The Male Forsaken Don't Have a Single Good Excuse Between Them

[dlan4327]

I should be in bed not watching Quarterlife, but since I'm up... I've always felt, since reading the BWB, that all of the Male Forsaken's excuses for turning to the dark were inevitably about being Jealous of Lews Therin. From memory all the boys baring Asmodean were jealous of the Dragon so they went Emo in a big bad way. Oh Mr Dragon is so popular. Boo. Friggin. Hoo.  For the record Asmodean was even worse; a composer who never got recognised so he decides to kill millions because he figured if he was immortal he could make it as a musician. What. The. Hell. The women on the other hand. Semi was outed as a sadist and was given the choice of stilling or being bound by the oath rod against violence. A much more understandable, if not moral, viewpoint. Grand saw the world would never live up to  her high standards of pure living, Mogh was simply a bitchy banker with a dark side who saw an opportunity for more power. Messana was turned down for a research job so she decided to give her bosses the big middle finger. Ultimately this leaves Lanfear as the only woman to succumb to what can almost be called jealousy over LT. Ultimately though it was more about power. So what do you think? I personally believe all the male forsaken had pathetic reasons for turning and it just demonstrates a far weaker character than the women. Keep in mind it's late.  :-[   

[Shard]

Not all the men were Jealous/Envious of the LTT to turn to the Dark side. Ishamel thought it was his destiny to be the DO's champion. Aginor wanted to do experiments on people and only the DO could provide for that. I don't remember what Balthamal's beef was but I'm pretty sure it wasn't LTT. I think only Demandred, Sammeal and Bel'lal were jealous/envious of LTT.

 

Though coming from us who are "moral" there really isn't any good excuse to do evil things like killing millions of people now is there? Even Asmo was fickle in that nature, wasn't there a rhyme or something about him switching sides constantly?

[elmis]

Would have been cool if at least one of them was turned with the 13 Myrddraal / 13 Aes Sedai trick. Demandred would have been so much cooler if that was his story.

 

Best pals with Lews Therin, then sadly he was captured and turned into his evil nemesis.

[Jelly]

I agree with you, dlan. They have ridiculous excuses. From their perspetive though...they would still have done, or tried to, some of the things they did. They might as well get power and immortality for it. A win-win situation.

[Shard]

Would have been cool if at least one of them was turned with the 13 Myrddraal / 13 Aes Sedai trick. Demandred would have been so much cooler if that was his story.

 

Best pals with Lews Therin, then sadly he was captured and turned into his evil nemesis.

 

Do we even know for sure if one wasn't? I have to go and read the BWB to see but I think one or two didn't really go into why they switched sides.

[Dragon21]

Jealousy and lust for power seem to be common themes for people turning "evil" throughout history.

 

The forsaken males seem to mirror real life pretty well in that regard.

[Duneflayer]

people make mistakes every day some biger than others

[aevogt]

All the reasons why a particular foresaken turned that are given in the books are excellent reasons because they are very much human reasons.

 

Haven't you ever loved or hated someone to the exclusion of all else.  I have, both sides of that coin.  For RJ to say the demandred hated LTT so much that he turned to the shadow is, to me, just fantastic.  He felt he was superior to LTT

in every way but cound not get the recognition he felt he deserved.

 

That's not just telling us what happened, that's telling us why.  It makes the evil characters in the book more than characters.  They have flaws.  They have desires and hopes (evil ones to be sure) but they are there.  To me, they sound like people, not characters. 

 

That's good storytelling.

[elmis]

I was kinda bummed when I read the reasons in the BWB, to me they were kinda simple. Not all, but some. Demandred, Sammael and Mesaana specially.

 

I'm putting the last name in there, because of the 'she taught them all in the end!' quote. Seems like like a

to me.

[Gentled Ben]

I like the reasons stated in the BWB. I know that in my own experience, I've made some really poor, selfish decisions which sometimes caused others pain or sorrow based on no better criteria than the assumption that it would be fun or feel good. Some of the Forsaken seem to have reflected upon the consequences of their decision little more than I did, and like some of the other posters have stated, that makes them seem more human to me. They're just really selfish, every last one of them. They need no better reason to sell their souls than the fact that in one way or another, the decision was all about them. As long as they think they're going to get what they want, that's all the reason they need, whether they want revenge, sex, power, fortune, or whatever.

[Shaidar]

This is the only excuse they need - http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1438&Category=RandlandPhilosophy.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I actually kind of like Asmo's story.  Many of RJ's ideas come from the myths and legends of this world.  There are several legends about musicians and various other artists who sold their souls to the devil in order to obtain great tallent.  Asmo's story is kind of along the same lines and because the WOT characters are meant to be the origins of many of our legends perhaps Asmo is meant to be the origin of of those types of legends.

[DuDZiK]

I have a general question to no one in particular:

 

We're talking about people who freely chose to forsake goodness and willingly serve evil. Were we expecting people to have good reasons to do so? When people choose to fall into 'evil' or just commit an act that is 'evil', is it not almost always out of spite, greed, envy, hate, anger, ambition, or any other motivation not usually considered as 'good excuses'?

 

Be'Lal, Sammael, and Demandred all chose to side with evil not only because they disliked or were jealous of Lews Therin, but because they were jealous of anyone having power over them, because they were greedy and ambitious, because they were arrogant and spiteful, because their sense of morality said that they should be able to have what they want, when they want it no matter the cost. If they were simply envious of Lews Therin or simply disliked him, but had a different moral character they would not have been willing to embrace evil to get what they wanted.

 

Everything of their character and personality that lead them to embrace evil is reflected in their hatred of Lews Therin. They would have resented anyone having more power than them, and likely they would have disliked Lews Therin anyways even if he was under them, for his moral character would have rubbed against their own. Their hatred of Lews Therin is but a symptom of the larger reasons why they chose to serve the Dark One.

[bjclinton]

Would have been cool if at least one of them was turned with the 13 Myrddraal / 13 Aes Sedai trick. Demandred would have been so much cooler if that was his story.

 

 

couldn't agree more.....i'm really dissapointed that we haven't seen this yet! would have made darkfriends and myrddrall so much more fearsome to actually see this happening.