Taim = Demandred

[wvlr]

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

Why would he be surprised of fans making a connection between the two if he had originally intended the connection to be there?

Answer = He never intended it, therefore was surprised.

 

Good question Cillian.  Do you have a date for that quote in relationship to the book releases?

 

Baring that, my only guess is that he might have been playing coy or trying to cover up that he was making changes.

[DemandredFO]

I'm not defending the Taimadred theory.  I'm just saying that every time Lews Therin is around Taim he flips his lid.  We hear that sometimes he has similar reactions around other channelers but Taim is the only one we have a repeated POV for.  I view this as significant.  I happen to favour the Taim=Be'lal theory since reading that balefire comment from RJ.  Why say the thing about Balefire if RJ never intended to use it.  Combined with Lews Therin going off around Taim I believe it likely Taim is Be'lal.

Let's look at Forsaken checkouts

Aginor and Balthamel:  checked out immediately but were brought back

Asmo:  Not around terribly long but split the Shaido from the Aiel

Rahvin:  again, not around long but did considerably damage a strong nation

Lanfear:  arguably did more for Rand but was still brought back

Be'lal:  only one to die early after doing nothing and have the possibility to be brought back

I ignored Ishamael because he's a special case

Aginor, Balthamel and Lanfear could all be brought back and were.  Rahvin and Asmo couldn't; Rahvin was balefired into the Aol and Asmo was a confirmed traitor and was probaby to strongly balefired anyway.

That's my educated guess

[slayerA]

Taim was out being a false dragon and running round before the Forsaken are released. So Taim cannot, will not, and never was or will be Demandred or any other forsaken.

[Majsju]

I still disagree though.  This would have just been another of the assorted clues that he dropped on us over the previous books.    It was not intended to be a sure thing.    Just like the Hook nose, LT going off the deep end, the "so called" remarks.

 

Even if it just had been a small clue, there is no way RJ would be so clumpsy that he adds something that contradicts the clue immidiatly afterwards.

And not only RJ, but also Harriet would have completely missed this.

 

Sorry but you have nothing with these examples.    Nothing at all.   

 

These were some of the main reasons I never believed in taimandred. And RJ gave me right. 'nuff said.

 

Rand thought Taim was older than his late twenties when he first meets him and it is only RJs later comments that peg him at Late twenties.    Nothing in the books.   

 

Then above and beyond that - What male channelers does Rand or anyone have to compare him with?    The main channelers that we have seen (Asedi) are "distorted" by the Oath Rod.  Without it they look enormously different, Not just a little bit but Suane and Leane were unrecognizable and much younger.

 

Mask of Mirrors is not argument either.    Look at how much time Lanfear spent around Rand wearing assorted disguises.    Some hugely different!    If Lanfear can do it, I would think that Demandred could.  Lanfear did a more than a little "touching" of Rand during many of these occasions.

 

Especially since Rands visits to Taim are always cut short because he has LT ranting in his head every time the come together. 

 

Lanfear was always in control of the situation. Usually more or less relaxed settings.

Taim and Rand met on the battlefield, and there was no way for taim to know from the beginning exactly what Rand would ask of him. For all he knew Rand could have demanded that he always be around, with increasing risk of getting his cover blown.

And look at Meesana, Alvhiarin sees through her disguise at one point even though Meesana is sitting still.

 

As for Siuan and Leane, they are completely irrelevant here, so I can't see why you bring them up.

 

The Shadow has two different Forsaken in the WT - Messana AND Himelia AND quite a few Black Adja.    Yes the Tower is Split but effectively the Shadow HAS allocated TWO of the (as you so kindly pointed out) scarce Forsaken resources to double cover the WT.    Plus they have the BACK-up of the Black Adja!!!      Gee Channeling resources MUST be important!    Very important!    Especially to use a completely unrecognizable Male Channeling / Changed body Forsaken with a group that already had Messana and many BAs in place.

 

Now lets think - when did Himalia join the WT ® -  probably not that different a time than Osan'ga/Dashiva went to the BT.

 

The two towers are completely different. Mesaana has her hands full just trying to control Elaida, having her go to the rebel camp on a regular basis to try to control Egwene as well...Mesaanas outburst in KOD should make you able to figure out the plan that makes each tower requireing a forsaken.

 

Still, why waste the resources?    Well Body for Body, an Ash'aman is much more valuable than an AS.    Sure Women can link - that increases the power but reduces the number.    So this establishes that an organization of Male channelers WOULD be among the most important assets to secure.  Maybe more important that the WT, which was allocated 2+ Forsaken.

 

On top of that - If Taim/Demandred was discovered wouldn't the DO want to have at least 1 back-up for Taim in this extreemly important group?    The plan may have been for Dashiva to make himself promenant but not too promenent so that he could take over if Taim was discovered.

 

No one could have guessed that Rand would pick him for one of the bodyguards or that Logain would be Healed and Join the group.

 

Well, first of all you are dead wrong with the claim that an asha'man would be more im portant than an Aes Sedai, but that's another story.

 

Second, there is no way for the shadow to initially even dream of how many male channelers that will actually show up. And Osan'gar joins quite early in the gathering. There is also no way for the shadow to know that rand will pretty much completely hand Taim control over the BT.

Poor resource managment aside, we have also seen that the forsaken does not exactly work well together. Putting two of them at the exact same place...No way.

 

Yes - we have seen how well the Forsaken have support each other - even when they were supposid allies.    Especially if Messana did not clear the operation with Demandred first.    I have seen no signs that she did.    Maybe Demandread felt that she was taking Rand away from him?    Wasn't there a quote somewhere that Demandred was supposit to "watch" Rand?        Who knows all the whyfors of the Forsaken.

 

Having Demandred waltz in and blow Mesaanas plan to pieces seems like a highway to end their alliance. yet, we see them afterwards being as close as ever.

Also, Mesaana would not be able to handle Rand all by herself, she would need to call in some help. And who would she turn to first? Hmmm, perhaps the one of her two allies that safely can go awol for a while. No way demandred with his extreme hatred for LTT/Rand would pass on an opportunity to be part of capturing him.

 

I'm not defending the Taimadred theory.  I'm just saying that every time Lews Therin is around Taim he flips his lid.  We hear that sometimes he has similar reactions around other channelers but Taim is the only one we have a repeated POV for.

 

Taim was the first male channeler he ever met (except for the forsaken). It is quite normal Taim would spark the strongest reaction.

[wvlr]

Majsju

 

Even if it just had been a small clue, there is no way RJ would be so clumpsy that he adds something that contradicts the clue immidiatly afterwards.

And not only RJ, but also Harriet would have completely missed this.

 

I can not agree with this.    Majsju were you around on the old DM board right after WH came out?    Many people were initially fooled by that scene.    They thought that it was more proof that T=D.    It took MONTHS of descussion on the board to get many of the people to even SEE the contridiction.    So it was a very tricky scene and issue.  The contridiction could have easily been overlooked by RJ and Harriet.    I am near certian that it was.

 

 

 

 

Lanfear was always in control of the situation. Usually more or less relaxed settings.

Taim and Rand met on the battlefield, and there was no way for taim to know from the beginning exactly what Rand would ask of him. For all he knew Rand could have demanded that he always be around, with increasing risk of getting his cover blown.

And look at Meesana, Alvhiarin sees through her disguise at one point even though Meesana is sitting still.

 

This is empty floss again.  Messana did MoM on her CLOTHES because she did not want Alvarin to see what Adja she was.    Alverin defeated the MoM by shaking the clothes around while she pleaded and begged with Messana.

It is well known that MoM works best when the changes made are as small as possible.  Snall as possible inherently WOULD NOT INCLUDE clothes.  Messana was either sloppy or just did not care that much about hiding her Adja.

 

 

 

 

 

As for Siuan and Leane, they are completely irrelevant here, so I can't see why you bring them up.

 

They are an example that channelers look much younger than non-channelers.  Applied to Demandred together with a very minimual MoM and you have him looking the age Rand gave.

 

Have we ever met anyone that had actually seen Taim when he was the False Dragon?    I don't think so.  The only ones that we know of are the two prople he used Compulsion on and the Black Adja that released him.  Neither of those parties would be likely to give him away.

 

 

 

 

 

The two towers are completely different. Mesaana has her hands full just trying to control Elaida, having her go to the rebel camp on a regular basis to try to control Egwene as well...Mesaanas outburst in KOD should make you able to figure out the plan that makes each tower requireing a forsaken.

 

I disagree.  Messana had Alvarin do almost all the work.    Hemilia had Demina do almost all the work at the Little Tower.    One Forsaken could have controlled them both.  The only exception is Hemilia's head messages for Egwene that never really worked.   

 

 

 

 

Second, there is no way for the shadow to initially even dream of how many male channelers that will actually show up. And Osan'gar joins quite early in the gathering. There is also no way for the shadow to know that rand will pretty much completely hand Taim control over the BT.

 

Quite right - Shadow's initial plan may have been just to get a Forsaken (D) in close to Rand.    When Rand put Taim in charge of the BT and left it entirely in his hands and so many people showed up (this all occured near the first day or AT MOST w/i the first few weeks)  THEN  Dashiva became available and was sent  as back-up to this extreemly important asset.

The timing all works out very well.

 

 

 

 

 

Having Demandred waltz in and blow Mesaanas plan to pieces seems like a highway to end their alliance. yet, we see them afterwards being as close as ever. 

 

We never saw them discuss it either way - we were not privlege to that encounter either before or after the Wells.    But we do know that if it did create a rif Demandred had an easy out - DOs orders - "let the Lord of Chaos Rule"    The DO was quite happy with Demandred at the end of LoC.

 

[elmis]

Do we even know what "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" means?

[Majsju]

I can not agree with this.    Majsju were you around on the old DM board right after WH came out?    Many people were initially fooled by that scene.    They thought that it was more proof that T=D.    It took MONTHS of descussion on the board to get many of the people to even SEE the contridiction.    So it was a very tricky scene and issue.  The contridiction could have easily been overlooked by RJ and Harriet.    I am near certian that it was.

 

You know, there is quite a difference between RJ and the fanbase. Come on, we are talking about the fans where a lot of people could not figure out the Gasp-moment in KOD.

 

This is empty floss again.  Messana did MoM on her CLOTHES because she did not want Alvarin to see what Adja she was.    Alverin defeated the MoM by shaking the clothes around while she pleaded and begged with Messana.

It is well known that MoM works best when the changes made are as small as possible.  Snall as possible inherently WOULD NOT INCLUDE clothes.  Messana was either sloppy or just did not care that much about hiding her Adja.

 

And Demandred would be able to keep a perfect MoM for several months? Every time he weaves it he must make it exactly the same way. As well as changing his voice, so he sounds the exact same, including learning the accent of Saldea perfectly. And never once make a slip.

 

They are an example that channelers look much younger than non-channelers.  Applied to Demandred together with a very minimual MoM and you have him looking the age Rand gave.

 

Have we ever met anyone that had actually seen Taim when he was the False Dragon?    I don't think so.  The only ones that we know of are the two prople he used Compulsion on and the Black Adja that released him.  Neither of those parties would be likely to give him away.

 

Siuan and Leane were bound by the Oath Rod, which gives the ageless look. Changing appearances after having been released from the oaths is something completely different than just looking younger.

 

In Demandreds case, he would have to change quite a bit more than just his age in order for Rand not to recognise him.

 

I disagree.  Messana had Alvarin do almost all the work.    Hemilia had Demina do almost all the work at the Little Tower.    One Forsaken could have controlled them both.  The only exception is Hemilia's head messages for Egwene that never really worked.   

 

Mesaana has an established identity in the WT. For someone who has reason to keep a low profile, disappearing on a regular basis is a very stupid idea.

Mesaana keeps close tabs on Alviarins doings, something she could not do if she had to disappear for a few hours almost every day.

In the rebel camp, Halima does a bit more than just screwing with Egwenes head. She is giving Delana orders, the same way Mesaana is giving Alviarin orders.

 

Quite right - Shadow's initial plan may have been just to get a Forsaken (D) in close to Rand.    When Rand put Taim in charge of the BT and left it entirely in his hands and so many people showed up (this all occured near the first day or AT MOST w/i the first few weeks)  THEN  Dashiva became available and was sent  as back-up to this extreemly important asset.

The timing all works out very well.

 

Because the shadow has so little faith in Demandred, one of few remainign forsaken who has not yet royally screwed up, that they decided to send in the one forsaken who has been one failure after another as a backup...

 

We never saw them discuss it either way - we were not privlege to that encounter either before or after the Wells.    But we do know that if it did create a rif Demandred had an easy out - DOs orders - "let the Lord of Chaos Rule"    The DO was quite happy with Demandred at the end of LoC.

 

We do know that Demandred tells Mesaana about the DOs orders in LOC.

We do know that Demandred and Mesaana seems to be just as allied as before at the gathering in KOD.

We know why Taim went looking for Rand in LOC.

 

We know a lot of things from the  books, as well as from RJs own words that speaks against Taimandred. We have a grand sum of Nothing implying RJ ever planned otherwise.

[wvlr]

Thanks a lot for this quote Cillian!

 

It cost me several hours of sleep last night.

 

No matter how I look at it - this Quote just makes no sense!

 

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

 

There is just no way to make any sense out of that quote.

 

 

OK - lets assume that Taim was never intended to be Demandred.    Try to get that thought in your head and then read the quote.    The quote still does not make any sense!

 

 

Even if Taim had always been intended to be a Red Herring - That quote makes no sense - because RJ would know that he was creating a red herring and so he could not possible be surprised.

 

Even if Taim was a new Dreadlord, RJ knew that he gave him the Hook Nose, Rand's LT fits, the "So Called" AS comments,  the "So Called Ariel comments   ++++++  RJ knew that he was laying a false trail so he could not possible be surprised.

 

Even if Taim jumped out of a Stasis box, RJ knew that he gave him the Hook Nose, Rand's LT fits, the "So Called" AS comments,  the "So Called Ariel comments   ++++++  RJ knew that he was laying a false trail so he could not possibly be surprised.

 

Even if Taim was Be'lal resurected, RJ knew that he gave him the Hook Nose, Rand's LT fits, the "So Called" AS comments,  the "So Called Ariel comments   ++++++  RJ knew that he was laying a false trail so he could not possibly be surprised.

 

Even if Taim was the Man on the Moon made flesh, RJ knew that he gave him the Hook Nose, Rand's LT fits, the "So Called" AS comments,  the "So Called" Ariel comments   ++++++  RJ knew that he was laying a false trail so he could not possibly be surprised.

 

 

All these Taim characteristics and clues were added for a reason - for RJ to be surprised by the obvious fruit of those clues is just not comprehensable.

 

 

I can believe that RJ made a mistake or even a few mistakes.    But for him to make an entire character that is a mistake does not compute.

[Majsju]

All these Taim characteristics and clues were added for a reason - for RJ to be surprised by the obvious fruit of those clues is just not comprehensable.

 

 

I can believe that RJ made a mistake or even a few mistakes.    But for him to make an entire character that is a mistake does not compute.

 

So basically, to make your theory work you accuse RJ of being a liar.

[aevogt]

"Have we ever met anyone that had actually seen Taim when he was the False Dragon?    I don't think so.   The only ones that we know of are the two prople he used Compulsion on and the Black Adja that released him.   Neither of those parties would be likely to give him away."

 

Bashere saw him.  I can't remember if he outright recognized him at the beginning of LoC or not.  Taim just said he had shaved his beard, nothing else.  Almost as if he was explaining a question he feared to be asked.  Based on that, it's possible he was "someone" in disguise, but I doubt it.

 

I don't believe The Creator would lie to us. 

Intentionally mislead or disdirect us - Yes

Allow us to mislead ourselves - Yes

 

But he'd never outright lie.  He doesn't have to. 

 

I think the big issue vis a vis Taimandred is Lews Therin going mad with rage when Rand is in the presence of Taim but saying Demandred, not Taim.  I'll admit it, it fooled me until WH.

 

Intentionally misleading.

 

As for Bel'al.  It has been said too many times that

1. The DO can capture a BF'd soul if he has time.

2. Moarine could only burn a few seconds out of the pattern. Her words.

3. Rand blasted Rhavin a lot farther back than Moraine possibly could have, since he used every scrap of the Power he could (Rhavin must have been burned back at least a few hours if not days) and was so much stronger than Moraine even with her angreal and the DO couldn't get Rhavin with that amount of time.

4. There's no possible way the DO could have gotten Bel'al in a few seconds if he couldn't get Rhavin in the hours or days he was burned back.

 

Be'lal is not Taim transmigrated.

 

 

 

 

 

[wvlr]

You know, there is quite a difference between RJ and the fanbase. Come on, we are talking about the fans where a lot of people could not figure out the Gasp-moment in KOD.

 

What moment?    Not sure what you mean here?      Please elaborate!     I think that I missed that discussion.

 

I conceed that a lot of those involved in the discussions after WH came out were indeed not all that well versed on the series.    But many were and I will not write off their parts in the discussions as being as "insignificant" as you do.   I feel that there was more than enough question raised by those discussions to warrent my opinion on the subject.

 

 

 

And Demandred would be able to keep a perfect MoM for several months? Every time he weaves it he must make it exactly the same way. As well as changing his voice, so he sounds the exact same, including learning the accent of Saldea perfectly. And never once make a slip.

   

 

For the most part - sure!    At least he never slipped with Rand on the few times they had together.    Not that Rand EVER spent all that much time with him  -  and you know he did not.

 

As far as slips he might have made when Rand was NOT around  -   Well for those there is always the Traitor Tree.     Who knows how many heads made the tree because of Demandred's screw ups.

 

 

 

In Demandreds case, he would have to change quite a bit more than just his age in order for Rand not to recognise him.

 

Well from LTs reaction - he might not have changed it quite enough - Rand might not be conciously recognizing him, but he is definitly sub-conciously recognizing him.

 

COME ON - You have been on the web and seen all the advertisements that show a before and after shot of the same face.    One looks like a 60 year old hag while the other looks like a 25 year old hottie.   Same picture with just a few adjustments added in.    Now think about MoM doing the same thing but without all the Bondo.   And since Demandred was a male channeler that had slowed there really would not have had to be that many changes, except for the ones to keep Rand from recognizing him.    Which as I said earlier - was not all that successful.

 

 

 

Because the shadow has so little faith in Demandred, one of few remainign forsaken who has not yet royally screwed up, that they decided to send in the one forsaken who has been one failure after another as a backup...

 

For an asset that importand - definitely!     Also, at that point Dashiva only had ONE strike against him - Much better than Ishy at that point.    Also Dashiva had the additional advantage that he had a new body and so if Rand ever broke through Demandred's MoM, Dashiva would be a perfect choice because he needed no such aid.

 

 

We do know that Demandred and Mesaana seems to be just as allied as before at the gathering in KOD.

 

There is a long time between LoC and KoD, any issues that they needed to work out were probably done so within a couple months.    Not that Messana has much choice - her continued association with Demandred is her best bet.    Or do you think that Messana would do better teamed up with Hemilia, Grendal, Mordin, Morgy, Dashiva, Semi, Lanfear.

 

If Demandred did bust Rand out - it had to be because she had not coordinated the whole thing with him.    More likely Messana was appoligizing to Demandred for over-steping HER side of their arrangment.

[Tyrell]

 

4. There's no possible way the DO could have gotten Bel'al in a few seconds if he couldn't get Rhavin in the hours or days he was burned back.

 

 

I think you misunderstand Balefire. The idea is that a small ammount of balefire makes it easier not harder for the DO to grab a soul. By burning Rahvin back hours/days Rand game the DO less not more time to grab his soul. Atleast thats the understanding of Balefire I get from that sentence, otherwise it makes little sense.

 

Baasically it seems that after death a soul hangs around for X ammount of time, available to the Dark One before it gets put into the afterlife / spun into the wheel / idunno whatever, made unavailable to the Dark One anyways. Then you balefire someone back Y ammount of time and they die before the present. Now for the Dark One to be able to grab their soul it still needs to be hanging around in the present. So if a soul hangs around for 5 seconds and you Balefire them back 1 second then the Dark One still has 4 seconds of "grab time" to notice they died and snag that soul of theirs.

[wvlr]

So basically, to make your theory work you accuse RJ of being a liar.

 

Did you read my post?   

 

I thought I was clear but maybe not.

 

Here it is again.      Even if you say that Taim IS NOT Demandred - that quote just does not make sense to me.

 

That does NOT MEAN that to make my theory work RJ is a liar.    Toss my theory completely out the window and the quote still does not make sense.   

 

 

My theory does not have anything to do with it - that quote does not make any sense.

[Majsju]

What moment?    Not sure what you mean here?      Please elaborate!     I think that I missed that discussion.

 

I conceed that a lot of those involved in the discussions after WH came out were indeed not all that well versed on the series.    But many were and I will not write off their parts in the discussions as being as "insignificant" as you do.   I feel that there was more than enough question raised by those discussions to warrent my opinion on the subject.

 

RJs statements regarding Taim and Demandred proves your theory wrong. Whatever some people discussed a few years ago is irrelevant.

 

It's like saying that just because quite a few people discussed the possibility of Cain=Olver, RJ has left a loophole for that to be true despite him saying flat out it is not.

 

For the most part - sure!    At least he never slipped with Rand on the few times they had together.    Not that Rand EVER spent all that much time with him  -  and you know he did not.

 

As far as slips he might have made when Rand was NOT around  -   Well for those there is always the Traitor Tree.     Who knows how many heads made the tree because of Demandred's screw ups.

 

And he never slipped with Elayne, Logain, a couple of hundred Soldiers and Dedicated he has been, if not training himself, at least overseeing their training...

Hmmm, maybe there is nothing for him to make slips with...

 

Well from LTs reaction - he might not have changed it quite enough - Rand might not be conciously recognizing him, but he is definitly sub-conciously recognizing him.

 

COME ON - You have been on the web and seen all the advertisements that show a before and after shot of the same face.    One looks like a 60 year old hag while the other looks like a 25 year old hottie.   Same picture with just a few adjustments added in.    Now think about MoM doing the same thing but without all the Bondo.   And since Demandred was a male channeler that had slowed there really would not have had to be that many changes, except for the ones to keep Rand from recognizing him.    Which as I said earlier - was not all that successful.

 

Ah yes, this particular memory happens to be one that does not quite makes it through from LTT to Rand. Disregard Rands comments that he knows the faces of all the forsaken, disregard how he immidiatly recognises Semirhage in KOD.

If Demandred used MoM in order for Rand to not recognise him, he would have to change quite a bit.

And there is still the matter of the voice.

 

For an asset that importand - definitely!     Also, at that point Dashiva only had ONE strike against him - Much better than Ishy at that point.    Also Dashiva had the additional advantage that he had a new body and so if Rand ever broke through Demandred's MoM, Dashiva would be a perfect choice because he needed no such aid.

 

If it was so important to have two forsaken at the BT, how come noone was sent to replace Osan'gar when Rand scooped him up? The need could not have changed in just a couple of weeks.

 

There is a long time between LoC and KoD, any issues that they needed to work out were probably done so within a couple months.    Not that Messana has much choice - her continued association with Demandred is her best bet.    Or do you think that Messana would do better teamed up with Hemilia, Grendal, Mordin, Morgy, Dashiva, Semi, Lanfear.

 

If Demandred did bust Rand out - it had to be because she had not coordinated the whole thing with him.    More likely Messana was appoligizing to Demandred for over-steping HER side of their arrangment.

 

Ah yes, Mesaana really seems like the forgiving kind who would put being betrayed by an ally behind her.

[Majsju]

Did you read my post?   

 

I thought I was clear but maybe not.

 

Here it is again.      Even if you say that Taim IS NOT Demandred - that quote just does not make sense to me.

 

That does NOT MEAN that to make my theory work RJ is a liar.    Toss my theory completely out the window and the quote still does not make sense.   

 

 

My theory does not have anything to do with it - that quote does not make any sense.

 

It does not make sense to you because it contradicts your theory.

 

RJ never intended Taim to be a red herring for Demandred.

He underestimated certain fans eagerness to jump at every little detail and start spinning theories around them. Possibly because he did not pay as much attention to the internet forums at this time.

Eventually he notices that some people thinks Taim = Demandred, and is quite amused. He drags out the revelation for a while because he enjoys a good chuckle.

 

Very simple.

[wvlr]

No I can not agree.    He put all the clues in the book.    They were not put in by some book changing Fairy.    They were put in by RJ.    When the clues that he put in create proment logical associations, he of all people should be aware of the possibilities.    Whether they were a Red Herring or whether they were not.    Suprise for the author in this case should not be an issue.

 

 

I can't wait for MoL to come out to see if somehow that might resolve the conflict.

 

I can't imagine how, but I can hope.

[Guest cw]

"Have we ever met anyone that had actually seen Taim when he was the False Dragon?    I don't think so.   The only ones that we know of are the two prople he used Compulsion on and the Black Adja that released him.   Neither of those parties would be likely to give him away."

 

Bashere saw him.  I can't remember if he outright recognized him at the beginning of LoC or not.  Taim just said he had shaved his beard, nothing else.  Almost as if he was explaining a question he feared to be asked.  Based on that, it's possible he was "someone" in disguise, but I doubt it.

 

The Taim who arrived in Caemlyn was the same Taim as was the False Dragon.  There are no ifs, ands or buts about it.  Bashere not only verified his identity, but he had to he almost required physical restraints to prevent him from killing Taim on the spot.  What Taim did to the Saldeans was not common knowledge because Bashere had covered it up.  Taim also showed an awareness of the fact that Bashere had done so.

 

Per RJ, it also wasn't Compulsion that Taim used:

For kolp, Oberonus and NaClH2O, what Taim did to those Saldaeans wasn’t Compulsion. They just don’t have the intelligence left that would be needed for anything too exacting.

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=153

[Guest cw]

As for Bel'al.  It has been said too many times that

1. The DO can capture a BF'd soul if he has time.

2. Moarine could only burn a few seconds out of the pattern. Her words.

3. Rand blasted Rhavin a lot farther back than Moraine possibly could have, since he used every scrap of the Power he could (Rhavin must have been burned back at least a few hours if not days) and was so much stronger than Moraine even with her angreal and the DO couldn't get Rhavin with that amount of time.

4. There's no possible way the DO could have gotten Bel'al in a few seconds if he couldn't get Rhavin in the hours or days he was burned back.

 

Be'lal is not Taim transmigrated.

 

Just because Moiraine's words said a few seconds, that doesn't mean it is true.  She had nothing to base her estimation on.  By now, everyone should understand that an Aes Sedai can say basically whatever she wants provided she knows it isn't a flat out lie.

[Majsju]

I can't wait for MoL to come out to see if somehow that might resolve the conflict.

 

I can't imagine how, but I can hope.

 

What we will see in AMOL is most likely Taim revealed as a third Age DF raised to forsaken-level. As was intended from the beginning.

[Kadere]

Not to mention Demandred and Messana will come forward and we'll learn who they were posing as.

[Majsju]

Mesaana is most likely Danelle.

I still think that Demandred is not posing as anyone, but instead working behind the scenes. Using proxies, as Sammael says Demandred always prefered.

[Guest cw]

I can't wait for MoL to come out to see if somehow that might resolve the conflict.

 

I can't imagine how, but I can hope.

 

What we will see in AMOL is most likely Taim revealed as a third Age DF raised to forsaken-level. As was intended from the beginning.

 

I disagree.  There will be a revelation about Taim alright, I have no issues with that.  It is the content of the revelation that I disagree with.  I have never agreed with Taim being a Darkfriend.  I'm not going to bother rehashing all the arguments why he isn't though as I know from past experience it won't do any good.  I just hope Jordan's notes were complete enough to allow what I have long expected was a planned one time PoV from Taim.

[wvlr]

Mesaana is most likely Danelle.

I still think that Demandred is not posing as anyone, but instead working behind the scenes. Using proxies, as Sammael says Demandred always prefered.

 

 

That does seem to the current situation as it stands NOW.

[Paviel]

"Remember the old saying. Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

Taim is either a Darkfriend or a good actor; I doubt anybody but a Darkfriend would recognize the "old saying". Suroth and Pevara certainly didn't.

[Guest cw]

I already said I'm not about to bother trying to argue with people on it anymore.  It has been done numerous times on other threads.  People want to hate Taim so they aren't going to see anything but an evil bastard.  Even Taim's knowledge of that quote can be explained through very mundane means if you take the time to read about 3rd Age holidays and festivities.  And if you accept that Taim isn't black, the laughter of the Asha'man around him when he says it puts the quote in a whole different context.

 

Snape isn't the only literary figure where facts were deliberately withheld so that people would hate him.  I've found Jordan loved misdirection and we only know half of Taim's story.  The defense has yet to take the stand.