystal Throne seems a bit too specific, and the bit about Rand kneeling seems a bit far fetched.  So the Seanchan prophecies have probably been changed.  Personally I believe that they were changed by an Emporer or Emporess to stoke their own ego, but Ishamael is equally if not more likely of a suspect.  I do not believe that we will ever know for sure.

 

I do not feel like digging through all of RJ's q/a's, but you are mistaken. It has been confirmed by RJ.

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I cant remember but its obvious they have been changed as it says Rand must kneel to the Crystal Throne which is obviously not true, and the only one who could have changed it is Ishamael, as it would have had to be a long time ago in the story, long ago enough for it to be when Ishamael was partially bound.

 

As for the Black Ajah, it was set up way before Alviarin turned up, or at least thats what I was lead to believe. Cant remember where that was mentioned though but im sure the Black Ajah has been goin for quite a while

 

It was corrupted when Ishamael was advisor to Hawkwing.  That is part of what he meant when taunting Rand about sealing two dooms when Luthair Paendrag crossed the Aryth.  We also know from the Seanchan that the versions which contain the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne can all traced back to the copy Luthair took with him.

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Indeed, and aside from which we can prove it false using logic. Since we know the real prophecies state that he will bind the Nine Moons to serve him we know that the kneeling prophecy cant refering to him metaphorically bowing to Seanchan wishes, and since we know the main sequence novels will never again return to Seanchan we know that Rand wont physically kneel to the Crystal Throne. Those are the only two things that prophecy could mean, and both are impossible.

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I just read the part in the BWB covering Hawkwing and it mentions he had a half-mad advisor who was possibly the cause of his sudden hate for Aes Sedai. In EotW Ishamael tells Rand in a dream that he "whispered" in Hawkwings ear and he attacked Tar Valon. It also says that the advisor didn't seem to age in the forty(?) years he was around. So was this advisor Ishamael?

 

The Ishamael only being half-caught idea was confirmed by Rand's ancestral memory from the Rhuidean ter'angreal. One of his forefathers encountered an Aes Sedai who said that, before the Aiel took up the Way of the Leafed Spear.

 

I must confess that I had not thought of Ishamael being behind the Seanchan Prophecy Corruption. I thought Luthair had done it for his own reasons. But are the Seanchan prophecies the only ones that mention Perrin?

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I must confess that I had not thought of Ishamael being behind the Seanchan Prophecy Corruption. I thought Luthair had done it for his own reasons. But are the Seanchan prophecies the only ones that mention Perrin?
Verin asks him about giving up the axe for the hammer in TSR Goldeneyes, so probably not, unless we think Verin is familiar with the Seanchan version of the Prophecies.
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I must confess that I had not thought of Ishamael being behind the Seanchan Prophecy Corruption. I thought Luthair had done it for his own reasons. But are the Seanchan prophecies the only ones that mention Perrin?
Verin asks him about giving up the axe for the hammer in TSR Goldeneyes, so probably not, unless we think Verin is familiar with the Seanchan version of the Prophecies.

 

What if a copy of the corrupted prophices was in the tower and Verin found them? We know she tends to keep things to her self and not even tell the other sisters. Look at all those notes and things she squirled away along with that twisted stone ring, It wouldn't suprise me in the least.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]            starwars1.gif

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But are the Seanchan prophecies the only ones that mention Perrin?
Verin asks him about giving up the axe for the hammer in TSR Goldeneyes, so probably not, unless we think Verin is familiar with the Seanchan version of the Prophecies.
What if a copy of the corrupted prophices was in the tower and Verin found them? We know she tends to keep things to her self and not even tell the other sisters. Look at all those notes and things she squirled away along with that twisted stone ring, It wouldn't suprise me in the least.

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]  starwars1.gif

It may not be all that surprising if Verin had somehow got her hands on a copy of the Seanchan Prophecies, but do you honestly believe it more likely than she just read it in the normal, unaltered Prophecies found in the Westlands?
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I think the Seanchan prophecies are pretty much copies from the Westland ones, and such will have the same passages as the "real" ones, except from the very specific altered parts.

 

This is a storyline that lies in que to be resolved before TG can come, and I think many answers will come when (if?) Tuon meets Rand.

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I think the Seanchan prophecies are pretty much copies from the Westland ones, and such will have the same passages as the "real" ones, except from the very specific altered parts.

 

They would have had to remove the passage about him binding the Nine Moons to serve him, but other than that I suspect your probably right.

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Ishamael is likely the culprit for altering the Seanchan prophecies...  BUT the part of the Seanchan prophecies about the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal Throne might not necessarily be incorrect.  Tuan is now the Emperess (and represents the Crystal Throne) as she is the only living member of the imperial family.  Mat, one of Rand's best buddies, is now married to Tuan.  There may be some Two Rivers custom where folk kneel to newlyweds??  Rand is too full of himself to kneel for too many other reasons, I know.  Who knows, but I don't think it's too far-fetched now that Mat vicarously represents the Crystal Throne.  In a way, that could really confound things, as it would give the Seanchan a good arguement that their prophecies are true and the westland ones are corrupted (as it taught in Seanchan). 

 

 

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I think the Seanchan prophecies are pretty much copies from the Westland ones, and such will have the same passages as the "real" ones, except from the very specific altered parts.

 

They would have had to remove the passage about him binding the Nine Moons to serve him, but other than that I suspect your probably right.

I'm sure that would go over well with Tuon.
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Ishamael is likely the culprit for altering the Seanchan prophecies...  BUT the part of the Seanchan prophecies about the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal Throne might not necessarily be incorrect.

 

No, logically we can disprove it. The exact wording of 'kneeling to the Crystal Throne' requires one of two realities. One, it could mean that Rand submits to the authority of the Seanchan Empire, and thus metaphorically kneels to the Throne, and Two, it could mean that Rand physically kneels to the throne.

 

The first is disproven by the prophecy that Rand will bind the Nine Moons to serve him, the second is disproven by RJ's comment that the books will never again go to mainland Seanchan.

 

Mat, one of Rand's best buddies, is now married to Tuan.  There may be some Two Rivers custom where folk kneel to newlyweds??  Rand is too full of himself to kneel for too many other reasons, I know.  Who knows, but I don't think it's too far-fetched now that Mat vicarously represents the Crystal Throne.  In a way, that could really confound things, as it would give the Seanchan a good arguement that their prophecies are true and the westland ones are corrupted (as it taught in Seanchan). 

 

Simply kneeling to an individual does not seem to fulfil the prophecy. That sort of prevarication would be possible if it involved the actual Throne... but if its already getting metaphoric in its representation of that throne, its a bit too hard to add an additional misrepresentation.

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But the Prophecies of the Dragon are not complete. Every Foretelling about Rand is a prophecy, unless Foretelling is different than prophecy? But if it is, where do the Prophecies come from? (This is intended to be a rhetorical question.) If Gitara and Elaida could have Foretellings about him, what about Aes Sedai/damane in Seanchan?

My question about Seanchan comes from this: do the wetlands prophecies mention the Wolf-king?

 

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Prophecy are indeed Foretellings. The Prophecies listed in the Karetheon Cycle were spoken by Deindre, an Aes Sedai living during the final days of the Age of Legends--it was also her Foretellings that led to the creation of the Eye of the World and the Stone of Tear.

 

That being said whatever Foretellings Seanchan channelers have had about Tarmon Gai'don and the Dragon nonwithstanding, THIS foretelling is false.

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My question about Seanchan comes from this: do the wetlands prophecies mention the Wolf-king?
That I am aware of, the first usage of the term "wolf king" is by Faile to Perrin in TSR. When Tylee makes mention of the Wolf King, she mentions carrying the hammer in the same breath. Also in TSR (and as I have already mentioned), Verin asks Perrin when he will give up the axe for the hammer. So the Prophecies in the Wetlands almost certainly make mention of the Wolf King - we have good reason to believe they do and not reason to believe they don't.
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