Gholam, Balefire

[avacraft]

Since most weaves just dissipate when they hit the gholam, would balefire??? 

 

Ohh, and would balefire destroy Mats ter'angreal or would it dissipate???

[Dragon21]

I have no basis for this, but I think balefire would affect a gholam.

 

I think it would not destroy Mat's medallion though. Channeling is channeling, even if it is balefire. So I think he would be protected.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Lemagrag]

Since most weaves just dissipate when they hit the gholam, would balefire??? 

 

Ohh, and would balefire destroy Mats ter'angreal or would it dissipate???

 

In both cases, weaves dissipate. Balefire is a weave. I see no reason to believe Balefire would affect either the gholam or Mat's medallion.

[Luckers]

The issue is that balefire might not, in itself, be a weave. It may well be an effect of a weave like lightning or gateways.

 

The basis of this suggestion is that balefire always originates from a point very near the channeler, and shoots out from there, and always there. All of the power seems to come from that place, and that seems to be the focus of the weave. Theoretically its possible that the balefire itself is a side-effect of whatever the weave is doing, and therefore the weave will not touch the dissipation field, and would work against both the Gholam or Mat and Cadsuane's ter'angreal.

[bjclinton]

Additionally, balesfire destroys whatever is in its path right before it actually hits it....the item or thing ceases to exist the moment before it is touched.

based on what luckers mentioned above w/ the weaves, in addition to how we are to understand the moment at which balefire works, makes me believe that it might be possible

[BKVMC]

I  would like to  see the  Gholam  against a male channeler  knee jerk  reactions of  male channelers  seem alot different  than the female  aes sedai.  it doesnt say  what the  Ladys  tried to channel at the  golem  but  judging from history  i  imagine they  tried to  hold it with Air  somehow,  at least that seems to be  the kneejerk reactions i have  seen most  females use.

 

Males  when faced by a  threat  seem to go for the weaves that  can damage you as a  by product of the weave.  Ie  blowing up the ground  etc.

 

I  think  balefire could affect the gholam  for the same reasons  luckers said.

[safwd]

I may be wrong on this, it was many books ago, and it isnt really this topic. But wasnt Mat wearing the foxhead medallion when Rahvin burned him to a crisp?

[YoungKing]

I think if balefire could kill a gholam, it would have been done long ago during the AoL/WoP.

 

Personally I believe that balefire is a weave itself, but it wouldn't kill a gholam anyway.

 

YK.

[trakand_01]

I may be wrong on this, it was many books ago, and it isnt really this topic. But wasnt Mat wearing the foxhead medallion when Rahvin burned him to a crisp?

 

Yes he was, but wasnt it the lightening that Rahvin created that killed Mat and Aviendha, rather than the channelling itself? I think that goes back to what Luckers said - the actual channelling, as Elayne / Adeleas etc found out on the way to Ebou Dar, can't touch him, but using the EFFECT of the channelling, eg throwing a stone at him using air, or creating lightening which strikes down towards him, can. I'm pretty sure that's how Rahvin killed him (he also was aiming at Rand i think).

 

I  would like to  see the  Gholam  against a male channeler  knee jerk  reactions of  male channelers  seem alot different  than the female  aes sedai.  

 

Males  when faced by a  threat  seem to go for the weaves that  can damage you as a  by product of the weave.  Ie  blowing up the ground  etc.

 

This is quite true i agree with you. i think perhaps its something to do with the fact that the 'women' tend to be AS, and as such they cannot (unless they are BA) use the power as a weapon unless to retaliate / defend themselves. I'm not sure what the criteria for 'defending yourself' is, but it's likely that you have to be personally attacked rather than simply in the room with someone / something dangerous. Granted the women who fought the Gholam before Mat ran upstairs were Kin, not AS.

 

Alternatively it could simply be that they hadnt been taught anything that could do that much damage, or they were too weak-kneed to think of hurting this 'man' or by the time they realised he wasnt a normal man and air wasnt going to cut it, it was too late.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The issue is that balefire might not, in itself, be a weave. It may well be an effect of a weave like lightning or gateways.

 

The basis of this suggestion is that balefire always originates from a point very near the channeler, and shoots out from there, and always there. All of the power seems to come from that place, and that seems to be the focus of the weave. Theoretically its possible that the balefire itself is a side-effect of whatever the weave is doing, and therefore the weave will not touch the dissipation field, and would work against both the Gholam or Mat and Cadsuane's ter'angreal.

 

That is, indeed, the issue ... and we just don't know the answer for sure.  Personally, I lean toward the whole thing being a weave, and so balefire would dissipate when it touched either a Gholam or Mat or Cadsuane when they are wearing the ter'angreal.  The reason I lean that way is that if there were such a straightforward way to kill a Gholam, the Forsaken's comments about Aginor being a madman for creating them, and RJ's comment about the Forsaken being in trouble if one of them turned, wouldn't fit.

 

They were made to assassinate Aes Sedai ... and balefire was fairly common knowledge during the War of the Power.

 

But, again, thats not ironclad proof.

[Luckers]

Mmm. I'm inclined to agree with Robert about that. Though the ceasation of the use of Balefire happened early in the war--possibly before the gholam were even created--and it seemed to have left some fairly indelible impression on both sides about not using it. Its possible it simply did not even occur to anyone to think about it.

 

Keep in mind too that the Forsaken actually seem pretty clueless as to how the whole dissipation of weaves occur.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, I bet Aginor at least knew exactly how it works.  I know the Myrddraal were an accident, but the Gholam were deliberate.  But you're right, there is definitely an argument to be made either way.  About the only way we'll know for sure is if somebody tries to balefire the Gholam, or Brandon says RJ's notes have an answer.

[Luckers]

I don't know eh. Aginor's always struck me as a bit of a goof. Most of what he achieves he almost seems to stumble into by accident.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think Aginor comes across that way because we never see him in his element.  He was a research scientist, and apparently a good one (he got the third name).  As Jordan said, "Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools ... Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century."

[Gentled Ben]

I  would like to  see the  Gholam  against a male channeler  knee jerk  reactions of  male channelers  seem alot different  than the female  aes sedai.  it doesnt say  what the  Ladys  tried to channel at the  golem  but  judging from history  i  imagine they  tried to  hold it with Air  somehow,  at least that seems to be  the kneejerk reactions i have  seen most  females use.

 

Males  when faced by a  threat  seem to go for the weaves that  can damage you as a  by product of the weave.  Ie  blowing up the ground  etc.

 

I  think  balefire could affect the gholam  for the same reasons  luckers said.

 

I disagree...

Kiruna at Dumai's Wells: Fireballs

Joline and Teslyn vs. Seanchan bounty hunters in KoD: fireballs

Egwene and Aviendha vs. Shaido in Cairhien: lightning and earth eruptions

Nynaeve vs. Moghedhien: Shield

Verin vs. Graendal: Shield

Semirhage vs. Rand: Shield (as a command) and fireball

Lanfear vs. Rand: Debilitating pain

Elza vs. Osan'gar: (HUGE) fireball

6 members of Black Ajah vs. Andoran soldiers during Elayne's rescue:

Lightning & Fireball

Aes Sedai bonded to Logain's Asha'man in Tear vs. horde of trollocs and myrddraal: Lightning and Fireball

Moghedien vs. Nynaeve (round 2): Balefire

Moiraine vs. Aginor: I don't know what the hell *that* bizarre weave was, but it wasn't holding him with flows of Air, or at least, it was much more than that.

Moiraine vs. trollocs in Two Rivers: ball lightning and fireball

Moiraine vs. Trollocs and myrdraal near Shadar Logoth:

wall of fire and rolling earth

Moiraine vs. Be'lal: Balefire

Moiraine vs. Darkhounds: balefire

Alanna and Verin vs. trollocs and myrddraal in the Two Rivers: exploding rocks, fireball

 

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I think it's enough to show that the knee-jerk reaction of female channelers is not to hold with flows of Air.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tenshin_Xo]

As far as destroying the Gholam, it seems to me there are a couple ways to accomplish that fact.  It seems as though you could starve the things, or encasement.  Balefire though, I don't think that might work.  We have evidence of balefire being ineffective in the books, like when Rand used Callandor to cleave his way throught the effect.  Could a similar proprty be imbued in the Gholam?

[BKVMC]

yes but why would they shield a  man who is suddenly there and why  would they  throw fireballs at a man who appeared in their midst the examples you  give are either  the sisters  facing  shadowspawn or things they  think are  shadowspawn or situations they  put themselves  into  knowing what  their planned outcomes  might be.even  ispan  in that same book who is BA and not restrained   by oaths uses  air to  batter  people away from her.

 

The Kin  nor elayne  or any aes sedai  up to that point even know what a Gholam is they would have assumed he was a man not a shadowspawn  your examples are comparing apples and oranges. 

 

And the forsaken  they shouldnt even be on the same list as  the channelers of the current age they are an  anomoly.

[Gentled Ben]

What, Moghedien is less of a female because she's from the AoL? By your own example, Ispan "batters" with Air, not holds. Air can be an effective weapon, as seen by Cyndane's decapitation of that DF just before she heads to the Cleansing. If you're whole criteria is actually "how does someone react if they don't think they're in danger," then please provide examples of these awesome killing weaves bandied about by Asha'man who do not feel threatened. Do you perceive them as killing anything they see as soon as they see it? If so, on what do you base that perception? If not, then why would they perceive a threat from a Gholam when no female channeler would? If the Asha'Man does not feel threatened, does not sense that he is in any danger at all, then he is no more lethal than an Aes Sedai. If both an Asha'Man and an Aes Sedai feel threatened, they are both likely to respond with a killing weave. Granted, the Ahsa'Man's weaves might be more effective, but dead is dead all the same.

[Tyrell]

Ben, if you'll allow me to call you that without you hunting me down, killing me and burning my corpse. The problem with most of the examples you gave was that they were not "kneejerk" reactions which was what the person you were responding to was talking about, they mostly occurred in combat situations and where the channeler in question expected to be facing hostility, also the majority of them wern't by run of the mill Aes Sedai.

 

Anything the forsaken do can be taken out straight away, because they're, well, the forsaken afterall - they're evil, they like violence.

 

Anything that cites a shield as a reaction to attack used goes out too since a shield is used in a fight between two channelers where anything else wouldn't really be very effective ( yes you can use killing weaves against another channeler, but they can shield your ass while you're busy dooing that, cut your weaves, fight back etc. ).

 

Basically anything that isn't a surprise goes out the window to.

 

What the person you were responding to was talking about, I believe, was a situation like this -

 

Man jumps out -> Aes Sedai grabs him in air.

 

Gholam Jumps out -> Aes Sedai sees a man jumping out, goes to grab him, and gets her head ripped off.

 

whereas

 

Man jumps out -> crazy living weapon Asha'man hits him with a lightning bolt right where it hurts.

 

Gholam jumps out -> Ditto.

 

Although I'm not entirely sure that most Asha'man would go for an insta kill weave, or something with a chance of getting near the Gholam, I would agree that they are much more inclined to voilence because of their conditioning, than their female counterparts.

[Gentled Ben]

I see what you're saying, and yet, the reactions of the Aes Sedai against the trolloc horde in Tear *is* their knee-jerk reaction. One moment, they're doing whatever they're doing, and the next moment, 100,000 trollocs jump out at them. Same deal with the BA in Andor. They're prancing along when all of a sudden, a gateway opens before them (and they must be wondering wtf, as they don't know how to Travel), and out pops an army. Still, those are hordes and not individuals, so the perceived threat is probably a lot greater. Nevertheless, I really see few instances in the books where women react by holding with flows of air. It seems to be a conscious decision as often as not, but regardless, surely numerous male channelers have had their shot at a gholam, yet apparently, none lived to tell the tale. I would be surprised if balefire or lightning will kill them, I mean, don't you think that Aginor would have tested that out on them when he created them?

[Luckers]

As far as destroying the Gholam, it seems to me there are a couple ways to accomplish that fact.  It seems as though you could starve the things, or encasement.  Balefire though, I don't think that might work.  We have evidence of balefire being ineffective in the books, like when Rand used Callandor to cleave his way throught the effect.   Could a similar proprty be imbued in the Gholam?

 

Without knowing precisely what allowed Rand to slice that flow of balefire, or even that it was balefire, its hard to say whether the Gholam may have it. Frankly i think it unlikely--only two options occur to me to explain that incident, one, that Callandor is actually made from a type of Cuendillar, and two, that Rand did his untrained stumble onto another miraculous new weave that can slice balefire.

 

Or three, it wasn't balefire. None of these options avail the Gholam much. In the end it comes down to the question of whether or not balefire is a weave, or an effect. If its a weave the gholams safe, if its an effect the gholams not.

[bjclinton]

As ive mentioned in earlier posts, i'm of the belief that Balefire is not an actual weave, rather the result of a weave...big difference as it relates to this topic.

 

I did a little research in some of the earlier books when BF was first used and if you refer back to the chapter in TSR when Rand first uses BF on the 3 Darkhounds that were sent by Rhavin to kill him, you'll see, what I consider, to be proof of this.

 

Moiraine walks in as soon as the DHs are destroys and warns Rand of the use of Balefire. She even claims that she can "still feel the residue of its use"

 

Since neither male nor female channellers can feel the residue of their counterparts weaves, the only logical thought has to be that:

 

1. She has some type of TA that allows her to sense Saidin's weaves (VERY unlikely, since we've seen no evidence in the entire series that this is the case....not to mention that it would be a bit of a random thing to drop into the final book this late in the game.)

 

2. What she sensed wasn't a weave at all, but instead, the result of what the weave produced: Balefire.

 

Assuming that #2 is correct, then since balefire is not a weave, rather the result of one, then we can also assume that much like lightening, or anyone weapons created as a weave and used as a weapon, can in fact destroy a Gholam.

 

That leaves the only small problem of actually containing the Gholam long enough to hit it with BF.

[Gentled Ben]

Since neither male nor female channellers can feel the residue of their counterparts weaves, the only logical thought has to be that:

 

As I understand it, that's precisely how the Red Ajah hunts down male channelers--by sensing the residue of their weaves and thereby, tracking them. It might be a Talent, but it is possible.

[callandor]

i belive that balefire is a weave, but it just starts from the point of origin and goes outwards from there. i belive it wouldnt affect mat or the gholam.

 

Moiraine walks in as soon as the DHs are destroys and warns Rand of the use of Balefire. She even claims that she can "still feel the residue of its use"

 

Since neither male nor female channellers can feel the residue of their counterparts weaves, the only logical thought has to be that

 

she can feel the rseidue of the weave like Elayns said she didnt want the damane seeing the weave for traveling if she just let it disappear. thats why she unweaved it. since Bf is so powerful, Moirane probably could still feel it even though it was saidin.

 

[YoungKing]

Something to think about i that balefire is not at al natural. I don't think it is valid to compare it to lightning or the like, because that is a natural phenomena. You can weave whatever and have lightning come as a result, but balefire needs to be created as a whole. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. I would also assume that a fireball would be a weave that travels if shot or thrown. I'd think if that is the case it would be the same with balefire.

 

The fact remains that if there was a known way to kill a gholam, it would have been done long ago. I point to Mat.

 

YK.