The Eye of the World and Ishamael

[Luckers]

I think I've raised this topic before, but I can't remember if anything came of it, so I figured I'd raise it again.

 

My issue is, Ishamael sent Jain Farstrider to the Ogier with warnings about his intentions to destroy the Eye nearly twenty years ago. Then he saw to it that the Maidens found out, and let them escape south too. He mentions it to the lads frequently, and who's to say how many other trails he laid.

 

So why was he so interested in luring people to the Eye? And it seems as if it were more than just Rand--I mean, Jain delivered his message twenty years ago. The Maidens... what, three years ago. Both before Ishamael knew who Rand was.

 

And when Rand actually goes north there is no trap laid for him. Aginor and Balthemel manage to find the eye through tracking the taint in Mat, but both that he would have that traceable taint, or that Aginor or Balthemel would be free hardly seem to be something that Ishamael would have known twenty years ago. Not specifically. Especially since their reason for going was to gain control of a power source outside of the shadows control.

 

It leaves me lost. I concidered the possibility that the trap was not for Rand, but for Aginor and Balthemel, that Ishamael might have been attempting to get Aes Sedai in place to block their attempt to sieze the Eye... but whilst possible, that seems infeasible too.

 

So what do you guys think?

[TwoRiversWI]

Thanks for the post.

 

 

There was always something that bothered me about the first book. I could not put my finger on it other than it seemed to be a long adventure and then a hurry to wrap it up at the end.

 

You make valid points. I don't have an answer but I now plan a re-re-re-read of the book to pay attention to what you have said.

 

TwoRivers Born

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, I was in on it last time, but as far as I can tell, Ishamael must have had some information that we don't which basically said "You'll get a shot to take out (or turn) the Dragon at the Eye" or maybe "You'll need the Dragon to find the Eye for you".  That sort of misinformation ("Hahaha, I'm gonna blind the Eye you better go find it") could simply have been a tool to get Rand to lead him to it ... Aginor and Balthamel had to follow him there (through Mat), maybe they just beat Ishy to the punch.

 

Hmmm ... maybe there was even a trap woven around the Eye that drove anyone but Rand mad, sort of like the safeguards placed on Callandor.  I always thought it was odd that Callandor was protected  but anyone who could get to the Eye could use it ... and that would make me feel a lot better about how things went down with Aginor ... and it would explain why Ishy wanted Rand to get to it.

 

Throughout the first book Ishamael seems to have some information on the basic way things will go ... he shows the figurines of the three boys to them in their dreams, etc, etc.  So, the clues to Farstrider and the Maidens would just have been a way of making sure that, wherever Rand popped up, there would be a clue to lead him to the Eye.

 

Anyway, I know that is weak in places and unspecific in others, but its the best I can do.  I, too, would welcome greater clarity here ...

[Luckers]

Meh, its still a clearer explanation than mine.

[reyler]

The idea that the Eye was attuned to Rand alone makes sense in light of it also containing the Horn and the Dragon Banner. Since the prologue shows Ishamael had at least some level of activity in the outside world at the time Lews Therin self-immolated, he might have known that at least the banner went into the Eye. Moiraine made darn sure Rand kept the banner on him so he could declare himself and get the ball rolling; maybe Ishamael had the same sort of intent. I mean, things like capturing the Stone of Tear were prophesied for Rand to do, and though Moiraine viewed them as being signposts rather than prerequisites, what if they were in fact that? Rand declares himself and Mazrim Taim simultaneously gets thrown off his horse, that ain't coincidence. Probably herding Rand towards the Eye was part of prodding him towards embracing his role. Consider, despite the attempts to kill him, Rand seems kind of necessary to the Shadow's victory; why else try to turn him? And anyway, why would someone like Ishamael, who channels the True Source at will, give a fig for the Eye itself?

 

That was awfully disjointed and poorly argued. Hopefully somebody made some sense out of it.

[Pevin]

I agree with your main point, reyler.  My best guess is also that it was not a trap at all.  Ishamael seems to want (need??) the Dragon around, so he is helping him to fulfill his destiny. 

[cloglord]

What if it is like Moraine said, and the key to finding the eye is need.?.  Not need in defense of the pattern, but in a manner similar to TAR or Jack sparrow's compass in the PotC movies.  If you think about it there is nothing in the Greenman's garden that Ishy needed.  He didn't need the horn, the banner, of a giant untainted pool of Saidin.  Those were things that Rand needed, and his need was so great that it overcame the one vistit/person rule and the only found north of the high passes rule.  However, Ishy would need to thrart Rand, so if he lured him to the eye, then he would have shot at finding it...

 

I don't know, its fun to speculate, but I don't know if it will be helpful. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The thing is, Rand and his group probably didn't find the Eye with just "need".  After all, the same rules that said "need is the key", said that "no one can find it twice" (this is another correlation between the "need" method of finding the Eye and the "need" method the Wise Ones use ...).

 

The group was able to get to the Green Man's place because Rand channeled them there instinctively.  We don't know exactly what he wove, of course, because he doesn't, but his POV makes it pretty clear that, just as he washed Bela's fatigue away instinctively, he did something instinctive with the Power to get them to the Eye.

 

To quote:

 

The void eluded him, forming, then shivering into a thousand points of light, re-forming and shattering again, each point burning into his bones until he quivered with the pain and thought he must burst open. Light help me, I can’t go on. Light help me! He was gathering the bay’s reins to turn back, to face the Worms or anything rather than what lay ahead, when the nature of the land changed. Between one slope of a hill and the next, between crest and peak, the Blight was gone.

 

Rand's POV, TWoTW ch 49

 

Compare that to the incident with Bela, which we know to be one of the first times that Rand channeled, if not the first.

 

If Bela fell back, he would fall back, too, whateve r Moiraine and Lan had to say about it. Back where the Fade and the Trollocs were . Back where the Draghkar was. With all his heart and desperation he silently shou ted at Bela to run like the wind, silently tried to will strength into her. Run! His skin prickled, and his bones felt as if they were freezing, ready to split open. The Light help her, run! And Bela ran.

 

Rand's POV, TEoTW ch 11

 

The reason I bring that up is that if Rand could channel to get there, its likely that Ishamael could have, and that Aginor and Balthamel did, without using "need".  And while Ishamael wouldn't really need the Dragon Banner, or a pool of saidin, I could make a really good case for him needing the Horn ... if the "need" factor is like Tel'aran'rhiod (which is entirely possible) then it doesn't distinguish between good and evil "need".  So, if he really did want to get there first, he could have used "need" long before Rand was born.

 

I guess it boils down to the same thing; Ishamael wanted Rand to get to the Eye first.  To me, that bespeaks a safeguard laid in or around the Eye itself, attuned to Rand, much like the situation with Callandor.  After all, the Eye and Callandor were apparently put into their respective places by the same group of people, an ajah in the Age of Legends sense.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The group was able to get to the Green Man's place because Rand channeled them there instinctively.  We don't know exactly what he wove, of course, because he doesn't, but his POV makes it pretty clear that, just as he washed Bela's fatigue away instinctively, he did something instinctive with the Power to get them to the Eye.

 

I have a different view on how the group found the eye of the wworld. Remember that only a few who searched for the eye ever found it and that this was the only time that the eye was found this side of the Mountains. The Green Man sensed Rand's (the Dragon's) need and brought the eye to them. It was not Rand's channeling that got them their. The Two Choosen just followed the evil in Mat.  If I'm correct, that explain why the Green Man calls Rand the Dragon-he has sensed that Rand is the reincarnation of the Dragon. And if I'm correct Ismael could not have found the eye by using need and/or channeling.

[Luckers]

No, the Green Man has no control over who finds the Eye--which he himself makes clear, just as he goes on to back up Robert's position with his comments to Moiraine.

 

Furthermore, Someshta didn't call Rand the Dragon, he named him a Child of the Dragon due to his Aiel heritage and looks.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Point taken, It looks like its time to start another re-read.

[lou]

for ishmael, the eye could have simply served the purpose of exposing the dragon. up to this point in the story it could have been mat or perrin, as far as he knew.

[ignavus1223]

Ishmael could have been laying a trap, but that doesn't mean that he knows Rand had actually made it to the eye.  He's not all-knowing.  It's possible he lost them when they went into the Ways and they arrived at the Eye before he discovered where they were.

[Guest leebarr]

I think that Ishamael needed Rand to find the Eye. Either Ish needed the dragon reborn running loose in the world or he wanted to kill him to became (can not think of the name) the big man of the forsaken.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

he wanted to kill him to became (can not think of the name) the big man of the forsaken.

 

He already was Ne'bliss(sp).

[Tyrell]

No he wasn't.

[lou]

tyrell is correct. all indications are that at this point in the story, the DO had intended on turning the dragon and naming him na'bliss. the title was up for grabs until moridans re-emergance.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ishamael was leaving clues that would lead Rand to the Eye, even though he didnt know who Rand was yet he was leaving clues as to where the eye was so the Dragon Reborn would find it

[Luckers]

tyrell is correct. all indications are that at this point in the story, the DO had intended on turning the dragon and naming him na'bliss. the title was up for grabs until moridans re-emergance.

 

Actually no Lou, Cubarey is correct--at the time in question Ishamael was indeed entirely in charge of the Shadow, and had been since the early days of the war of the Shadow, which by definition is Nae'blis.

 

Now, the Forsaken did indicate fears that they thought the Dark One might indeed raise Rand Nae'blis should he turn, but aside from the fact that that these were the opinions of the Forsaken, and not of the Dark One whose actual opinion is really the only one that matters, these fears were only spoken after Ishamaels death and are thus moot.

 

And personally, my belief is that had Rand actually turned his soul would have been expunged so quickly that it makes no difference. The Dark One has plenty of administrators, but the chance of his arch-nemisis turning back to the light is simply to great. But meh, thats also not really relevant.

[HoppyQ]

This is a good question Luckers.  I hadn't really thought about it before.  Is it possible that Ishy was just trying to push Rand into becoming the Dragon too soon?  It seems to me that Morainne didn't want to go to the eye yet but did after hearing about the warnings.  I always thought that her original intention was to "train" Rand or whoever so that he would be better prepared to become the Dragon.  Maybe Ishy knew or feared this as a possibility and was pushing the situation because he wanted force Rand to take on the job before he was ready, thus making him an easier target for him.

[elmis]

I think Ishamael did it because he wanted Rand to become the Dragon. Helping prophecy along the way, smoothing the way, kinda like I expect Verin is doing. He's been waiting to kill (or turn) the Dragon for near 3000 years, would make anyone get a little impatient. ;)

 

I'm not sure if he has any clairvoyant skills, but I'm positive the dark side at least have someone in that department. So my guess would be that he saw the signs coming together and set his play in motion. Remember he killed Jarna Malari when he found out that she assigned the Black Ajah to find and kill baby-dragon, and put the High Council of the Black Ajah to the question, or near enough, for thinking they killed Sierin Vayu.

 

Further, in TGH, when he has realized who is the Dragon of the trio, he commands his minions to kill the other two, but not harm Rand.

 

To me it all points to Ishamael wanting baby-dragon to grow up, and ultimately be defeated, or turned to the shadow, by his own hands.

 

EDIT: Also the Myrddraal that corners rand in EotW doesn't kill him, probably on strict orders from Ishamael. Though the Myrddraal smiles, so it could be the first appearance of Shaidar Haran. (Personally though, I don't buy RJ's explanation regarding the other Myrddraal that smiled to Jaichim Carridin (Bors). I tend to believe the lore about Myrddraal not smiling got put in LoC, to make the real Shaidar Haran seem more hardcore.)

[Vicious Circle]

Maybe that's the opening move of the strange game Moridin is playing. First get Fisherking to use the Eye of The World, second get him to declare himself Dragon Reborn, then try to turn him to the Dark.