Who do you think are the strongest channelers?

[The Dragon Champion]

Who do you think are the strongest channelers from greatest to least? (Forsaken and those from this age) You can put Forsaken who are dead as well. I'm really just interested in top ten kind of thing, but feel free to rank as many as you want.

 

1. Rand

2. Ishmael

3. Lanfear

4. Alivia

5. Nynaeve

6. Cyndane

7. Demandred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DemandredFO]

We know the strongest; it is Rand, Ishamael, Demandred.  Lanfear and Alivia next; next sure about where Lanfear reborn is in relation to Nyneave.

[Guest leebarr]

Rand is first but i think alivia maybe as strong as a woman can get. with nyn as strong as most of the male forsaken. nyn when fully trained will macth the men

[Feral]

Don't forget Sharina. Probably just under Alivia.

[krelianzg]

Rand, Moridin and Ishamael are at the top, no doubt.

 

Next I'd say Lanfear, Alivia, Demandred, Rahvin, Aginor, Logain, Taim and Sammael.

 

After that, the rest of the Forsaken, plus a few of the light's powerhouses.

 

There's a good FAQ out there that painstakingly dissects where everyone would fall in the series;

 

Part 1;

http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1331&Category=Angreal

 

Part 2;

http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1332&Category=Angreal

 

I don't agree with it 100%, but it's pretty damn close to perfect. 

 

[Luckers]

I doubt Rhavin or Sammael is up there with the rest. Its true that he thinks to himself that he and Sammael would be stronger than Lanfear, but based on the way he thought that and RJ's comments my guess is that that is brevado. It does show that he and Sammael were probably very similar in strength--his begruging inclusion of Sammael in his thoughts about who was stronger than Lanfear suggests this--but where they stand in the overall order is unknown.

 

And to my guess below. Its just a feeling based on Lanfear position, but yeah...

 

Krelianzg has already posted the wotmania listing--and I agree with him, it does get things wrong, to my mind, but it is very helpful as a guide.

 

My only major issue with it is the placement of Alivia and Sharina. To my mind they've given into Forsaken worship--we were told through the first five books how much stronger the forsaken are than even the strongest of modern channelers, it does get distracting.

 

The actual facts about those two are vague. Aes Sedai are discussing the possibility that Sharina might be the strongest a woman can be--which does have some weight to it since we know the Aes Sedai know roughly the types of strength women in the past have reached--its probably one of the few things we can trust their 'beliefs' on given the importance of strength in the sisterhood.

 

Alivia we don't know about... but she's apparently alot stronger than Nynaeve, which to my mind means she's definately getting up there.

 

We dont know, but they definately could one and both be at Lanfears strength--well, Sharina could get there with time in any case.

 

 

[elmis]

What I don't get is why Sharina wasn't a sparker? Throught the books we've learned there are two types of channelers, the ones that will channel no matter what, and the ones that can be learned. Don't think it's printed anywhere, but all the channelers that are sparkers seem to be stronger than the rest. Rand, Taim, Logain, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Suian, Moiraine ect. Now we're introduced to Sharina who is obviously not a sparker (wilder) as she only just now begins to slow, reverse her age.

 

What do you guys make of that?

[Luckers]

They are on average stronger, not always, and it doesn't mean there can't be extremely strong learners.

[slayerA]

Alivia is way stronger than Lansfear. When Rand is cleansing the taint and the forsaken are battling the group, Cyndane say something to fact the this woman is stronger than her now and when she was still Lansfear.

[Tyrell]

Alivia had an Angreal at the time.

[Harmless Bandit]

I do think there is some veracity to the wow factor hanging over the Forsaken. After all, most of them turn out to be stronger than channellers of this age.

The Forsaken are proud individuals, with immense egos, so I think how strong they are matters to them (except Ishy/Moridin perhaps).

 

What I'm getting at is, there seems to be a reason why Moghedien seems to be ranked at the bottom; it can't just be their egos talking. Nynaeve seems to be somewhat stronger than Moghedien. And she is the strongest Aes Sedai (Sharina aside).

Nynaeve also is much stronger than the other two Wonder Girls, who are the next strongest Aes Sedai.

 

I have no proof, but it seems logical to me that Semirhage and Mesaana (sp) are substantially stronger than Moghedien. Graendal is in turn stronger than Semi and Mes (I get this from the fact that Graendal comments that even in the AoL women stronger than her were rare). The question is how much stronger is she? R.J. didn't clarify things there; I mean Demandred, Bel'al, Logain, Taim, Osan'gar (sp) are all described as almost as strong as Rand/LTT, and it makes me wonder whether they are all the same strength or there are some degrees.

 

Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, and we know Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear. The question again is how much stronger.

 

 

 

The actual facts about those two are vague. Aes Sedai are discussing the possibility that Sharina might be the strongest a woman can be--which does have some weight to it since we know the Aes Sedai know roughly the types of strength women in the past have reached--its probably one of the few things we can trust their 'beliefs' on given the importance of strength in the sisterhood.

 

Alivia we don't know about... but she's apparently alot stronger than Nynaeve, which to my mind means she's definately getting up there.

 

We dont know, but they definately could one and both be at Lanfears strength--well, Sharina could get there with time in any case.

 

 

From what I've seen strength in the Power has been slowly going downhill since the AoL. I find it interesting that, given the importance they attach to that strength, Aes Sedai don't mention anywhere (to my limited knowledge) which Sister was the strongest, kinda like who is the best swordman of all time. Not that it's that important, but it's what you would expect from them, and it's not like it could be a difficult thing to do; the Wonder Girls are the strongest Aes Sedai in a thousand years, and this to me suggests that Aes Sedai keep some tabs about that. The fact that they are theorizing about Sharina's strength actually tells me that they don't really know how strong a woman can get, they may have an idea, but it's just that. And they have been wrong before.

 

It's their word against Lanfear's. Sure she has a huge ego, but there seemed to be more than that about her comment that it was impossible for a woman to be stronger than her. I don't think at that time she was thinking as a Forsaken, rather as a researcher, and she is from the AoL, which seems to be littered with channellers of above average strength, which in my mind would increase the likelihood of finding channellers of exceptional strength (kinda like if you want to find the tallest men in Randland you would be stupid not to search among the Aiel).

 

I don't know where Rahvin and Sammael rank, but I would say they are stronger than Nynaeve, considering Rahvin was able to push away (and easily, it seemed), the fire Nynaeve had thrown around him (though him being there in the flesh might have played arole in that; I don't know).

 

1.Rand/LTT, Ishamael/Moridin

1.5 Demandred

2.Logain, Taim, Bel'al, Osan'gar

3.Lanfear

4.Alivia, Sharina

5.Cyndane, Sammael, Rahvin

6.Graendal

7.Mesaana, Semirhage, Nynaeve

8.Asmodean, Moghedien

9.Egwene, Elayne

10.Cadsuane

11.Moiraine, Siuan

 

Of course I forgot quite a few people there, and left out a few others on purpose.

Level 1.5 shouldn't exist, but the way Demandred has been described, LTT does not seem to be a whole level above him.

It's possible Graendal is stronger than Sammael and Rahvin, but I find it unlikely. I put the two of them with Cyndane, though I think she is stronger than them.

And I put Nynaeve with Semi and Mes though I think they are a bit stronger.

 

All this is specualtion anyway ;D

Except for #1, that is. 

[aevogt]

Everyone always leaves out poor Talaan.  She's a teenager and already as strong as Nynaeve. TPoD Chapter 2

[krelianzg]

Asmodean is definitely stronger than the female Forsaken other than Lanfear/Cyndane. Being weak for a male Forsaken doesn't mean you're actually weak by any stretch of the imagination....

[Darian]

Alivia is way stronger than Lansfear. When Rand is cleansing the taint and the forsaken are battling the group, Cyndane say something to fact the this woman is stronger than her now and when she was still Lansfear.

lanfear was probably also weakened...

[Guest cw]

Cyndane correctly deduced that Alivia was using an angreal because Alvia appeared almost as strong as Lanfear was prior to her time with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.  We know that, as Cyndane, she is weaker than she was as Lanfear from Graendal and also one of the 'gars I think it was.

[Tyrell]

Cyndane correctly deduced that Alivia was using an angreal because Alvia appeared almost as strong as Lanfear was prior to her time with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.  We know that, as Cyndane, she is weaker than she was as Lanfear from Graendal and also one of the 'gars I think it was.

 

Actually what she thought was [paraphrase]That girl was stronger than her before she'd been held by the 'finn and she'd been as strong as it was possible to be! she must have an Angreal[/paraphrase]

[Harmless Bandit]

 

Everyone always leaves out poor Talaan.  She's a teenager and already as strong as Nynaeve. TPoD Chapter 2

 

I think it is explained somewhere that she is older than she looks, probably 19 or something, and since she has been channelling for a few years chances are she has already attained her full strength or near it. And actually she is very close to Nynaeve, but not exactly her strength (these small things seem to matter).

 

Cyndane correctly deduced that Alivia was using an angreal because Alvia appeared almost as strong as Lanfear was prior to her time with the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.  We know that, as Cyndane, she is weaker than she was as Lanfear from Graendal and also one of the 'gars I think it was.

 

Actually what she thought was [paraphrase]That girl was stronger than her before she'd been held by the 'finn and she'd been as strong as it was possible to be! she must have an Angreal[/paraphrase]

 

Tyrell has the right of it here; Cyndane thinks that it was impossible for a woman to be stronger than Lanfear.

 

Asmodean is definitely stronger than the female Forsaken other than Lanfear/Cyndane. Being weak for a male Forsaken doesn't mean you're actually weak by any stretch of the imagination....

 

Could be right... though I don't know, Graendal could be stronger or they could be the same strength.

 

[Majsju]

Asmodean is definitely stronger than the female Forsaken other than Lanfear/Cyndane. Being weak for a male Forsaken doesn't mean you're actually weak by any stretch of the imagination....

 

Since the forsaken were all the Aes Sedai who joined the Shadow, not all of them could have been freakishly strong. And the 13 we are familiar with were the top ranked at the time of the strike at SG. However, the ranks had very little to do with strength in the OP. As RJ said about Asmo, he was quite skilled as a governor, and the Shadow needed those as well.

[Moghedian]

Rand, Ishmael, Demandred, Lanfear,  Alivia, Cyndane, Nynaeve

 

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

Asmodean is definitely stronger than the female Forsaken other than Lanfear/Cyndane. Being weak for a male Forsaken doesn't mean you're actually weak by any stretch of the imagination....

 

Since the forsaken were all the Aes Sedai who joined the Shadow, not all of them could have been freakishly strong. And the 13 we are familiar with were the top ranked at the time of the strike at SG. However, the ranks had very little to do with strength in the OP. As RJ said about Asmo, he was quite skilled as a governor, and the Shadow needed those as well.

 

 

I can buy that, but doesn't it say somewhere that Ishamael&Co were the most powerful among the Forsaken? That to me sounds like a specific reference to the Power.

 

Moreover, in their interactions you can see that their strength in the Power comes into play.

[Luckers]

I do think there is some veracity to the wow factor hanging over the Forsaken. After all, most of them turn out to be stronger than channellers of this age.

 

Have they, though? Keep in mind that we are dealing with a group that represents the height of channeling strength for an entire worlds gene pool. Of course they are stronger than the majority of Third Agers, but that is not to say that there arn't Third Agers out there that stand just as high--indeed, we know that there are, we've met ten of them. Rand, Logain, Taim, Nynaeve, Alivia, Sharina, Talaan, Someryn, Viendre and Tamela. And thats just in the limited scope of those channelers we have strength judgements for--there are tens of thousands of channelers out there, many of whom must stand as high.

 

This is part of what i mean by the wow factor. We came to know the Forsaken through the mythos that has built over three thousand years, and first encountered them in opposition to the Aes Sedai, whose range of strength is absurdly stunted by their own recruitment practices. It simply isn't a valid perception, and its led to this skewing in which any Third Agers get relegated to lesser strengths.

 

Don't get me wrong, there is room for Alivia and Sharina to be weaker than Lanfear (though not by much). But is neither foregone, nor even more likely, and thats what i think is getting influenced by the bias.

 

What I'm getting at is, there seems to be a reason why Moghedien seems to be ranked at the bottom; it can't just be their egos talking.

 

But there isn't--and keep in mind that there is no evidence at all that Moghedian IS actually the weakest of the Forsaken. The only comments about it are that Lanfear is stronger then her, which is a bit self-evident, and that she conciders herself to be as strong as, if not stronger than Rhavin. In truth we've never seen her act subserviant to any of the Forsaken except Lanfear--indeed, she shows no subserviance at all to Graendal and thats AFTER her soul gets trapped. She could well be stronger than Semirhage or Mesanna--even Graendal never stated that she was stronger than Moghedian.

 

Her natural timidity is an obvious part of why we all are inclined to believe Moghedian is weaker than ther others, but I've no doubt that another part is the simple fact that Nynaeve is as strong as her, if not stronger, and therefore she must be the weakest--and that is pure unsubstantiated 'wow'.

 

Nynaeve seems to be somewhat stronger than Moghedien. And she is the strongest Aes Sedai (Sharina aside).

Nynaeve also is much stronger than the other two Wonder Girls, who are the next strongest Aes Sedai

 

And the Aes Sedai represent (at best) less than 5% of female channelers. If, as RJ states, 1% of the Third Ager population can channel (ergo 0.5% of the total population are female channelers) and 68.2% are strong enough to gain the shawl, there should be thousands more Aes Sedai even with their exacting standards--and thats just in Randland.

 

The reality is that Aes Sedai recruitment standards are shocking. Relying on the hardiness of girls between the age of 14 and 20 in a medieval level world to leave home and seek out the training of women who most people fear or hate is simply absurd. Ignoring the fact that most women, even those who were sparking, would likely never pause to concider that they might be able to channel--especially during that age range--the amount amongst those that would actually venture out before the age of 20 to do something about it....

 

As has been shown. A thousand gathered a month. That beyond all else shows how little the range of Aes Sedai can be trusted as an accurate judge.

 

I have no proof, but it seems logical to me that Semirhage and Mesaana (sp) are substantially stronger than Moghedien.

 

Thats just the issue im raising though... why? We've never seen her act subserviant to them. We've never heard them compared. Why is everyone so ready to believe this?

 

Graendal is in turn stronger than Semi and Mes (I get this from the fact that Graendal comments that even in the AoL women stronger than her were rare).

 

Not that I nessasarily disagree... but 2 in hundreds of thousands is very rare.

 

From what I've seen strength in the Power has been slowly going downhill since the AoL. I find it interesting that, given the importance they attach to that strength, Aes Sedai don't mention anywhere (to my limited knowledge) which Sister was the strongest, kinda like who is the best swordman of all time. Not that it's that important, but it's what you would expect from them, and it's not like it could be a difficult thing to do; the Wonder Girls are the strongest Aes Sedai in a thousand years, and this to me suggests that Aes Sedai keep some tabs about that. The fact that they are theorizing about Sharina's strength actually tells me that they don't really know how strong a woman can get, they may have an idea, but it's just that. And they have been wrong before.

 

Firstly, the amount of channelers has been going down (from 3% to 1% in Randland, and apparently its less of a decline in Shara and Seanchan). The perception that overall strength is going down is misconception however. As I stated above, the Aes Sedai do not in any way represent a decent subject pool, and the existence of Rand and the others proves it wrong. It's just pathetic recruitment.

 

Secondly, the Aes Sedai do mention a couple of Sister who were extremely strong... Ellisandre, Alinde Dyfell. But beyond that whilst they dont speak names that we witness, they show clear evidence of a knowledge of the strengths of historical Aes Sedai relative to modern ones--which makes sense given the roll over of crossing older and younger Aes Sedai and the hierarchy.

 

Ultimatly though, like you the fact that they are theorizing over Sharina's strength suggest they do indeed keep tabs on it through history. And that Sharina feels like she is somewhere near that strength. There uncertainty stems from a simple reality... it would be hard to be exact without having felt it oneself. Yet nevertheless in knowing what women who lived prior spoke of they felt that Sharina was somewhere near that.

 

And given the sudden inrush recently of stronger and stronger women, why would they pause to suggest it without reason?

 

It's their word against Lanfear's. Sure she has a huge ego, but there seemed to be more than that about her comment that it was impossible for a woman to be stronger than her. I don't think at that time she was thinking as a Forsaken, rather as a researcher, and she is from the AoL, which seems to be littered with channellers of above average strength, which in my mind would increase the likelihood of finding channellers of exceptional strength (kinda like if you want to find the tallest men in Randland you would be stupid not to search among the Aiel).

 

I'm afraid I don't understand this. How is it their word against Lanfears? Both women contemplete an absolute strength, Lanfear ascribes herself to it, and the Aes Sedai suggest Sharina might be it. Where is there a contention? Lanfear has never even met Sharina, and no one at any stage suggested Sharina might be stronger than Lanfear.

 

Unless... are you refering to Cyndane's comment about Alivia? That Alivia was stronger than she had been when she was Lanfear and that that was impossible and therefore Alivia must have an angreal? Well she was correct there... Alivia did have an angreal.

 

Asmodean is definitely stronger than the female Forsaken other than Lanfear/Cyndane. Being weak for a male Forsaken doesn't mean you're actually weak by any stretch of the imagination....

 

Thats a misconception. The male average strength is slightly higher than the female average strength, and the male top strength exceeds the female top strength by a 'level or two'. The female Forsaken that we have strength estimates on are all up to very top of the female range, meaning that they will stand above a lot of men, including men who are very strong themselves.

 

And there is nothing to suggest strength was a pre-requisite for the Chosen. There were thousands of Forsaken to serve as warriors, Shai'tain only raised those that proved themselves in planning, of which there were 39. Asmodean could be comparatively very weak, if not the weakest, of all the Chosen.

 

 

[elmis]

Back to Alivia for a second. When she was fighting Cyndane at the Cleansing she was using Nynaeve's angreal. Cyndane comments on her strenght (with the angreal) being over that of Lanfear, but the comment is phrased like it's just above, not above by miles.

 

So if I have it right, Lanfear is stronger than Alivia, and maybe even Cyndane is stronger then Alivia, but Alivia with an weak angreal is stronger than Lanfear again.

 

My top six list would then be.

 

Rand/LTT - Ishy - Demandred - Lanfear - Cyndane - Alivia

 

That's leaving out the old woman Egwene found, because we really don't have any of the really big guns POV to compare to her yet, just references from Third Age Aes Sedai that she's uber. 

 

Another point is that women > men in channeling, if they're of equal power, as they weave more deftly or whatnot. Don't have the quote right now, but I've read that in a RJ Q/A once. So Lanfear would be more than a match for any one of the three top dogs.

 

 

[aevogt]

Does an angreal have anything to do with what a woman feels when sensing another woman's potential strength?

i.e.

Was Cyndane judging by how much of the Power she felt Alivia holding or by how strong she felt het to be?

 

If she was judging by how much of the power she was holding and knew for a fact that there was a maximum threshold (which, as a former researcher, is not unreasonable), then her assumption was correct that Alivia had an angreal and the amount was not based solely on her latent ability.

 

If Cyndane was sensing her ability to channel, the affinity we hear Egwene prattle on about, then that would mean that the angreal had nothing to do with it and Alivia is much much stronger than Lanfear was. 

 

Here are three angreal and what they do to a channelers ability:  Aviendha and Elayne are as close in the Power as makes no difference.

 

Weakest - Woman Clothed in Her Hair Figurine Angreal - Aviendha can hold twice as much as mormal

 

Middle - The turtle broach allowed Elayne to hold twice as much as Ny could normally.

 

Strongest - The Golden Bracelet and Rings Angreal was the strongest of the three found in Ebou Dar.  We don't have a benchmark except it is the strongest of the three so Elayne would hold more than twice what Nynaeve could hold. 

 

Since Alivia is much stronger than Elayne, that would have to logically follow (unless I missed something) that Cyndane was feeling Alivia's potential, and the angreal had nothing to do with it, and Lanfear was not, in fact, as strong as a woman could be, or else Lanfear's strength (before the Finns) was twice what of Nynaeve, which is unlikely.

 

Personally, I think that all this does in fact point to Alivia being stronger than Lanfear was.

 

Luckers did I miss something?

[Luckers]

Back to Alivia for a second. When she was fighting Cyndane at the Cleansing she was using Nynaeve's angreal. Cyndane comments on her strenght (with the angreal) being over that of Lanfear, but the comment is phrased like it's just above, not above by miles.

 

What do you mean? The exact comment was 'Then the woman struck back at her and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn held her! That was impossible, no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.'

 

I don't see how its phrased to infer only a slight difference. Cyndane's language is sharp, direct and specific. Alivia was stronger than Lanfear had been, and it was a great shock.

 

This is what i mean by the 'wow' factor. We expect Third Agers to be weaker so thats how we read the text.

 

Does an angreal have anything to do with what a woman feels when sensing another woman's potential strength?

i.e.

Was Cyndane judging by how much of the Power she felt Alivia holding or by how strong she felt het to be?

 

If she was judging by how much of the power she was holding and knew for a fact that there was a maximum threshold (which, as a former researcher, is not unreasonable), then her assumption was correct that Alivia had an angreal and the amount was not based solely on her latent ability.

 

The language suggests that Cyndane was judging based on the strength of Alivia's strike. She specifies 'then the woman struck back! She was stronger...' all following the strike, which would include the angreals strength.

 

But beyond that, when a woman draws through an angreal other women sense her full strength as she is holding the power, not her potential. We witness this a few times--Elza shows it with Cadsuane mere pages before this. Feelings someones potential is clearly a fairly ephemeric sensation--consider the way Galina misses Egwene in LoC--and is probably overwhelmed by the semsation of active channeling.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

I do think there is some veracity to the wow factor hanging over the Forsaken. After all, most of them turn out to be stronger than channellers of this age.

 

Have they, though? Keep in mind that we are dealing with a group that represents the height of channeling strength for an entire worlds gene pool.

 

Perhaps I am missing something? Ishamael &Co are the strongest Forsaken, I think, but were the Forsaken (all of them, and specifically Ishamael's group) among the strongest Aes Sedai in the AoL? (I can’t recall). In that case you could rightfully call them representatives of the top channelers in the AoL.

 

 

Of course they are stronger than the majority of Third Agers, but that is not to say that there arn't Third Agers out there that stand just as high--indeed, we know that there are, we've met ten of them. Rand, Logain, Taim, Nynaeve, Alivia, Sharina, Talaan, Someryn, Viendre and Tamela. And thats just in the limited scope of those channelers we have strength judgements for--there are tens of thousands of channelers out there, many of whom must stand as high.

 

Just to be clear, I never disagreed with the part in bold, and I would also like to point out that, in this context, I am referring only to Aes Sedai, not the entire channeling community. I think I failed to clarify that.

 

This is part of what i mean by the wow factor. We came to know the Forsaken through the mythos that has built over three thousand years, and first encountered them in opposition to the Aes Sedai, whose range of strength is absurdly stunted by their own recruitment practices. It simply isn't a valid perception, and its led to this skewing in which any Third Agers get relegated to lesser strengths.

Don't get me wrong, there is room for Alivia and Sharina to be weaker than Lanfear (though not by much). But is neither foregone, nor even more likely, and thats what i think is getting influenced by the bias.

 

A few quotes...

 

"Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anyone in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation." CoT (Secrets).

 

"… Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve." WH (Seafolk and Kin)

 

"She would not mind demonstrating a few of the weaves she had learned from Moghedien for this woman. Including a few they had all agreed were too nasty to do to anyone. Except … She was fairly certain the other woman could overpower her easily, whatever she did." WH (Ideas of Importance) Nynaeve’s thoughts.

 

This is open to interpretation, and here is mine. The first quote certainly makes it clear that there is a gap between Sharina and Nynaeve, possibly a large gap, but not as large or as considerable (IMHO) as the second quote and Nynaeve’s thoughts imply about the gap between Alivia and Nynaeve.

I don’t doubt that Sharina is stronger than the other female FS, even Cyndane, but the description of her strength in relation to Nynaeve’s isn’t just… descriptive enough for me to put her on exactly the same level with Alivia, much less Lanfear. (If I am not wrong there is a part where Egwene thinks about Sharina, and she doesn’t sound that awed).

 

I’ve also always wondered why Egwene never compared Lanfear to Sharina. Granted there was excruciating pain involved with Lanfear, but I don’t think that would have kept her from noticing how strong she was.   

 

By Aes Sedai standards, Nynaeve is extremely strong, and by Third Agers standards she is very strong indeed, yet she thinks Alivia can overpower her easily. That to me indicates a more than large gap between the two. Unless, perhaps, it doesn't take much to overpower someone.

 

I think the ‘wow’ thing is not an exaggeration when it comes to Lanfear. She is not afraid to stand up to Ishamael, as if she is certain she can match whatever he can throw at her (bear in mind that this is a half-insane, unpredictable Ishamael). Either she is strong enough to stand up to him, or she’s just as mad as he is. And it’s just not this, there are other description in the books, plus the Guide.

 

I believe Lanfear is equal to or has an edge over Alivia (I favor the latter), who in turn has an edge over Sharina.

 

What I'm getting at is, there seems to be a reason why Moghedien seems to be ranked at the bottom; it can't just be their egos talking.

 

But there isn't--and keep in mind that there is no evidence at all that Moghedian IS actually the weakest of the Forsaken. The only comments about it are that Lanfear is stronger then her, which is a bit self-evident, and that she conciders herself to be as strong as, if not stronger than Rhavin.

...

Her natural timidity is an obvious part of why we all are inclined to believe Moghedian is weaker than ther others, but I've no doubt that another part is the simple fact that Nynaeve is as strong as her, if not stronger, and therefore she must be the weakest--and that is pure unsubstantiated 'wow'.

 

Could you provide a quote where Moghedien thinks that she is as strong as Rahvin? Thanks.

And while on that, isn’t it possible that it was her ego talking?

 

Now.

 

"Great Lord, you know how many of your enemies I brought down in the War of Power. From the shadows, unseen, or if seen, ignored because I could not possibly be a threat."

ACoS (Mindtrap). From Moghedien.

 

"It is known that a number of the other Forsaken did, in fact, look down on her, yet those who discounted her too far often lived to regret it."

 

That is from the Guide. Throughout the books the Forsaken have that attitude towards Moghy. Now, why do you think they would go and do that? Why would she not be considered a threat? Why is she so ignored?

 

As I have mentioned before, strength in the Power seems to matter a lot to the FS. You don’t see Lanfear, or Graendal, or Sammael looked down on they way Moghedien is, or Asmodean, for that matter. Why is that? Bolstering their own egos and superiority?

 

No offense, but the term natural timidity is rather laughable. It reeks more of fear than anything else from the Spider to me.

I don’t know how long the War of Power lasted, but I think it was long enough for the Forsaken to get thoroughly acquainted with one another. I would think that they had enough time to size each other up; after all the attitudes we see them with are not developed within the books, they have carried them over from the AoL.

 

There has to be a reason why the Forsaken have that attitude with Moghedien. Lesser strength in the Power is a leading candidate for me. Why is it that Moghedien would rather work from the shadows? Why is she reluctant to go head to head with her competition? Could it be possibly because she can’t match what they would throw at her?

 

In truth we've never seen her act subserviant to any of the Forsaken except Lanfear--indeed, she shows no subserviance at all to Graendal and thats AFTER her soul gets trapped. She could well be stronger than Semirhage or Mesanna--even Graendal never stated that she was stronger than Moghedian.

 

How many times have we seen Moghedien interacting with the other Forsaken? I can’t truthfully recall, but I would guess not enough to know whether she’s subservient to others or not.

I mean I do remember her standing up to Moridin—that is, before she found out who he was. Then, upon realizing his standing she flopped. Wasn’t she kinda of begging right after Graendal shielded her? Before that she knew she had Moridin’s indirect support, and that gave her courage.

The thing is, she sees herself as brave and cunning, but most, if not all Forsaken consider her a coward. They can’t all of them be wrong.

 

Nynaeve seems to be somewhat stronger than Moghedien. And she is the strongest Aes Sedai (Sharina aside).

Nynaeve also is much stronger than the other two Wonder Girls, who are the next strongest Aes Sedai

---

And the Aes Sedai represent (at best) less than 5% of female channelers. If, as RJ states, 1% of the Third Ager population can channel (ergo 0.5% of the total population are female channelers) and 68.2% are strong enough to gain the shawl, there should be thousands more Aes Sedai even with their exacting standards--and thats just in Randland.

 

This goes back to the fact I meant Aes Sedai only, not the whole world. If it’s the latter, then I would agree with you on that.

 

I have no proof, but it seems logical to me that Semirhage and Mesaana (sp) are substantially stronger than Moghedien.

 

Thats just the issue im raising though... why? We've never seen her act subserviant to them. We've never heard them compared. Why is everyone so ready to believe this?

 

Like I said before, it’s the way the other Forsaken think of her, as if she is no threat to them; and from what I’ve seen strength in the Power (though not the only thing) will determine whether you could be a threat or not. That combined with Moghedien’s penchant for working from the shadows. To me that just can’t be her being ‘timid’. Not with the Forsaken’s egos.

 

It's their word against Lanfear's. Sure she has a huge ego, but there seemed to be more than that about her comment that it was impossible for a woman to be stronger than her. I don't think at that time she was thinking as a Forsaken, rather as a researcher, and she is from the AoL, which seems to be littered with channellers of above average strength, which in my mind would increase the likelihood of finding channellers of exceptional strength (kinda like if you want to find the tallest men in Randland you would be stupid not to search among the Aiel).

 

I'm afraid I don't understand this. How is it their word against Lanfears? Both women contemplete an absolute strength, Lanfear ascribes herself to it, and the Aes Sedai suggest Sharina might be it. Where is there a contention? Lanfear has never even met Sharina, and no one at any stage suggested Sharina might be stronger than Lanfear.

 

Unless... are you refering to Cyndane's comment about Alivia? That Alivia was stronger than she had been when she was Lanfear and that that was impossible and therefore Alivia must have an angreal? Well she was correct there... Alivia did have an angreal.

 

It’s the Aes Sedai’s word against Lanfear’s, is what I meant.

Lanfear was a researcher, and had lived for quite a long time, which, I would say, gave her plenty of time to study some about the Power and meet a lot of channelers (the Power was her area of research, right? Just confirming). You could even say that she was qualified to make observations about people’s strength. When she faced Alivia, she was shocked by her strength. It is this shock (and strength) that generated her ‘no woman could be stronger’ thought. By this I mean, it seemed more than just Lanfear not accepting that anyone could be stronger than her. She was too certain And it turned out she was right, Alivia did have an angreal. She doesn’t say that no woman could be as strong as her. That is a possibility.

 

Then there are Aes Sedai. They are theorizing that Sharina could be as strong as a woman can be. Like I said, it is just an idea, but there has to be something backing that idea, thus why I said they must be keeping tabs somewhere. There is a chance they are right in their speculations.

 

My point is this. If Lanfear made that comment (in her head) as a researcher, rather than a Forsaken, then there is a possibility she is right. Just as the Aes Sedai could be right in their theorizing about Sharina. It’s just a matter of who you believe.