To Live You Must Die

[purplemonster]

  Ok this has annoyed me for some time, but why does everyone think Rand will have a body swap.

 

  it has always been my assumption that Rand and Alivia will both use the choden kol without the keys an destryoy the DO then Nynaeve will and (healer asha man) will link and heal Rand from death.

[Dragon21]

There are some of us who don't go for the body swap theory. :)

[BKVMC]

IMO  there will be  no body swapping :)  but who knows  we will find  out in  2009 !

 

O and there will be no female using the  female access key unless someone can repair it :)

[YoungKing]

I've always been under the assumption that Lew Therin isn't dead, therefor he is th one to die, so Rand can live. It says the "Dragon's" blood on Shayol Ghul, not the DR's. Maybe I'm trying a bit too hard but you never know. Personally I think the whole body swap thing is a load, but that's just me.

 

YK.

[CUBAREY]

Death can not be healed. Even the DO has to put the Choosen into a new body. My belief goes in the same line as Youngking's Rand will bleed but it will be LTT that dies.

[Tyrell]

Just FYI there's only one Choedan Kal left, the male one.

[Saidar]

First of all the female version of Choedan Kal was destroyed while cleansing Saidin.

 

And I'm not for the stupid body swap idea neither. There are 2 souls in Rands body. LLT and Rand. LLT dies or Rand dies. The one who wins lives. And if LLT wins the world will be destroyed because he's already crazy.

[Mr Ares]

And I'm not for the stupid body swap idea neither. There are 2 souls in Rands body. LLT and Rand. LLT dies or Rand dies. The one who wins lives. And if LLT wins the world will be destroyed because he's already crazy.

There are not two souls in Rand's body, there is one. There are two personalities, but only one soul. Why do people struggle with this idea that souls are reborn with new personalities?

 

I've always been under the assumption that Lew Therin isn't dead, therefor he is th one to die, so Rand can live. It says the "Dragon's" blood on Shayol Ghul, not the DR's. Maybe I'm trying a bit too hard but you never know.

LTT is dead, we have been told this (and shown it in the prologue to the first book). And how do you expect him to bleed blood he doesn't have?

 

Now, all of you are welcome to try and come up with a better theory than the body swap. But it was made as an answer to all the outstanding prophecies concerning Rand, not just one or two. Here is Lucker's post on the issue: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,14029.msg393167.html#msg393167 Now, I trust you see why it is popular as a theory? Even if you don't agree.

[Paviel]

Of course, Rand's death could be like Mat's: Maybe they could stab him to death with a dagger and then balefire the dagger...

[blitzkrieg]

Of course, Rand's death could be like Mat's: Maybe they could stab him to death with a dagger and then balefire the dagger...

I don't see that working.  If they balefire the dagger then yes rand will "come back to life" but now technically he didn't die, he wasn't stabbed and he didn't bleed out, now we're back to square one.  Just to go on a rant...remember when Rand first entered the world of dreams in the flesh and he started to turn into LTT?  Does anyone think this could have an impact on how he must die to live.  I believe it has something to do with LTT getting out of his head.  He is two people, we've seen this.  Min had a viewing about the two of...him.  I think her viewing falls in with this and will be the determining factor on what happens in the last battle. 

[DuDZiK]

Perhaps while in Rhuidean, Moiraine learned of a reason why she must go through the twisted red door ter'angreal. Perhaps she knew it had something to do with either saving Rand's life, or bringing him back from the dead/finding him a new body.

 

I mean I am assuming that there is a reason why Moiraine thought she must go in the doorway rather than just stabbing Lanfear in the back of the neck and severing her spine, or something.

[stoper]

Perhaps while in Rhuidean, Moiraine learned of a reason why she must go through the twisted red door ter'angreal. Perhaps she knew it had something to do with either saving Rand's life, or bringing him back from the dead/finding him a new body.

 

I mean I am assuming that there is a reason why Moiraine thought she must go in the doorway rather than just stabbing Lanfear in the back of the neck and severing her spine, or something.

No, Moiraine did it only because of that moment, to save Rand from Lanfear.

"There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear. The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next time we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Talamon and were her devoted lover."

[Feral]

I think the body swap theory is the one that covers everything best. It explains why RJ created Rand's "conection" with Moridin (which would otherwise seem kinda pointless), how he can live yet die, and (as someone pointed out in another thread) how Aviendha's babies could be descibed as "odd".

[stoper]

Isn't Moridin's body some kind of infected with saa, because of TP?

And if this body-swap theory is right, does that mean Rand will fight TGD with his crippled body and some sort of blind?

[DuDZiK]

No, Moiraine did it only because of that moment, to save Rand from Lanfear.

"There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear. The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next time we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Talamon and were her devoted lover."

 

That's what she explained to Rand, but she also made him think she was dead when she was not. Perhaps she also knew that Rand must think she was dead in order for something important to happen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps she also knew that Rand must think she was dead in order for something important to happen.

 

Yeah, she wanted to make sure that he and Lan didn't come to try to rescue her.

[Luckers]

To be frank, even I don't nessasarily like the body swap idea, yet nevertheless it remains the only theory that adequately answers all the requirements set down by prophecy. There are other options that fulfil one or two of those prophecies, and yet are blocked by a third--which, if you read that link that Mr Ares posted you'll see is why I first suggested the theory.

 

But, for seperate clarification, Lews Therin can't die unless Rand dies. They are the same soul, and the only way to solve the issues between them is by reintergrating the two personalities. To remove Lews Therin's facet personality from the soul, even if it were possible, would be destructive to that soul, tearing it apart, and i don't see how any soul could survive that.

 

Of course, Rand's death could be like Mat's: Maybe they could stab him to death with a dagger and then balefire the dagger...

 

Mmm. I concider this to be the next most likely possibility, though it is not as strong as the bodyswap in terms of implications in the prophecy. And there are conflictions too, for instance... prophecy describes Rand as 'he who is dead, yet lives'. It is concurrent, occuring at the same moment--Rand is both dead, and still alive. Now if Sanderson uses balefire to explain this, I could swallow it, but right here and now the description seems ill matched. Balefire removes something, and then completely replaces it, it is one, then the other, not concurrent.

 

Moreover, how does this allow for people to be convinced Rand is dead. Egwene's dream makes it clear that whilst they mourn Rand still lies dying from whatever occured--at least it does if it actually relates to Rand, which i concede is not set in stone, though the close connection to the other three prophecies refering to the same thing suggest it does--yet balefire is instantaneous, and even with angreal the channeler could not have waited very long to employ it or else Rand's death would have been premenant.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

and even with angreal the channeler could not have waited very long to employ it or else Rand's death would have been premenant.

 

Well when Rand blasts Rahvin with the help of a small angreal its a considerable time after Avi, Mat, et. al. where blasted (several minutes). If Rand's killer is blasted with the male chaldon Kar (sp) by a strong channeler (Logain) the time period between Rand'as death and resurrection could be quite long.

[stoper]

Perhaps she also knew that Rand must think she was dead in order for something important to happen.

Yeah, she wanted to make sure that he and Lan didn't come to try to rescue her.

Moiraine is bound to the three oaths and in typically AS's way she made him think she's dead without lying him:

"...but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear."

But she also wrote him:

"I hope that Egwene and Aviendha survived umharmed. You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."

and if that's not the truth, it woud be a lie. Am I right?

BTW does the oaths include letters?  ::)

[Luckers]

Quote:

 

and even with angreal the channeler could not have waited very long to employ it or else Rand's death would have been premenant.

 

Well when Rand blasts Rahvin with the help of a small angreal its a considerable time after Avi, Mat, et. al. where blasted (several minutes). If Rand's killer is blasted with the male chaldon Kar (sp) by a strong channeler (Logain) the time period between Rand'as death and resurrection could be quite long.

 

No, it can't. The damage to the pattern would be irreprable. Yes, the time constraint might be exteneded using a sa'angreal, but given the current instability of the fabric of the Age Lace.... I suspect even Callandor would be pushing things.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To be frank, even I don't nessasarily like the body swap idea, yet nevertheless it remains the only theory that adequately answers all the requirements set down by prophecy.

 

That depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.

 

;D

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[purplemonster]

Where does it say the female Choedan kal was destroyed the only thing that was destroyed was the access key that allowed you to touch the cohedan kal with out dieing i just checked both books WH and CoT and it doesnt say anything about the female choedan kal being destroyed but that the time of illusion over

 

PS whats the GWG or wutever its called

[Tyrell]

The time of illusion is over - the thingie in the hill went bye bye. The orb cracked or something IIRC, its very late though, not thinking well.

[Baldar]

Where does it say the female Choedan kal was destroyed the only thing that was destroyed was the access key that allowed you to touch the cohedan kal with out dieing i just checked both books WH and CoT and it doesnt say anything about the female choedan kal being destroyed but that the time of illusion over

 

PS whats the GWG or wutever its called

 

The female Choedan Kal in Tremalking melted while cleansing saidin. Read KoD, chapter 22 again.

 

"The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow. It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this . . . this illusion"-she laughed the word bitterly- "we call the world."

[Luckers]

To be frank, even I don't nessasarily like the body swap idea, yet nevertheless it remains the only theory that adequately answers all the requirements set down by prophecy.

 

That depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.

 

;D

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I don't think i even used the word 'is'. :p

 

Where does it say the female Choedan kal was destroyed the only thing that was destroyed was the access key that allowed you to touch the cohedan kal with out dieing i just checked both books WH and CoT and it doesnt say anything about the female choedan kal being destroyed but that the time of illusion over

 

PS whats the GWG or wutever its called

 

Aside from what Baldar mentioned, its also confirmed by Alviarin that the female Choedan Kal on Tremalking melted.

 

The BWB, which is what i assume you meant, stands for the Big White Book. Properly its name is 'The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time'. Its basically a compendium of information about the series, and contains some interesting comments--especially about the Age of Legends, the Breaking and Hawkwings time. It was written by Teresa Patterson in concert with RJ, and when it was first published in America it was... well, a big white book. Its also called The Guide, and the Book with the Bad Pictures.