OK. Shadowspawn can not use Gateways - it kills them & the Ways are mostly

[wvlr]

OK.    Shadowspawn can not use Gateways - it kills them & the Ways are partly closed - blocked by Rand's orders.    So what about Portal Stones.      The Forsaken are very knowledgable about things from AoL and prior so wouldn't they be able to use Portal Stones to move Shadowspawn around?    I would think that it would be much better than using the Ways because Mack Shin kills so many and some many exits are now closed.

 

Surely a forsaken would not have had the problems that Rand did.

 

What do you think?    Has this been discussed before.

 

 

[Guest durram laddel cham]

I guess the forsaken will have the same problem Rand had when he tried to go to rhuidean. he had to use an angreal to move 500(?) men and some horses, imagine what you amount of OP you need to move let's say 5000 trollocs. Maby with Choedan Kal can they move an army via a portal stone, but I guess that without they just won't be able.

[Vambram]

Using linked channelers, a gateway can be formed that is big enough in order to move large amounts of people from one location to another.

[Guest leebarr]

it would be very difficult. to avoid the probelm Rand had it would take a link of two or more forsanken and they just do not trust each other enough

[aevogt]

Using linked channelers, a gateway can be formed that is big enough in order to move large amounts of people from one location to another.

 

But not shadowspawn

[Luckers]

Keep in mind that a channeler can blast through a sealed waygate--much like Moiraine did in the Eye of the World. And if the channeler is talented enough they can also spin through wardings like Sammael did at Shadar Logoth.

 

They Ways are not completely out of the game yet.

[MystErikEry]

Where does it say gateways kill shadowspawn?  Surely they can be transported just as easily as darkfriends and so on...

[wvlr]

Where does it say gateways kill shadowspawn?  Surely they can be transported just as easily as darkfriends and so on...

 

That would be in AKoD after the Huge battle at the farm where Rand created Deathgates.  logain asked him about them because he had just copied Rands.    He said something like "where did we send them?"    &  Rand said back something like:    "It does not matter.  Shadowspawn can't use any gateway - it kills them."

 

Sorry that this is not a direct quote but that is where you will find it if you want.

[Chel Vanin]

I was under the impression that the deathgates were a different weaving than a gateway, and that whatever went through a deathgate was killed, not to mention almost certainly sliced to pieces because it rotates.

 

I don't remember any shadowspawn being warped via gateway so maybe its true that shadowspawn can't use gateways but i would also like that quote of Rand's. I thought it was something to the effect of "it doesn't matter where they went they're dead" i didn't remember him saying all gateways kills shadowspawn. However i could be wrong.

 

as for the waygates, i doubt they're completely out of the game just yet.

 

as for the portal stones i seem to remember hearing that they were older than the AoL and AS even then didn't know a whole lot about them and only the strongest AS used them and then only rarely. also to transport shadowspawn that way you're gonna need powerful channelers and at this point, there just aren't enough (powerful) channelers on the DO's side to pull that off.

 

Some black ajah, Taim's asha'man, and the forsaken. Thats about it and not enough to make portal stones a useful option IMO.

[Chel Vanin]

I ask for a direct quote then get impatient and find it myself  :P

 

AKoD ch. 19 pg 413

"It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

 

I never paid enough attention, this was a very exciting scene and I tend to miss a lot in these scenes whcih always make re-reading fun :) So it does seem that all gateways kill shadowspawn, later Rand says some of the Shadowspawn will be found in random places with no marks on them at all. Kinda strange that that wasn't mentioned more in the books, seems kind of important.

 

Although I suppose it could be that only deathgates would kill them, however, he used the term gateways in the book so that leads me to believe otherwise...

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i clearly remember rand dwelling on why none of the forsaken had yet used gateways to transport trollocs for surprise attacks(that would likely be overwhelming successes).  i believe the answer was delayed just to create a feeling of suspense and impending doom(imagine TG with trollocs constantly coming out of gateways from every direction)

 

as for the validity of the claim, RJ himself said in a Q&A that shadowspawn couldn't be moved through gateways

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Passing through any kind of gateway at all (Skimming, Travelling, or Deathgates) will indeed kill Shadowspawn.

 

But Luckers is right about the Ways not being totally out of play.  The two on the Shadow Coast and several throughout the Borderlands are apparently unguarded, at present ...

 

I personally think this is a major error on Rand's part.  An inverted trap like the one he wove at Shadar Logoth around each Waygate would solve this problem.  He wouldn't have even had to bother the Ogier with it.  Just teach Karldin how to weave it, and then have him do it.  That weave doesn't even touch humans or Ogier, so he wouldn't be endangering any allies, and the Forsaken wouldn't even see or sense it.  He's proven his weaving can be effective against them (he's kept Callandor and the stuff from Rhuidean safe).  Why he didn't just ward all the Waygates against Shadowspawn is beyond me.  Moving Shadowspawn is the only reason the Shadow has to use the Ways ... if they're moving Darkfriends they can use gateways.

[Majsju]

As Rand tells Loial in KOD, even when he roughly knows where a waygate is, he has been unable to actually find it.

Which is the very reason why Elder haman agreed to stay with Rand instead of going back to the Stump. And since Rand is quite busy, it seems logical he would have taught one of his loyal Asha'man the weaves needed, and sent him and Haman to fix the remaining ones.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As Rand tells Loial in KOD, even when he roughly knows where a waygate is, he has been unable to actually find it.

Which is the very reason why Elder haman agreed to stay with Rand instead of going back to the Stump. And since Rand is quite busy, it seems logical he would have taught one of his loyal Asha'man the weaves needed, and sent him and Haman to fix the remaining ones.

 

Yes.  Like, maybe Karldin?  He already sent Karldin, with Loial, to all those stedding.  What I'm wondering is, why did he bother telling them to ask the Ogier in those stedding to guard the Waygates.  Just teach Karldin the ward, and let Loial find the Wayagtes.  Problem solved. 

 

As things stand, they went to all the stedding in the Borderlands, and the ones on the Shadow Coast, and left with them still unguarded.  And the others are guarded by Ogier.  I know Ogier can be fearsome, but they aren't bulletproof ... if the Shadow throws enough Shadowspawn at them then the Ogier guard will be swarmed under.  There aren't really that many Ogier at each stedding ... and a relatively small number of those will be assigned to the guard.  Why ask the Ogier to take that risk when its unnecessary?  Just ward them all and be done.

 

It does seem logical that Rand would have taught one of his loyal Asha'man the weaves needed, and sent him to ward the Waygates.  But that isn't what he seems to have done.  He said right out that he put a nasty trap on the one outside Fal Dara ... I just don't know why he didn't have Karldin do the same to the rest.  Then the ones in the Borderlands and the Shadow Coast wouldn't be unguarded, and the Ogier wouldn't be in unnecessary danger at the rest of the stedding.

[Majsju]

Yes.  Like, maybe Karldin?  He already sent Karldin, with Loial, to all those stedding.  What I'm wondering is, why did he bother telling them to ask the Ogier in those stedding to guard the Waygates.  Just teach Karldin the ward, and let Loial find the Wayagtes.  Problem solved. 

 

Just too bad Rand is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer...

 

 

[Luckers]

I personally think this is a major error on Rand's part.  An inverted trap like the one he wove at Shadar Logoth around each Waygate would solve this problem.  He wouldn't have even had to bother the Ogier with it.  Just teach Karldin how to weave it, and then have him do it.  That weave doesn't even touch humans or Ogier, so he wouldn't be endangering any allies, and the Forsaken wouldn't even see or sense it.  He's proven his weaving can be effective against them (he's kept Callandor and the stuff from Rhuidean safe).  Why he didn't just ward all the Waygates against Shadowspawn is beyond me.  Moving Shadowspawn is the only reason the Shadow has to use the Ways ... if they're moving Darkfriends they can use gateways.

 

Actually its been shown that the type of warding nessasary to stop or kill shadowspawn are not impregnable. Sammael spins through those used at Shadar Logoth.

 

Keep in mind that wardings can be breached, and that wardings of different natures are... well, different.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually its been shown that the type of warding nessasary to stop or kill shadowspawn are not impregnable. Sammael spins through those used at Shadar Logoth.

 

I always figured that Sammael had brought in the Trollocs from elsewhere ... but you're right, because if he didn't spin through Rand's ward on the Waygate, then how would he know that the Waygate was the place that Rand had "marked" in Shadar Logoth.

 

And Sammael could spin through that ward without worrying about triggering it because it wasn't set for humans (as opposed to the wards on Callandor, the Great Holding, Moiraine's Wagon Train and Curiosity Shoppe, etc).

 

But how in the world could Sammael have known that?  -scratching my head-  Rand did invert it, didn't he?  Even if Sammael had a spy in the Royal Palace who told him that Rand went to Shadar Logoth (certainly possible), how would Sammael have known the exact nature of the ward?  In an unusual circumstance, I don't have my copy of Lord of Chaos near my computer at the moment ... its in Chapter 21 if anyone feels like checking for me ...

 

Still, its unlikely that Sammael would have shared what Rand did ... although apparently Moridin knew too ...

 

Anyway, its far better than doing nothing.  Certainly the Waygates at stedding where the Ogier didn't agree to guard them should be warded.  Rand wove something at Fal Dara that he apparently thinks will be effective ... so why stop there?

[rd2000]

If a waygate is in a stedding, it can't be warded.

 

Inverted weaves are old game to the Forsaken, maybe some of them know how to detect certain inverted weaves.

[The Lost One]

"Sammael spins through those used at Shadar Logoth." quote from Luckers

 

Can someone explain what that means?  Sammael had the ability to go through wards?  

[icspots]

If a waygate is in a stedding, it can't be warded.

 

Inverted weaves are old game to the Forsaken, maybe some of them know how to detect certain inverted weaves.

 

All the waygates are just outside of stedding.  The Ter'angreal that created them can be used by non-channelers but still draws Saidin, so it has to be outside the stedding.

 

Actually its been shown that the type of warding nessasary to stop or kill shadowspawn are not impregnable. Sammael spins through those used at Shadar Logoth.

 

Keep in mind that wardings can be breached, and that wardings of different natures are... well, different.

 

We don't know that Sammael spun anything through the ward at the Shadar Logoth waygate.  We assume that he placed inverted wards around the city to detect a man's channeling (Rand thinks this while talking with Moridin), and even that is confirmed when Lighting quickly follows Rand using the flame sword to kill off some Trollocs.  The ward Rand placed around the waygate didn't hinder shadowspawn from passing through it, and it didn't kill them instantly either.  It was designed to let them pass through and then kill them a short time later.  That way more would be killed than if they just dropped dead and stopped coming out of the gate. 

 

 

I always figured that Sammael had brought in the Trollocs from elsewhere ... but you're right, because if he didn't spin through Rand's ward on the Waygate, then how would he know that the Waygate was the place that Rand had "marked" in Shadar Logoth.

 

The Trollocs and Fades in the city were most likely those who had just come out of the waygate there and who just hadn't died from the effects of the ward yet. 

 

As to how Sammael knew that Rand did something in Shadar Logoth and that it was at the waygate I think the simplest answer is that one of the 50 maidens (well 49 if you subtract Liah) is a darkfriend and reported that they went there and went straight to the waygate and that Rand obviously did something to it before they left.  Even if they just reported that they went there and looked at the waygate a smart forsaken (oxymoron I know) would probably infer that Rand did something to it otherwise why go at all.  It's also possible that Sammael knows a way to detect the presence of inverted weaves but not exactly what they are... similar to the Aes Sedai who created a weave to detect a man's channeling, or Cadsuane's Ter'angreal to disrupt weaves (even inverted ones).

[wvlr]

As to how Sammael knew that Rand did something in Shadar Logoth and that it was at the waygate I think the simplest answer is that one of the 50 maidens (well 49 if you subtract Liah) is a darkfriend and reported that they went there and went straight to the waygate and that Rand obviously did something to it before they left.  Even if they just reported that they went there and looked at the waygate a smart forsaken (oxymoron I know) would probably infer that Rand did something to it otherwise why go at all.  It's also possible that Sammael knows a way to detect the presence of inverted weaves but not exactly what they are... similar to the Aes Sedai who created a weave to detect a man's channeling, or Cadsuane's Ter'angreal to disrupt weaves (even inverted ones).

 

Quite possible.

 

I always figured that it only took a few times of sending Shadowspawn through the Waygate and having them die a short time after, for Samuel to figure out that it was booby-traped.

 

Once he or any other Forsaken figures that out, it should be relatively easy for them to destroy the ward.    Even if they can not see it.   

 

Kind of like male and female channelers fighting.    They can't see the weaves - but they know where they should be and they just cut them.

 

But your suggestion works as well.

[aevogt]

I got the impression that the waygates on the shadow coast were unguarded but had been warded by Karldin when he and Loial paid them a visit. 

[G.I.]

Not knowing everything there is to know about wardings..., once a ward is 'sprung', does it need to be re-set?  If so, there is a good arguement against using wards on all the waygates as opposed to guarding them.  Maybe Sammel didn't spin his way through the ward at SL, but rather sprung the ward, causing it to be ineffective???  Just a thought.

[icspots]

Not knowing everything there is to know about wardings..., once a ward is 'sprung', does it need to be re-set?  If so, there is a good arguement against using wards on all the waygates as opposed to guarding them.  Maybe Sammel didn't spin his way through the ward at SL, but rather sprung the ward, causing it to be ineffective???  Just a thought.

 

It depends upon the ward.  They can be made to spring and reset or to just spring.  Rand's ward on SL's waygate sounds like it is just there (doesn't "spring") as he thinks of it possibly killing off an entire army of trollocs.... which it couldn't do if it just sprung/reset, sprung/reset.. it would be missing some of them.

 

An example of one that springs would be the one on the storeroom in the tower where Fain gets the dagger back.  It sprang when he opened the door and altered the Accepted who was keeping track of it.... it didn't however keep making the noise it made originally.

[Cillian]

 

as for the portal stones i seem to remember hearing that they were older than the AoL and AS even then didn't know a whole lot about them and only the strongest AS used them and then only rarely. also to transport shadowspawn that way you're gonna need powerful channelers and at this point, there just aren't enough (powerful) channelers on the DO's side to pull that off.

 

Some black ajah, Taim's asha'man, and the forsaken. Thats about it and not enough to make portal stones a useful option IMO.

 

Maybe the DO will get channelers from the Land Of Madmen. I know RJ said we won't see the place, but that doesn't mean they (the Madmen) won't see Randland..... :)