OK. Shadowspawn can not use Gateways - it kills them & the Ways are mostly

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Trollocs and Fades in the city were most likely those who had just come out of the waygate there and who just hadn't died from the effects of the ward yet.

 

I guess that depends on how Rand defined "a short time later" ...

 

Once he or any other Forsaken figures that out, it should be relatively easy for them to destroy the ward.    Even if they can not see it. 

 

Kind of like male and female channelers fighting.    They can't see the weaves - but they know where they should be and they just cut them.

 

My problem with that is, if its so easy, why didn't Sammael or Demandred or Rahvin or Halima or Dashiva loot both the Stone (picking up Callandor along the way) or the stuff from Rhuidean at the docks in Cairhien?

 

But, different kinds of wards might be easier to spin through than others, so -shrug- there's just too much we don't know to say for sure.

 

And I think thats going to be the ultimate point here ... we don't know enough about the type of wards and traps that Rand is using on the Waygates to say for sure if it can be effectively countered or not.  And if it can be countered, how much effort/skill does it take.  Is it something that Sammael could do because he was particularly good at it?  Or is it something that any traitor Asha'man could learn?  We don't really know ...

 

But, regardless, I think two things remain true:

 

1) Rand would be well advised to try to trap them all anyway.  At worst, they'll be no more vulnerable then they are now, but there is big time upside to taking the chance.

 

2) He better have someone watch any Waygate he can, because just trapping them may not be nearly as effective as I first intimated.

[Luckers]

But how in the world could Sammael have known that?  -scratching my head-  Rand did invert it, didn't he?  Even if Sammael had a spy in the Royal Palace who told him that Rand went to Shadar Logoth (certainly possible), how would Sammael have known the exact nature of the ward?  In an unusual circumstance, I don't have my copy of Lord of Chaos near my computer at the moment ... its in Chapter 21 if anyone feels like checking for me ...

 

We don't know all the tricks the Forsaken know. I reckon that resonance weave would probably work even on inverted wardings--though that just a complete guess, and after it was found--well Moghedian hints at a method of spinning through wardings you can't see.

 

"Sammael spins through those used at Shadar Logoth." quote from Luckers

 

Can someone explain what that means?  Sammael had the ability to go through wards? 

 

It is possible to break a warding, or to create a gap. We hear about it first from Moghedian, but Sammael is the first we know of to use it--he used it on Rand's warding on the Waygate of Shadar Logoth to bring trollocs through. The Forsaken refer to it as 'spinning a hole' in the warding.

 

Sorry, check that, further down i realised that we don't actually know if Sammael did tamper with Rand's warding. Nevertheless it can be done.

 

Its difficult, requiring skill and concentration. The complexity and strength of the warding seems to be important too, because Be'lal was never able to break the protections around Callandor. Furthermore it seems that you can create a warding to resist being tampered with--as Rand does with Callandor later on.

 

Which makes sense, since it seemingly does take some time to spin a whole, attempting to spin one through a ward that is designed to kill anyone that touched it with the power would be... difficult.

 

We don't know that Sammael spun anything through the ward at the Shadar Logoth waygate.  We assume that he placed inverted wards around the city to detect a man's channeling (Rand thinks this while talking with Moridin), and even that is confirmed when Lighting quickly follows Rand using the flame sword to kill off some Trollocs.  The ward Rand placed around the waygate didn't hinder shadowspawn from passing through it, and it didn't kill them instantly either.  It was designed to let them pass through and then kill them a short time later.  That way more would be killed than if they just dropped dead and stopped coming out of the gate. 

 

Yeah, i went back and checked, and your right. We don't know if Sammael tampered with it after all. My bad.

 

My problem with that is, if its so easy, why didn't Sammael or Demandred or Rahvin or Halima or Dashiva loot both the Stone (picking up Callandor along the way) or the stuff from Rhuidean at the docks in Cairhien?

 

I very much doubt that spinning a hole in any warding is 'easy'. For unrelated ones--by which i mean wardings that arn't designed specifically to ward against channelers--i imagine it takes a lot of effort. The ones designed for channelers would probably be impossible.

 

As a side note, I was always troubled by Tear. Rand, the wonder girls, Moiraine... none of them have any issues with wardings, but Be'lal did? Why?

 

And I think thats going to be the ultimate point here ... we don't know enough about the type of wards and traps that Rand is using on the Waygates to say for sure if it can be effectively countered or not.  And if it can be countered, how much effort/skill does it take.  Is it something that Sammael could do because he was particularly good at it?  Or is it something that any traitor Asha'man could learn?  We don't really know ...

 

But, regardless, I think two things remain true:

 

1) Rand would be well advised to try to trap them all anyway.  At worst, they'll be no more vulnerable then they are now, but there is big time upside to taking the chance.

 

2) He better have someone watch any Waygate he can, because just trapping them may not be nearly as effective as I first intimated.

 

I realised i dont actually know if Sammael did anything to Rand's wards.

 

But other than that i agree. It might be possible to break wards, but that doesn't make it easy.

[Jonn]

I guess if you think of a trap in the conventional sense, you need a trigger and an aparatus that creates the effect.

 

We know that you can tie off a weave or whatever, but do we know how long it takes for these particular weaves to dissapate? From past passages we do know that tied off weaves decay.

 

Take Asmodean's shield from Lanfear for instance.

 

That was a very very complex piece of work and still it faded.

 

the amount of skill, knowledge and power it would take to go to each gate and set a self-purpetuating trap, only to have to recheck it again and again to see if it has been tripped...

 

Plus the cost in time and energy to Travel from sight to sight?

 

If you are thinking of major wards like the one that held Callandor, this was a MAJOR weave. These major weaves were done by huge links usually made by both male and female channelers working together.

 

I don't think you can look at setting several tied off traps in the same way as these major works like the Stone and The Eye of the World. You'd need to create a more complex apparatus. Probably another ter'angreal would be needed to accomplish these things.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We know that you can tie off a weave or whatever, but do we know how long it takes for these particular weaves to dissapate? From past passages we do know that tied off weaves decay.

 

Dead wrong.

 

Week 7 Question: I would like to ask about knotting a weave. Does a channeler determine how long it will last when she knots it or is it dependent on her strength? If a channeler who knotted a weave died, would the weave dissipate immediately?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Take Asmodean's shield from Lanfear for instance.

 

That was a very very complex piece of work and still it faded.

 

If it did fade (which we don't know for sure, some of Rand's comments seem to make it as if it didn't), it was because Lanfear designed it to fade over time.

 

If you are thinking of major wards like the one that held Callandor, this was a MAJOR weave. These major weaves were done by huge links usually made by both male and female channelers working together.

 

Well, since we saw Rand put up the one in Shadar Logoth by himself, with no particular signs of strain, not using his angreal, and he put up another one near Fal Dara, also by himself, I would say that you're just wrong.

 

I don't think you can look at setting several tied off traps in the same way as these major works like the Stone and The Eye of the World. You'd need to create a more complex apparatus.

 

When I'm talking about the Stone, I'm talking about what Rand did at the Stone, when he thrust Callandor into the floor.  He did that by himself.  He also warded the Great Holding and the wagons in Cairhien by himself.  You're the only one who has even mentioned the Eye in this context ...

 

Probably another ter'angreal would be needed to accomplish these things.

 

Or not.  Since we've already seen it done without one.

[icspots]

But how in the world could Sammael have known that?  -scratching my head-  Rand did invert it, didn't he?  Even if Sammael had a spy in the Royal Palace who told him that Rand went to Shadar Logoth (certainly possible), how would Sammael have known the exact nature of the ward?  In an unusual circumstance, I don't have my copy of Lord of Chaos near my computer at the moment ... its in Chapter 21 if anyone feels like checking for me ...

 

Rand did invert the ward so Sammael couldn't have known the nature of the ward.  If he had then he probably wouldn't have brought trollocs and fades out of that waygate just to die shortly there after.  I still find it most likely that an Aiel DF reported that they went to the waygate at Shadar Logoth, saw the metal pieces fall, saw them magically rise back together (therefore knowing that Rand channeled at it) and then they left.  So now Sammael knows that something happened at that waygate to "mark it as Rand's".  He doesn't know what the ward is, so I doubt that he would go randomly channeling at it since any ward that may be there might be designed to kill anyone that channels against it.

 

As a side note, I was always troubled by Tear. Rand, the wonder girls, Moiraine... none of them have any issues with wardings, but Be'lal did? Why?

 

When everyone gets to the Stone in TDR the only wards that we know of are: the ward on Callandor, and the ward in the dining room at the inn.  The ward on Callandor is specifically attuned to Rand and was made by a circle of women and men (at least two men were mentioned in Rand's memories in the columns at Rhuidean) so that's what.... possibly 50 odd Aes Sedai of the AoL?  I imagine the most adept Aes Sedai at making wards was the one who controlled the link as well, so of course Be'lal had difficulty breaking through that ward.... he wasn't Rand.  The ward that captured Faile (and later Perrin) was made by one of Liandrin's 13 and was supposed to capture Moiraine.  Those are the only wards that were present at the time.

 

1) Rand would be well advised to try to trap them all anyway.  At worst, they'll be no more vulnerable then they are now, but there is big time upside to taking the chance.

 

Agreed

 

I guess that depends on how Rand defined "a short time later" ...

 

In the chapter Rand thinks that it might even be enough time for some of the trollocs to get out of the city, and Shadar Logoth isn't exactly small.  From that I surmise that they should be able to live long enough to wander around the city looking for him.

 

My problem with that is, if its so easy, why didn't Sammael or Demandred or Rahvin or Halima or Dashiva loot both the Stone (picking up Callandor along the way) or the stuff from Rhuidean at the docks in Cairhien?

 

But, different kinds of wards might be easier to spin through than others, so -shrug- there's just too much we don't know to say for sure.

 

And I think thats going to be the ultimate point here ... we don't know enough about the type of wards and traps that Rand is using on the Waygates to say for sure if it can be effectively countered or not.  And if it can be countered, how much effort/skill does it take.  Is it something that Sammael could do because he was particularly good at it?  Or is it something that any traitor Asha'man could learn?  We don't really know

 

I agree that the difficulty in breaking a ward is a product of the complexity of the ward itself, it's composition (i.e. what it's "programmed" to do), and the talent of the person breaking it.  Be'lal was unable to get through the ward on Callandor because it was well made and desinged to not be broken until Rand came along.  As far as we know no Forsaken know that some waygates are booby trapped, and since they can't see the wards (unless they know some sort of resonance thing) I don't see much reason in them blindly trying to break wards that may or may not be there, and may or may not have traps set around them.  When Rand initially put Callandor in the stone he wove nasty traps around it.  I'm sure once the surviving male forsaken found out it was there they went to get it..... and saw all the nasty traps.  It wasn't until tFoH that Rand came back and inverted the weaves on the wards.  I don't know about the ones in Rhuidean, Carhien and the Great Holding though.

 

 

 

[aevogt]

Rand used Callandor to set the wards around it when he left it in the Heart of the Stone.  Since the AoL circle who put callandor in the Stone in the first place used it as well (presumably the reason they needed men to get it done) it's reasonable to assume that Rand's warding would have been less powerful than the original one created by a circle, but powerful enough to keep anyone from taking it without a sufficiently srtong sa angreal. 

 

Since Lanfear tells him that there were TWO more powerful that a man can use (TSR 128) (the Choden Kal and ?something else, possibly something undiscovered or lost in the breaking)  No one was going to get through that ward unless they knew the trick of it (Narishma) regardless of wether they could see it or not.

 

Rand says about the trap in the Stone  "I almost hope they'll try.  The Power is all it needs to spring and reset, ready to trap again" TSR pg244. 

 

And this all before he was taught anything by Asmodean.  Once Asmo teaches him to invert his weaves, he skips down to Tear and inverts the trap.  I'm just finishing TSR on a reread so I haven't gotten to that part so I can't quote C & V. 

 

I would assume that spinning through a ward would, at least to some degree, take into account the strength used to spin the weave, otherwise what's the point.

 

On the other note, I always pictured the Waygate wards as like vertical strands of spider silk.  They brush any shadowspawn that passes through them but are still there to infect the next one.  

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand did invert the ward so Sammael couldn't have known the nature of the ward.  If he had then he probably wouldn't have brought trollocs and fades out of that waygate just to die shortly there after.

 

To be fair, we don't know for a fact that Rand's trap was sprung and the Trollocs were dying.  Mashadar was killing them before the trap would have had a chance to take effect.  So, we don't know whether he spun through it or not.

 

I still find it most likely that an Aiel DF reported that they went to the waygate at Shadar Logoth, saw the metal pieces fall, saw them magically rise back together (therefore knowing that Rand channeled at it) and then they left.

 

I agree.

 

He doesn't know what the ward is, so I doubt that he would go randomly channeling at it since any ward that may be there might be designed to kill anyone that channels against it.

 

This is the crux of the matter.  The Forsaken do know some way to deal with flows that they cannot see.  Lanfear consistently dealt with Rand.  For that matter, some Aes Sedai must know a way too.  Verin survived her encounter with Graendal, after all (and boy do I think Rand's ta'veren was in overdrive helping her there!)

 

I think there is enough doubt in this issue that Rand should, even based on just what he knows, try to guard the Waygates with both physical guards and Power woven traps, and certainly weave traps around the unguarded ones (or rather, teach someone else and send them to do it -cough- Karldin -cough-).  He should also ask the Ogier to permanently remove the Avendesora leaves.  The Light has no need of the Ways, now that they can Travel.  They are only useful to the Shadow.  If a means of cleansing them is found later, the Ogier can use the Talisman of Growing to fix the dead Gates.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on January 22, 2008, 09:49:42 PM

As a side note, I was always troubled by Tear. Rand, the wonder girls, Moiraine... none of them have any issues with wardings, but Be'lal did? Why?

 

When everyone gets to the Stone in TDR the only wards that we know of are: the ward on Callandor, and the ward in the dining room at the inn.  The ward on Callandor is specifically attuned to Rand and was made by a circle of women and men (at least two men were mentioned in Rand's memories in the columns at Rhuidean) so that's what.... possibly 50 odd Aes Sedai of the AoL?  I imagine the most adept Aes Sedai at making wards was the one who controlled the link as well, so of course Be'lal had difficulty breaking through that ward.... he wasn't Rand.  The ward that captured Faile (and later Perrin) was made by one of Liandrin's 13 and was supposed to capture Moiraine.  Those are the only wards that were present at the time.

 

No, there were also the wardings protecting the Great Holding in Tear--which as I said somehow stopped Be'lal getting at them, but not Rand or the Wonder girls. They didn't even speak of encountering anything of the sort. Also how did the protections of Rhuidean work if people could simply wander in and out. Why did it take so long for Asmodean to breach those protections? Were these wardings specifically constructed to resist the Forsaken, and if not, why could Rand and the others get through them as if they weren't there?

 

Also Faile was taken down by the hedgehog ter'angreal. The ward was only to alert Be'lal that Moiraine was out of the game.

 

 

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand talks/thinks about his trap on Callandor way back when, about how it only needs the power to trap and reset. I guess he means power in the sense of the trap's target using the power to pull the sword out of the floor of the Stone.

 

So unsupported by anything I can remember in the books: say Sammy makes his wards to detect Saidan being used in SL. Some of his shadowspawn trip the trap on the Waygate, Rand's trap uses some Saidan thus tripping Sammy's ward?

 

But I'm rapidly starting to have problems with that scenario. Sammy's a busy guy: he's all over the place plus fighting a war against Rand's army. That he has shadowspawn coming out of the Waygate when Rand decides to attack Illian (which was a pretty quick decision after being in a coma for days) seems a big coincidence. Having some shadowspawn camped near SL (where they need constant chiding to stay in the area and patrol the city)...I guess it's not too big of a deal to get them there. (I'm guessing Rand's trap works in at most a matter of hours, since he thinks they can get far enough away from the Waygate not to arouse suspicion but doesn't seem worried about them getting somewhere to cause trouble, but then Shadar Logoth is pretty far off the beaten path.)

[Tyrell]

Quote from: Luckers on January 22, 2008, 09:49:42 PM

As a side note, I was always troubled by Tear. Rand, the wonder girls, Moiraine... none of them have any issues with wardings, but Be'lal did? Why?

 

When everyone gets to the Stone in TDR the only wards that we know of are: the ward on Callandor, and the ward in the dining room at the inn.  The ward on Callandor is specifically attuned to Rand and was made by a circle of women and men (at least two men were mentioned in Rand's memories in the columns at Rhuidean) so that's what.... possibly 50 odd Aes Sedai of the AoL?  I imagine the most adept Aes Sedai at making wards was the one who controlled the link as well, so of course Be'lal had difficulty breaking through that ward.... he wasn't Rand.  The ward that captured Faile (and later Perrin) was made by one of Liandrin's 13 and was supposed to capture Moiraine.  Those are the only wards that were present at the time.

 

No, there were also the wardings protecting the Great Holding in Tear--which as I said somehow stopped Be'lal getting at them, but not Rand or the Wonder girls. They didn't even speak of encountering anything of the sort. Also how did the protections of Rhuidean work if people could simply wander in and out. Why did it take so long for Asmodean to breach those protections? Were these wardings specifically constructed to resist the Forsaken, and if not, why could Rand and the others get through them as if they weren't there?

 

Also Faile was taken down by the hedgehog ter'angreal. The ward was only to alert Be'lal that Moiraine was out of the game.

 

 

 

Protections on the great holding prior to rand putting them there?  Really? Where does it say that?

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, there were also the wardings protecting the Great Holding in Tear--which as I said somehow stopped Be'lal getting at them, but not Rand or the Wonder girls.

 

Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of those wardings ... I just thought Be'lal was stupid and ignored what was down there to concentrate on Callandor.  It is yet another reason that I find him to be one of the more dissapointing Forsaken ... the little fat man was down there, after all.

 

Could you elaborate on where those wardings are referenced?  Given the attitude of the Tairens toward channelers, indeed, the whole reason that they accumulated the Great Holding, it seems unlikely that they brought in some Sisters to ward it ...

 

So unsupported by anything I can remember in the books: say Sammy makes his wards to detect Saidan being used in SL. Some of his shadowspawn trip the trap on the Waygate, Rand's trap uses some Saidan thus tripping Sammy's ward?

 

We just don't know enough about the different weaves in play to say for sure.  Certainly we can't say that the scenario you proposed there is categorically impossible.

 

That he has shadowspawn coming out of the Waygate when Rand decides to attack Illian (which was a pretty quick decision after being in a coma for days) seems a big coincidence.

 

Actually, that was the plan all along ... only the timing was in question.

 

Given what happened in Caemlyn to Rahvin, Sammael had reason to anticipate that Rand would come for him personally.

 

Having some shadowspawn camped near SL (where they need constant chiding to stay in the area and patrol the city)...I guess it's not too big of a deal to get them there.

 

Thats what I had always figured he had done ... brought some in from elsewhere and had them waiting outside the city.  But, since we don't know the exact timing of Rand's trap, all three possibilities remain on the table, either 1) Sammael managed to make a hole in Rand's trap, 2) He didn't make a hole in it and all of the Shadowspawn were dead men walking, or 3) The Shadowspawn came from somewhere else.  All are possible .... I'm sort of leaning toward #1 or #3 right now, because if those Shadowspawn had just barely arrived (per option #2), Sammael would have had to have them waiting in the Ways ... which is unlikely for a different set of reasons, although not totally impossible given what just happened at Lord Algarin's manor.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

The wards on the Great Holding are mentioned in the Forsaken coffee hour by Mesaana- she mentions it's a "nasty thing" that would have seized her if she tried to enter or channel at it. She speculated that there was a ward against men as well, or "else Demandred would have had his angreal and launched himself at Rand al'Thor long since."

 

Note: This ward is not inverted.

 

The poster above apparently assumed these wards predated Be'lal's presence. I agree with RAW- Be'lal's arrogance would easily lead to scorning crumbs when a feast awaited. More, since the Great Hold isn't catalogued, he may have considered it too time-consuming.

 

Since the ward against women isn't inverted, yet Moiraine entered the Great Hold safely, I always assumed Moiraine did it. Since Moiraine was capable, and certainly understood wards, it's not out of character for her to do something like this to protect against the Forsaken- particularly Lanfear, whom she knew had visited Rand and Tear and possibly investigated the hold.

 

Alternately, Lanfear may have done it to be "helpful."

[The Lost One]

I don't really remember the wards on the Great Holding...but just from reading what is here, I had a thought...

 

Could the wards on the Great Holding have been set to "go away" or disappear, once the Dragon held Callandor?  thus giving the Dragon and his followers access to the Great Holding at the same time?

 

just a thought

 

 

 

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Who would have put them there- the Great Hold is not and was not part of the design of the Stone by the Age of Legends Aes Sedai. It was added later by the rulers of what is now Tear, none of whom could channel.

[icspots]

Rand used Callandor to set the wards around it when he left it in the Heart of the Stone.  Since the AoL circle who put callandor in the Stone in the first place used it as well (presumably the reason they needed men to get it done) it's reasonable to assume that Rand's warding would have been less powerful than the original one created by a circle, but powerful enough to keep anyone from taking it without a sufficiently srtong sa angreal.

 

Well they needed men in the link not only to use Callandor, but also so that they could make the link larger.  We don't know that they used Callandor, however it seems like it would be silly not to

 

No one was going to get through that ward unless they knew the trick of it (Narishma) regardless of wether they could see it or not.

 

If the ward was clumsily woven then it could probably still be worked through with time.  Not saying it was easy, but I don't want to make the absolute that just because it was woven with a Sa'angreal that it couldn't be broken without one.

 

To be fair, we don't know for a fact that Rand's trap was sprung and the Trollocs were dying.  Mashadar was killing them before the trap would have had a chance to take effect.  So, we don't know whether he spun through it or not.

 

True.  I think I remember from my reread of chapter 21 the other night when Rand approached the Waygate looking for Sammael that he still saw the inverted weaves of his ward around the waygate.  If Sammael had done anything to the ward then I doubt the weaves would still be sitting there all pretty.  So assuming that the Trollocs came through the waygate (made more likely by the fact that all the metal pieces were lying on the ground) they were still dead "men" walking.

 

This is the crux of the matter.  The Forsaken do know some way to deal with flows that they cannot see.  Lanfear consistently dealt with Rand.  For that matter, some Aes Sedai must know a way too.  Verin survived her encounter with Graendal, after all (and boy do I think Rand's ta'veren was in overdrive helping her there!)

 

Obviously AoL Aes Sedai were trained in how to deal with flows they couldn't see.... even modern Aes Sedai (esp. Red Ajah) are trained for that to some extent.  That being said there's a difference in defending against something you know is coming at you (i.e. you're battling someone) vs. looking for and disrupting weaves that you have no reason to know are there (i.e. a ward that you happen past with you having no reason to suspect it's there).

 

I think there is enough doubt in this issue that Rand should, even based on just what he knows, try to guard the Waygates with both physical guards and Power woven traps, and certainly weave traps around the unguarded ones (or rather, teach someone else and send them to do it -cough- Karldin -cough-).  He should also ask the Ogier to permanently remove the Avendesora leaves.  The Light has no need of the Ways, now that they can Travel.  They are only useful to the Shadow.  If a means of cleansing them is found later, the Ogier can use the Talisman of Growing to fix the dead Gates.

 

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

Also Faile was taken down by the hedgehog ter'angreal. The ward was only to alert Be'lal that Moiraine was out of the game.

 

Good point on the ward re: Faile.. forgot it was just a warning device.

 

The wards on the Great Holding are mentioned in the Forsaken coffee hour by Mesaana- she mentions it's a "nasty thing" that would have seized her if she tried to enter or channel at it. She speculated that there was a ward against men as well, or "else Demandred would have had his angreal and launched himself at Rand al'Thor long since."

 

Note: This ward is not inverted.

 

The poster above apparently assumed these wards predated Be'lal's presence. I agree with RAW- Be'lal's arrogance would easily lead to scorning crumbs when a feast awaited. More, since the Great Hold isn't catalogued, he may have considered it too time-consuming.

 

Since the ward against women isn't inverted, yet Moiraine entered the Great Hold safely, I always assumed Moiraine did it. Since Moiraine was capable, and certainly understood wards, it's not out of character for her to do something like this to protect against the Forsaken- particularly Lanfear, whom she knew had visited Rand and Tear and possibly investigated the hold.

 

Alternately, Lanfear may have done it to be "helpful."

 

Yeah once you mentioned them in the context of the "social" I remembered them.  I agree also that Moiraine probably set them..... I suppose it's possible that Lanfear did, but I just don't see her doing that. 

 

Who would have put them there- the Great Hold is not and was not part of the design of the Stone by the Age of Legends Aes Sedai. It was added later by the rulers of what is now Tear, none of whom could channel.

 

+1 the great holding was a creation of the Lords of Tear who were trying to: A) remove anything doing with the power from general circulation, and B) trying to diminish the significance of Callandor in the Heart of the Stone.  At least those are Moiraine's thoughts on the matter.  That being said it seems unlikely that the AoL Aes Sedai made any wards concerning something that didn't exist yet.

[Luckers]

The wards on the Great Holding are mentioned in the Forsaken coffee hour by Mesaana- she mentions it's a "nasty thing" that would have seized her if she tried to enter or channel at it. She speculated that there was a ward against men as well, or "else Demandred would have had his angreal and launched himself at Rand al'Thor long since."

 

Note: This ward is not inverted.

 

The poster above apparently assumed these wards predated Be'lal's presence. I agree with RAW- Be'lal's arrogance would easily lead to scorning crumbs when a feast awaited. More, since the Great Hold isn't catalogued, he may have considered it too time-consuming.

 

Since the ward against women isn't inverted, yet Moiraine entered the Great Hold safely, I always assumed Moiraine did it. Since Moiraine was capable, and certainly understood wards, it's not out of character for her to do something like this to protect against the Forsaken- particularly Lanfear, whom she knew had visited Rand and Tear and possibly investigated the hold.

 

Alternately, Lanfear may have done it to be "helpful."

 

I don't see Be'lal being that stupid. It took an untrained country hick a bare hour to find himself an angreal--why would Be'lal who was in the Stone for nearly four months have found himself some time to explore. I mean just look at the mans desperation to gain Callandor. He haunts the Heart even in the World of Dreams... and he what, ignored the gigantic stash of other power related objects?

 

As a side note, recall that the currect Tairen dislike for Aes Sedai might only be endemic of the modern Tairens. Indeed, we know that when Guire Amalasan laid siege to the Stone he only failed because of the thirty Aes Sedai that were in residence there, and during the Compact of the Ten Nations Essenia was a close ally of the Tower.

 

My issue was more in its selectivity. It stops Forsaken but not Rand... why? What Third Ager could have created a ward that specific?

[Cybertrolloc]

I don't see Be'lal being that stupid. It took an untrained country hick a bare hour to find himself an angreal--why would Be'lal who was in the Stone for nearly four months have found himself some time to explore. I mean just look at the mans desperation to gain Callandor. He haunts the Heart even in the World of Dreams... and he what, ignored the gigantic stash of other power related objects?

Rand said Callandor showed him the angreal, something along those lines. Be'lal had other things going on, and this is also in the time that the Forsaken weren't worried at all about Randlanders. Also the Holding is a big jumble of random stuff...and Callandor is a huge deal... There really aren't any excuses. Boy wonder beats Ishy and you're going to put Callandor in his hands? Not digging through the Stone's stash doesn't even make the top ten list of Be'lal's funniest oversights.

[Luckers]

Callandor didn't show Rand the angreal, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. As for the rest... Be'lal was in the Stone for four months, with nothing to do except control fractious nobles with compulsion. I'm sorry, but do you really claim that in this time he had no time for taking a look at one of the worlds greatest store of ter'angreal and angreal? One of the major driving forces behind all the Forsakens action is finding ter'angreal and angreal--look at the efforts that Moghedian and Sammael went to in Ebou Dar--and your really suggesting he priortized it down this list... this at a time when he was dedicating even his sleeping hours to the contemplation of Callandor?

 

I'm sorry, but not digging through the stash of ter'angreal and angreal in the stone warrants Be'lals number one oversight. By a long way.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As a side note, recall that the currect Tairen dislike for Aes Sedai might only be endemic of the modern Tairens. Indeed, we know that when Guire Amalasan laid siege to the Stone he only failed because of the thirty Aes Sedai that were in residence there, and during the Compact of the Ten Nations Essenia was a close ally of the Tower.

 

But the Great Holding is also a recent thing, and is said by Moiraine to be a direct result of that dislike for channelers.

 

My issue was more in its selectivity. It stops Forsaken but not Rand... why? What Third Ager could have created a ward that specific?

 

None, as far as we know.  Thats why I don't think there was one there.  The Forsaken have been colossally stupid before.

[aevogt]

Rand says "It was the sword that made be pick it up"  or words to that effect.  He was talking about the sword the "fat little man" was holding across his knees, which any man who knows the sword, or had had a sword, would have found interesting enough to pick up in passing.  Once he touched it and held it for a time, he would ahve felt it grow slightly warm and known it for an angreal attuned to men.

 

There is another reference to this.  Bayle Doman mentions buying something from a merchant who insists that the object grows warm if it's held for a while. The merchant was probably a latent channeler and the object was an angreal.  I think this was in TGH when he is playing with his DO Seal, before he leaves Illian.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

its been a LONG time since i've read the first few books and i don't really remember anything that involved the great holding.

 

isn't it possible that Be'lal looked, but simply didn't find any angreal?  he did have 4 months to look, but alot of the great holding items probably weren't even power-related in the first place.  among the power-items, the vast majority of them would have been ter'angreal.  among the handful of angreal that MAY have been in there,a bunch would have been female ones. w/e male angreals were left would be small items that could easily be hidden underneath the piles of junk.

 

the reason rand would have so easily found the fat man was because of his ta'vereness.

[BrainFireBob]

And let's not forget, again, that Be'lal really hated to settle for anything- much like Demandred or Sammael. He could waste his time looking for a store-room mainly filled with rubbish on the offchance there's actually a male angreal there- a fairly remote chance, since the expectation would be that only female ones were identifiable- or he could patiently wait to seize Callandor. The patient Netweaver arrogantly waited for Callandor.

[Luckers]

But the Great Holding is also a recent thing, and is said by Moiraine to be a direct result of that dislike for channelers.

 

We don't actually know that either. What if the gathering began, then the opinion got better for a while, and then it went back.

 

None, as far as we know.  Thats why I don't think there was one there.  The Forsaken have been colossally stupid before.

 

I don't know about that Robert. There is a difference between their capacity for stupid and suggesting that they would ignore one of their single driving desires. I just really don't buy Be'lal simply ignoring the Great Holding.

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand says "It was the sword that made be pick it up"  or words to that effect.  He was talking about the sword the "fat little man" was holding across his knees, which any man who knows the sword, or had had a sword, would have found interesting enough to pick up in passing.  Once he touched it and held it for a time, he would ahve felt it grow slightly warm and known it for an angreal attuned to men.

Heh, that makes actual sense, as opposed to what I thought ;)

 

There are mentions that sa/angreal for men are rarer than those for women. But there should be a lot of useful and immediately recognizable AoL gadgets too... I'll work on my top ten dumb things Be'lal did or overlooked one of these days.

[DemandredFO]

Like people said, Be'lal was focused on Callandor and the others were focused I'm sure on the male access key.  once those two only probable remaining sa'angreal were gone they would have begun the search for angreal.  Be'lal liked traps.  Demandred may have gone for anything for an edge but I believe Be'lal went for broke and got broke.

 

On another subject I'm wondering if Doman has remained around in addition to the other stuff he's done, to provide his angreal at the last minute.  Just a thought