Tarmon Gaidin: Moiraine's Return & The Strike on Shayol Ghul

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

two things concerning the last battle have peaked my curiosity, apologies if they've already been discussed.  Its been awhile since I've personally re-read the books, but I'm going on what others have said on this forum and from vague memories.

 

#1:  i think its pretty clear at this point that moiraine WILL be making a return, however, i've always been extremely puzzled as to HOW she will make a difference(according to min's viewings, she's absolutely essential).  One possible way i can imagine her helping is by teaching rand to not put everything on his shoulders(he treated her death especially hard), by telling him that she doesn't blame him for what happened to her(which may or may not include being stilled).  My only other idea is that she will help in TRUELY bonding(putting aside dreams for power, etc.) everyone 'of the light' to him.  what are the other theories?

 

#2:  It seems that everyone is expecting a coordinated attack on shayol ghul with rand leading the charge with the male choeden kal.  However, knowing RJ, i expect something more climatic and surprising.  I expect 'the strike on shayol ghul' not to be an offensive strike, rather, it will be a rescue attempt.  As far as i can remember, there are only 3 armies/countries not tied to him in the westland; they are arad doman, the seanchan, and the borderland army(which has the leadership of the borderlands and a significant portion of their strength).  arad doman can be considered handled and the seanchan truce is a top priority for rand.  i expect him to be dealing with those issues fairly quickly.  however, while dealing with the borderlanders, i expect rand to be kidnapped by the thirteen sisters in the camp(who i firmly believe are black).  it will be at this point that TG begins.  it will either take a long time for the 13 sisters to get to shayol ghul(because they don't know how to travel and can't find someone who can) OR rand will undergo various 'tortures' by moridin to convert him to the dark.  regardless, TG will be represented by mass confusion, disorganization, destruction(trolloc armies, light forces fighting each other), and a general loss of hope(eg the Dragon not being found ANYWHERE).  As soon as cadsuane or moiraine contacts perrin or mat, they will use the taveren link to find rand.  at which point what actually happens is anyone's guess.  how does this all sound?

[Ahaz Flagg]

Just a little question, how do you expect the 13 sisters to kid nap Rand?  Rand is surrounded by Aes Sedai now, He has 3 of the strongest channelers with him.  None of the 13 sisters with the borderland armies can match Alivia or Nynaeve.  Not to mention the Asha Men.  Any theroy is great to talk about, but I fail to see how 13 Aes Sedai will ever get a chance at Rand.

 

Also, why would they need a Ta'veran link?  Rand has 4 women linked too him, of which Cdsuane knows of two, and one is always near Rand, and the other can be found real easy.

 

Cadsuane is going to teach Rand something,it says without Moraine you will fail.

 

As for Moraine, Not real sure.  But I think him seeing her, is going to make him laugh again, his list will shatter.  That will fulfil Min's vewing.

 

On the last battle, it for sure will be a giant battle, I seem to remeber eaither a wolf dream of a viewing of thousands of wolves following Perrin to battle. The wolves mention the last hunt.  RJ, when he leads us to something like that, you can be sure it will happen.

 

 

Luggard, Far Madding have no deal with Rand at all.

 

To think all the Aes Sedai with the boarderlanders are Black is very big strech, I think they are either Elidaia's or the Sisters setting on the side. There is not one PoV to suggest this at all.

 

As Lan is already heading to the last battle, The Seanchan after they attack the white tower, will have a truce with Rand, after the four rulers of the boarderland meet Rand, they will swear to him, just like the Aes Sedai. That will tie that up nice and neat. 

 

Considering that all of Rands armies, with the exception of the Band, have people who can travel with them, I do not see a big issues of The light getting to meet the Trollocs and Dreadlords coming out of the blight. 

[rd2000]

The fact that the borderland army has thirteen Aes Sedai and they are trying to hide their presence from everyone is very suspicous. Combined with the knowledge that they are looking for Rand, and won't tell anyone why it is very ominous.

[Guest durram laddel cham]

it is possible that the 13 sisters demand Rand to come alone (without channelers) or that they have more then 13 sisters. I personnaly think they are BA though.

 

On Moiraine we can just guess.

 

As for arad doman he has it as goood under his control. He only has to find ituralde(sp?). I got the impression tuon wanted make a truce with Rand. so we'll probably get a battle btween all human armies and trollocs.

[Luckers]

Just a little question, how do you expect the 13 sisters to kid nap Rand?  Rand is surrounded by Aes Sedai now, He has 3 of the strongest channelers with him.  None of the 13 sisters with the borderland armies can match Alivia or Nynaeve.  Not to mention the Asha Men.  Any theroy is great to talk about, but I fail to see how 13 Aes Sedai will ever get a chance at Rand.

 

No one is entirely sure how it will play out, though it seems almost certain that there will be a confrontation between Rand and the thirteen with the Borderlanders, and that it will result in them hurting him, as well as Bashere and Tenobia's deaths. Furthermore it seems very likely that Perrin will be required in some manner to free Rand, so kidnapping, or at least imprisonment seem highly viable.

 

Myself, I don't see it involving a trip to Shayol Goul, but thats just me.

 

On the last battle, it for sure will be a giant battle, I seem to remeber eaither a wolf dream of a viewing of thousands of wolves following Perrin to battle. The wolves mention the last hunt.  RJ, when he leads us to something like that, you can be sure it will happen.

 

Given the numbers involved it is highly unlikely that there will be one giant battle. My guess is there will be three points of contention--a force that strikes south through Tarwin's Gap and encounters Lan, before pushing on to Tar Valon. A force that moves south through the Shadows Lance and encounters Rhuarc and the forces in Arad Domon, and a force that strikes out of the Waygates on the Shadow Coast in Amadacia that will be met by Seanchan, and later forces from Tear.

 

Later on there will be a fourth point of contention, since clearly some form of fighting will occur at shayol goul.

 

it is possible that the 13 sisters demand Rand to come alone (without channelers) or that they have more then 13 sisters. I personnaly think they are BA though.

 

Well, we do know they number 13. My guess is that they were the ones who freed Taim--specifically, we know that channelers must have been involved since no non-channelers could have freed Taim without the sort of significant damage that we would have heard about, and its unlikely a Forsaken would risk themselves for someone like Taim.

 

So, they've freed Taim, the Tower splits, and so they seek out the nearest group of power as any good Aes Sedai would.

 

And its unlikely Rand would agree to that. My guess is that Rand comes with a limited guard because Cadsuane and others are involved with Semirhage, and maybe Logain with Taim by that stage. In the heat of battle Rand gets seperated.

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

I do not see Rand going anywhere alone, Mins Viewings said Perrin would need to be there for Rand two times, or everything will fail.  You realy think that RJ would do the whole kidnaped again?  I mean come on, I am not saying its impossible, but it is a realy bad strech, as well as very shoddy ploting. And it just does not seem logical.

 

Perrin needing to be there for Rand is more than likely to do with some point at the last battle.

 

I guess they could be the ones who freed Taim, except the plots would differ, Elidia sent at least 4 of those sisters too the boarderlands, and they would have had to been able to travel to free Taim. So I think that is not true at all.

 

I think what you and I see as big battles is differant, There will be hundreds of thousands involved in the last battle, while I agree there will more than likely be two or more fronts, all three will be very big.

 

Rand agreeing too a limmted guard to go visit the Boarderlanders is very big strech, I can see Cadsuane worrying over Semeriage, instead of protecting Rand and Guiding him.

 

We will see.

[DemandredFO]

Mins says AS, or channelers, will hurt him twice, I think, and perrin needs to bo there or he bites it.  This could be the fight at Shayol Ghul but I doubt it because in that case I think the viewing would show mat too.  I'd say Rand will get snatched and they are about to leave when Perrin intervenes.  I just thought of another possibility, if Bashere is a Darkfriend, that theory seem plausible, he could betray to the BA.

Bsshere:  Come with me Rand, I have something to show

Rand:  No need to come with me, insert name, I trust Bashere with my life

walk a ways

Rand:  Where is it Bashere

Bashere:  voice heavy with saddness, he's here

Rand:  Wha, a shield cuts him off and men surround him

Rand:  Bashere and Ingtar, both Darkfriends

 

Moraine is very likely severed and even healed Rand won't recognize her.  Maybe the eyes but that's it.  My guess is she will have to say like the wheel weaves as the wheel wills or something

[Ahaz Flagg]

That is plausible I guess, I still do not buy it.  But, than the reason everyone thinks Bashere is a DF is on real shaky ground. 

[aevogt]

This should be in anopther post but I'm almost certain that Bshere is not a DF.  Otherwise:

 

He wouldn't have forcibly stopped Rand from smashing the Seal that Taim brought. 

DF's wouldn't have tried to steal the seals from his tent, wounding Deria in the process.

There's also the question of why he would have sent people to kill Taim if they were both DFs. Unless he didn't know then that Taim was a DF.

 

I'm breaking my own cardinal rule about not suspecting someone with flimsy evidence but I just don't feel it.

[Luckers]

I really doubt that bashere is a Darkfriend too. I mean, if he is he's a pretty godawful one after everything he's done to assist the light.

 

I do not see Rand going anywhere alone, Mins Viewings said Perrin would need to be there for Rand two times, or everything will fail.  You realy think that RJ would do the whole kidnaped again?  I mean come on, I am not saying its impossible, but it is a realy bad strech, as well as very shoddy ploting. And it just does not seem logical.

 

I don't either, but Rand might well go there with limited protection. Say, Elza and one or two others, as well as some Maidens, Bashere and some Saldaens. It would be very easy given the speed of Tarmon Gai'don approaching to set up others having other things to do. Nynaeve and Cadsuane may be preoccupied with Semirhage, Logain with Taim etc etc.

 

 

But the fact is that we know Rand is going to be hurt again by female channelers, and that means that somehow they are going to get around his guards to do the hurting. Add that to the darkness in Bashere's future, and the fact that both he and Tenobia must die for Perrin to end up in the Broken Crown and we know that there will be some form of fighting occuring when they meet the borderlanders. And when you add that knowledge to the way that the borderlanders and the thirteen with them have hung around for so many books completely unaddressed and yet mentioned so frequently, then I think it seems very likely indeed that the second hurting will involve them specifically. Especially since i cant see any other time when Rand might be exposed to a concentrate of female channelers who would hurt him.

 

Then we have Perrin. Last we saw him he was skimming north out of Altara and into south-west Murandy. Last we saw the borderlanders they were heading south out of Andor into north-west Murandy. It all seems fairly in place, and resolves multiple plot points quickly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nynaeve and Cadsuane may be preoccupied with Semirhage, Logain with Taim etc etc.

 

Indeed, there are very plausible scenarios in which Rand would go the Borderlanders relatively alone.  Nynaeve would go to Lan if she learned of trouble, Logain and Taim are spoiling for a fight, and Cadsuane can't beat 13 sisters on her own ... she could probably escape because of her set of ter'angreal, but she wouldn't necessarily be able to stop them.  And Rand sometimes takes it in his head to go off, much like he did when he went to Toram Riatin and Caraline Damodred.  Rand does not expect a trap from the Borderlanders ... he's pretty sure they came south specifically to acknowledge him, and Bashere has all but promised that Tenobia will.  He spent a little time at Fal Dara with Aglemar.

 

On the other hand, Perrin has a lot of firepower with him.  Its not certain, of course, but it seems awfully likely that Min's viewing will be fulfilled there.  And a trap doesn't have to be "kidnapping again borrrrriiiing".  They could just plain try to kill him, and he barely manages to escape ... and Perrin has to stop them from hunting him down.  Or any of a number of variations.

[Vicious Circle]

So, Luckers, do you think the Borderland rulers are dark friends, or just unaware of the 13 sisters real allegiance?

[Vicious Circle]

I think the 13 trying to turn him would be much more interesting to read than a kidnap or kill scenarios.

[Luckers]

Personally, i think they are just unaware. Ethenielle seems a definate lightfriend via her POV, and Tenobia's too much of a bitch to actually be anything other than what she appears. The other two might be, though both seem to have a fair deal of integrity.

 

We don't know for sure of course, but ultimately i think it would be quite hard for a borderland ruler to turn to the shadow. They are too much the focus of things in a society preternaturally aware of the Shadow's threat.

[adamn]

First post ha!

 

anyway to the point ... id like to add another idea to the mix, now i am almost certain that bashere isn't a darkfriend but we all know theirs more ways than one to put someone under your control, what if the 13 sisters had some kind of control over bashere or tenobia? a hostage at home a loved one? or maybe they have some kind of control over tenobia? im not to sure on character motivation but if tenobia was put on the line what would bashere do... i think in this case bashere mite actually betray rand

[RobertAlexWillis]

We don't know for sure of course, but ultimately i think it would be quite hard for a borderland ruler to turn to the shadow. They are too much the focus of things in a society preternaturally aware of the Shadow's threat.

 

Yeah, I mean, just look at Lord Ingtar!

 

Oh wait ...

 

I mean ...

 

;D

 

Nah, but I agree, none of them is a likely candidate ... I agree with you about the origin and purpose of those 13 Aes Sedai, and I agree that the Borderlanders are ignorant of their purpose.  I'm just wondering if the trap, whatever it is, will be important enough for Demandred to stick his nose out, since I think he's behind not only the escape of Mazrim Taim, but that he ordered the 13 Black Ajah Sisters to go south with the Borderlanders, who I think he conned into going south in the first place.

[Ahaz Flagg]

First post ha!

 

anyway to the point ... id like to add another idea to the mix, now i am almost certain that bashere isn't a darkfriend but we all know theirs more ways than one to put someone under your control, what if the 13 sisters had some kind of control over bashere or tenobia? a hostage at home a loved one? or maybe they have some kind of control over tenobia? im not to sure on character motivation but if tenobia was put on the line what would bashere do... i think in this case bashere mite actually betray rand

 

I find very unlikley that Lord Bashere would betray Rand even if Tenobia was over a Trolloc Cook Pot, Bashere knows as well as anyone that world rest on Rands shoulders, if he betrayed Rand and the Shadow wins, than it would not matter about Tenobia anyways.

[rd2000]

I find it highly unlikely that any of the boderland rulers are DF's. But I do think it highly likely that most and probably all of the 13 AS with the army are BA. Remember also that one of the "great captains" rides with this army. I am looking forward to reading more of this group.

 

Lots of room for plots that interweave intricately, which is what RJ was a master of.

 

[Vambram]

I have heard this theory repeatedly that there are 13 Black Ajah aes sedai with the borderlander army that is coming to meet Rand.  But for the life of me, I have yet to read any solid evidence in the books that there really are 13 aes sedai with that arm, much less real evidence that they are Black Ajah. Soooo, am I just totally missing something? I probably am, therefore, can one of the WoT gurus here point the relevant passages out to me in the books, please?

Thank you.

[Tyrell]

In whichever prologue the borderlands rulers meet up in, they specifically comment on the ominous number of 13 aes sedai and how it relates to their purpose in a somewhat round-a-bout manner.

[Razor]

Maybe they try to slip on a set of sad,  bracelets, but with Rand's hand gone, one bracelet just slips off.  But that seems way too stupid for RJ to write.

[Majsju]

Maybe they try to slip on a set of sad,  bracelets, but with Rand's hand gone, one bracelet just slips off.  But that seems way too stupid for RJ to write.

 

Uhm, Rand would wear the collar. You know, around the neck. The bracelets are for the women.

But the bracelets are now in Rands possession, and not even he would be stupid enough to just let them lie around somewhere for anyone to pick up.

[DemandredFO]

It's in PoD, Ethenielle, I think, says five AS were with them when eight more show up.  I don't think there is much evidence if they are BA or not but we have pretty educated guesses.  Don't forget RJ said we'd see Hurin again, that should be very interesting.

I'm pretty sure some other trusted leiutenant of Rand's (Elza doesn't count) is a darkfriend, I happen to believe it's bashere, unless it's a Clan Chief or trusted Wise One.  Mainly I'm just going with the DF's can be anyone thing.  Well that's my opinion

[safwd]

I dont think any of the Borderland rulers are DFs, and im pretty sure Bashere is not. He has had way too much opportunity to do badness and hasnt. Plus i dont think he would be up for his wife getting stabbed. I have to think the Darkness Min sees is him dying, but then most times she sees someone dying it is a severed head or something more obvious then darkness.

 

As to the 13 Aes Sedai all being DF, im not sold on that. It is possible and it would answer some questions. What im having trouble with is pretty much no DF Aes Sedai knows more then 2 other DF Aes Sedai, now you have 13 together that by this point all know each other. I know if one of the Forsaken ordered it they would do it but it still has me thinking.

[Vambram]

Thank you for the reference to the prologue in PoD. I re-read it, and I can certainly see, just like the borderlander nobles do, how odd it would be for 13 aes sedai to mysteriously arrive there like they did. After reading that prologue again, I can certainly admit that the theory about them being Black Ajahs is certainly very credible, especially since Tenobia (at that time at least) has a very unfavorable belief concerning Rand.