3 men talking . . . Perrin looking.

[Majsju]

RJ has been quite consequent when it comes to bringing up characteristic noses over and over again, Olver, Faile, Taim, Demandred...That Perrin would completely fail to notice such a distinct feature on a person he just might think is important paying attention to...Nah, ain't happening.

[Ahaz Flagg]

RJ has been quite consequent when it comes to bringing up characteristic noses over and over again, Olver, Faile, Taim, Demandred...That Perrin would completely fail to notice such a distinct feature on a person he just might think is important paying attention to...Nah, ain't happening.

 

Majsju, makes a great point.  One thing we all love about RJ, is his very descriptive writing.  No way he could or would leave out something like that

[cloglord]

Believe what you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that RJ never describes all aspects of every character that he writes, and in different descriptions he has often offered up different bits than he did in earlier descriptions.  Sometimes a nose is described, sometimes not. 

 

Maj, thanks for coming up with the descriptions of Dem's clothes, but I fail to see the inconsistency, Dem likes lace, but found it too frilly on Osangar.  Some days I feel like dressing up, some days I don't.  Maybe Perrin caught Demandred on his way to a ball, and the descriptions you gave are days when the forsaken were going buisness casual. 

 

 

RJ has been quite consequent when it comes to bringing up characteristic noses over and over again

 

I'll bet you 10 bucks, or (7.5 euros ;)) that I can find at least 10 times that RJ describes Faile, and doesn't mention her characteristic nose.

 

I'm sorry ... is your point that because not every person with a big nose is Demandred, the guy in Tel'aran'rhiod must be Demandred?       

 

Nope, my point is that not every guy with a little grey in his hair is Ravhin, no matter how hard you want to believe it.  Okay, Dem has a big nose, and the man in TAR wasn't attributed a big nose.  Ravhin is described as being ridiculously good looking, why did Perrin pass that up if the man is question is indeed Ravhin?

 

[Gentled Ben]

Maybe Perrin, like many straight men, doesn't give much thought to whether or not another man is strikingly handsome. In my experience (as a straight man), it comes as an afterthought, if at all. Women are quick to say (and likely think), "Wow, she's beautiful," but guys rarely say (or in my case, even think), "Wow, he's a stud," even though I'm capable of discerning all on my own that a strikingly handsome man is...strikingly handsome.

[Majsju]

Maj, thanks for coming up with the descriptions of Dem's clothes, but I fail to see the inconsistency, Dem likes lace, but found it too frilly on Osangar.  Some days I feel like dressing up, some days I don't.  Maybe Perrin caught Demandred on his way to a ball, and the descriptions you gave are days when the forsaken were going buisness casual. 

 

Demandred found something about Osan'gars clothing excessive. Osan'gar wears a lot of gold, and a lot of lace. Two books later, we see Demandred wearing "falls of lace". Meanwhile, we have not seen anyone mention Demandred wearing as much as a button of gold.

Hmmm, just maybe it was not the lace he was refering to...

 

I'll bet you 10 bucks, or (7.5 euros ) that I can find at least 10 times that RJ describes Faile, and doesn't mention her characteristic nose.

 

Context, context, context.

 

Lets assume Perrin is not an idiot. He seees a person he has good reason to believe it just might be important paying attention to. What do you think he would look for first, the clothes, which can easily be changed, or characteristic features, like a big nose? Since he does notice that the person has a dark complexion, and white wings in the hair, you can rest assured that he would have noticed any characteristic nose. But he didn't.

 

But hey, perhaps Perrin is an idiot, or his inner designer took over to drool over the clothes...

[BrainFireBob]

Not to mention that wings of white in dark hair seem to be Rahvin's marker, as much as Sammael's scar or Demandred's nose or Balthamel's lavisciousness behavior. Or even Lanfear's clothes.

[cloglord]

Maybe Perrin, like many straight men, doesn't give much thought to whether or not another man is strikingly handsome. In my experience (as a straight man), it comes as an afterthought, if at all. Women are quick to say (and likely think), "Wow, she's beautiful," but guys rarely say (or in my case, even think), "Wow, he's a stud," even though I'm capable of discerning all on my own that a strikingly handsome man is...strikingly handsome.

 

Agreed, and yet Mat, who is also a straight male comments on how handsome Ravhin is.....

 

Context, context, context.

 

Lets assume Perrin is not an idiot. He seees a person he has good reason to believe it just might be important paying attention to. What do you think he would look for first, the clothes, which can easily be changed, or characteristic features, like a big nose? Since he does notice that the person has a dark complexion, and white wings in the hair, you can rest assured that he would have noticed any characteristic nose. But he didn't.

 

Context, context, context,

 

Perrin DID NOT notice "white wings" in the mystery man's hair.  He noticed grey in his hair.  So by your own logic of the omnipresent mention of characteristic features, why no wings?  Why is the hair the wrong color?  Rahvin is charateristically good looking, he's got characteristic "wings of white" in his hair, how did Perrin miss those?  Perrin's description is missing a characteristicly hooked nose, otherwise he is describing Demandred to a "T."  Perrin's description is missing the "wings of white," and the strikingly good looks, as well as leaving out the impressively broad shoulders that Mat attributed to Ravhin.  If we are going to play the game of, "what got left out of this description?" then I think, you lose.

 

Demandred found something about Osan'gars clothing excessive. Osan'gar wears a lot of gold, and a lot of lace. Two books later, we see Demandred wearing "falls of lace". Meanwhile, we have not seen anyone mention Demandred wearing as much as a button of gold.

Hmmm, just maybe it was not the lace he was refering to...

 

Context, context, context. (see I can do it too ;))

 

What if Demandred found Osan'gar's clothing excessive, because he didn't feel that Osan'gar was in the right leauge to be wearing it?  If I saw a farmer wearing $400 snake skin boots, while out to feed the hogs, I'd call that excessive.  If a punk kid on the street hits me up for change, while wearing a $200 dollar leather jacket, I'd call that excessive too.  Does it mean that I wouldn't wear nice boots?  Would the same jacket be excessive on a kid who works a part-time job and saved his money to buy something nice?  Maybe, just maybe, Demandred doesn't see the bumbling nerd, who got killed once aready by a OP overdose, and has proven to be entirely unneffectual since his release, as a peer.  Maybe, just maybe, he takes exception not with Osangar's style of clothing, but his fitness to wear a coat, "fit for a king of this age."  In any case, the fact that Demandred hasn't worn any gold in the two examples that you cited of are hardly proof of anything.  I wore blue jeans the last two days, so clearly I would never wear khakis. ::)

[Gentled Ben]

Cloglord responded:

Agreed, and yet Mat, who is also a straight male comments on how handsome Ravhin is.....

 

Mat's a player though, a womanizer of sorts, so he might be more attuned to...competition. Anyway, isn't he the one that's pretty in pink?  :P

[Harmless Bandit]

It's not just Mat only. Rand notices how handsome Galad is, and he also remarks that Ishamael (in his former self) is what women would consider good-looking. And if I am not wrong, either Perrin or Mat has remarked that about Ishy as well. I am not gay, but I've no problem noticing the 'handsomeness' of another dude, though admittedly it's not what I see first. I guess it's a macho thing.

Three things stand out where Rahvin is concerned: his height, his looks, and his broad shoulders. Rand is broad-shouldered, yet is never described as 'large', but that's how he describes Rahvin. Add a bit more to his (Rand's) height, add (considerably, I would say), to his shoulders, and you get Rahvin. Pretty much everyone who describes Rahvin notices his shoulders. If Perrin sees him as slender, then I guess someone like Rand is thin, and Mat is probably stick-thin in his view.

:-[

It's just that I think Perrin should know that his shoulders are way larger than the average, and so should not size up others in comparison to himself. That would be confusing. I can see a 7-foot man describing a 6'7 man as shorter than himself, but not plain average or short, especially if there are 6'0 and 5'4 men running around.

[Majsju]

Perrin DID NOT notice "white wings" in the mystery man's hair.  He noticed grey in his hair.  So by your own logic of the omnipresent mention of characteristic features, why no wings?  Why is the hair the wrong color?  Rahvin is charateristically good looking, he's got characteristic "wings of white" in his hair, how did Perrin miss those?  Perrin's description is missing a characteristicly hooked nose, otherwise he is describing Demandred to a "T."  Perrin's description is missing the "wings of white," and the strikingly good looks, as well as leaving out the impressively broad shoulders that Mat attributed to Ravhin.  If we are going to play the game of, "what got left out of this description?" then I think, you lose.

 

To be more exact, Perrin notices silver in otherwise black hair, Mat notices white streaking temples. Since noone actually has silver as a haircolour, it can mean a good many shades from bright grey to white-ish. Especially when you are comparing two different people describing a person they have seen under way different circumstances, Perrin in a dim T'A'R, Mat in a bright courtroom.

 

As for the striking good looks, not everyone has the same taste. What one sees as beautiful, another might see as quite average.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Agreed, and yet Mat, who is also a straight male comments on how handsome Ravhin is.....

 

Which is, of course, evidence that every man must do the same ...  ::)

 

Perrin and Mat saw the people they saw under very different circumstances, an Maj pointed out.

 

He noticed grey in his hair.  So by your own logic of the omnipresent mention of characteristic features, why no wings?  Why is the hair the wrong color?

 

As Maj pointed out, the hair is not the wrong color.  Perrin sees, "silver in his black hair".  The hair isn't gray ... its black, with some silver.

 

Out of curiousity ... what features that Perrin describes match Demandred?  None of the descriptions of Demandred that I've read have anything more than his hooked nose, the fact that he is slightly shorter than Lews Therin was, and the fact that he is handsome, but not gorgeous.  He never smiles.  Even the guide doesn't have more description than that.  He's actually not terribly well described ...

 

You say that, "Perrin's description is missing a characteristicly hooked nose, otherwise he is describing Demandred to a "T." ... and yet, Perrin does not mention any one of the three things we actually know about Demandred's appearance: he has a hooked nose, he is slightly shorter than Lews Therin, and he is handsome, but not gorgeous.  So ... exactly which parts of Perrin's description match Demandred "to a 'T.'"?

[cloglord]

To be more exact, Perrin notices silver in otherwise black hair, Mat notices white streaking temples. Since noone actually has silver as a haircolour, it can mean a good many shades from bright grey to white-ish. Especially when you are comparing two different people describing a person they have seen under way different circumstances, Perrin in a dim T'A'R, Mat in a bright courtroom.

 

Do you mean the Perrin who can see in better than ANY other character in the series,day OR night?  The same Perrin who describes Be'lal's hair as white, but by trick of the light, attributes a different color to the hair of the guy standing next to Be'lal?

 

Lets look at the issue of grey/silver/white streaks and wings, which you forgot to adress.

 

Ravhin: He is Rand's height or more and larger. He is dark and very handsome. He is youthful except for the white streaks at his temples. (TDR,Ch46)

 

Comar: He is tall, with wide shoulders and a deep chest. He has dark blue eyes and a short trimmed black beard with a streak of white on the chin. (TDR,Ch46)

 

Rianna Andomeran:  She has black hair with a white streak above her left ear. (TDR,Ch25) Black hair with a stark white streak above her left ear framed a face with the cold, arrogant certainty only a White could assume. (TSR,Ch38)

 

Luc Mantear:  He is tall, broad-shouldered and in his middle years. He has a hard, angular face and dark reddish hair white-winged at the temples. He has dark blue eyes. He wears a wolf's-head buckle on his belt. (TSR,Ch33)

 

Deira ni Ghaline t'Bashere:  She has long black hair with wings of white at the temples and dark eyes. (LoC,Ch46) She is very tall with long black hair white at the temples. She has typical Saldaean eyes and nose. (ACoS,Ch7)

 

Davram Bashere: He has gray streaked black hair and a thick mustache like down-turned horns around his wide mouth. (TFoH,Ch56) He is very short, has typical Saldaean tilted eyes and eagle beak nose, and has a gray streaked moustache. (ACoS,Ch7)

 

Now lets look at gray in hair.

 

Verin: She is plump and square-faced with a touch of gray in her brown hair. (TGH,Ch7)

 

Queen Ethenielle: She is plump and half a hand taller than Merilille. She is plump and her black hair is dusted with gray, but she is not at all motherly. She has clear blue eyes. (WH,Ch27)

 

Colavaere: She is an attractive woman in her middle years with a touch of gray. (ACoS,Ch5)

 

Lan: He is tall with long hair, gray at the temples, held back from his face by a narrow leather band. His face is made from stony planes and angles, weathered but unlined despite the gray in his hair. (TEotW,Ch2)

 

Coine din Jubai Wild Winds:  She has black hair touched with gray...(TSR,Ch19)

 

Gareth Byrne: He is bluff faced and stocky. His hair is gray at the temples. He looks as strong and immovable as a rock. (TEotW,Ch40) His hair is thick with gray. (TFoH,Ch1) He has a square face. His dark hair is heavy with gray. (LoC,Prologue) He is stocky, graying and moderately tall with a broad face. (ACoS,Ch11)

 

 

RJ does a really good job of describing things.  If its white, then its white, if its a streak then its a streak, if its gray then is is gray, and if it's a sprinkling its a sprinkling.  Ravhin is always described with white hair, streaked, at his temples.  Luc has gray streaks at his temples.  Verin has gray hair sprinkeld in brown, Cadsuane has "iron gray" hair, and Gitara's was "snow white"  To say that silver could be anything from white to bright gray, simply doesn't fit, and no one has yet explained why Ravhin had "streaks of white,"  and the guy in TAR, who was standing next to a guy with white hair had no streaks and his hair was silver.

 

As Maj pointed out, the hair is not the wrong color.  Perrin sees, "silver in his black hair".  The hair isn't gray ... its black, with some silver.

 

No argument here, the man has black hair with some silver, and he's standing next to a guy that Perrin says has white hair.

 

Out of curiousity ... what features that Perrin describes match Demandred?  None of the descriptions of Demandred that I've read have anything more than his hooked nose, the fact that he is slightly shorter than Lews Therin was, and the fact that he is handsome, but not gorgeous.  He never smiles.  Even the guide doesn't have more description than that.  He's actually not terribly well described ...

 

You say that, "Perrin's description is missing a characteristicly hooked nose, otherwise he is describing Demandred to a "T." ... and yet, Perrin does not mention any one of the three things we actually know about Demandred's appearance: he has a hooked nose, he is slightly shorter than Lews Therin, and he is handsome, but not gorgeous.  So ... exactly which parts of Perrin's description match Demandred "to a 'T.'"?

 

I'm glad you asked.  As you point out he is slightly shorter than LTT, who is the same height as Rand.  Rand is tall, Demandred is slightly less tall.  The man in TAR is described as tall.  We also know that Demandred was born one day after LTT and was only slightly weaker in the op than LTT.  Considering that their ages and their OP abilities are nearly identical, it would stand to reason that they would have aged similarly.  From TEotW Prolouge, we know that LTT was " A tall man just into his middle years, handsome once, but now with hair already more white than brown..."  If we know that Demandred was born at the same time, then it would seem that besides having a hooked nose, Demandred is also a "tall man, just into his middle years," and very likely showing some signs of age in his hair.  This would fit with the description Perrin gives of the man in Tar as having silver in his hair, and being distinguised, as opposed to Mat's description of Ravhin as "youthful despite the streaks of white."

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

No argument here, the man has black hair with some silver, and he's standing next to a guy that Perrin says has white hair

 

You do know how angles and shadows play with color ... right?  Especially white, gray, and silver?  I'm personally acquainted with real people who have had their hair color described as multiple different colors by different people who saw them in different light.  Its almost impossible for me to believe that you aren't acquainted with at least one similar situation, as well.

 

Considering that their ages and their OP abilities are nearly identical, it would stand to reason that they would have aged similarly.

 

I knew thats where you were going to go ... and its weak.  Really weak.  People go gray and/or white at a wide, wide variety of ages.  Some people never go gray.  So the fact that Lews Therin and Demandred are the same age means absolutely nothing regarding the color of Demandred's hair.

 

For all we know ... from the books ... Demandred could have bright green hair.  Most people assume he has dark hair because of the picture in the BWB ... but this is the same BWB that gives Lanfear and Moiraine blue eyes, Aviendha brownish-blond hair, etc, etc.  Not exactly a reliable source.

 

As you point out he is slightly shorter than LTT, who is the same height as Rand.  Rand is tall, Demandred is slightly less tall.  The man in TAR is described as tall.

 

Yeah ... um ... Rahvin is "tall" too.  So is Shaidar Haran.  And Moridin.  And basically every Aiel.  Thats ... a really, really weak connection ... and you said that Perrin's description fit him "to a 'T'."  According to one definition of the colloquialism, "to a T" functions as an adverb meaning "in every detail".  ( http://dict.die.net/to%20a%20t/ ) 

 

Yet ... none of the precise details verifiably ascribed to Demandred appear anywhere in Perrin's description of the man seen meeting with Be'lal.  Zero.

 

So, basically ... you gots nuttin.  ;D

[Majsju]

Do you mean the Perrin who can see in better than ANY other character in the series,day OR night?  The same Perrin who describes Be'lal's hair as white, but by trick of the light, attributes a different color to the hair of the guy standing next to Be'lal?

 

To have excellent seeing in darkness does not mean you see things exactly the same as in broad daylight. Perrin even comments on this, that it would be dim to anyone but him, which means he does notice a difference from normal light.

 

Lets look at the issue of grey/silver/white streaks and wings, which you forgot to adress.

 

Irrelevant. Since silver is not a real haircolour, it can be either white or grey, depending on the beholders interpretation. Both grey and white have a wide array of nuances, so silver in this case might very well mean "slightly less white than Be'lal."

 

Vieewing this in context, the silver vs white issue is the least relevant.

The clothes-issue is in itself enough to exclude Demandred. The lack of any mention of a hawk-nose added to that...

 

And of course, the clothes is an even more important issue when considering that when we meet Rahvin through Mats eyes later in the same book, he shows pretty much the same fashion as the bloke Perrin sees. RJs way of telling us "Ok guys, here's one of them". And a bit later in the same book, we meet Be'lal in a quite similar way.

Meanwhile, Demandred is completely off the radar in this book. In Perrins dream, we see four forsaken, Lanfear, Ishy, Be'lal and a fourth. The first three all plays a part in the book. Now, who plays a greater part in TDR, Rahvin or Demandred? Who makes most sense introducing at this point?

[cloglord]

I'm not going to take much time to cite sources, etc because neither of you two managed to actually say anything new.  I'll just ask you again to answer the questions that I posted.

 

1.  Why does Perrin describe Be'lal's hair as white, and the other man's as dark with silver  if Ravhin clearly has white streaks in his dark hair?  Keep in ming, please, that Perrin is describing the two men, in exactly the same light, under the same condidions.

 

2.  Why does RJ go to the trouble of describing the white in Ravhin's hair as "streaks" near his temples, and yet fails to mention these "charactoristic streaks when describing the man in TAR? Especially, when we have a clear pattern of consistency by RJ or differentiating between sprinkles, touches, streaks, and wings as I outlined above.

 

I knew thats where you were going to go ... and its weak.  Really weak.  People go gray and/or white at a wide, wide variety of ages.  Some people never go gray.  So the fact that Lews Therin and Demandred are the same age means absolutely nothing regarding the color of Demandred's hair.

 

Which is why I said that it was suggestive, instead of saying that they certainly were graying at the same time, or at the same rate.  However, middle aged, IS, middle aged.  No one would describe a middle-aged person as youthful, unless it was done in comparison to a much older person.  Now the man in question is standing next to a man with White hair, and is still described as distinquished.  Ravhin is described as youthful, while standing in the company of Morgase, who IS middle aged and appears to be even younger than she actually is.

 

Yet ... none of the precise details verifiably ascribed to Demandred appear anywhere in Perrin's description of the man seen meeting with Be'lal.  Zero.

 

So, basically ... you gots nuttin.  Grin

 

You're right, I've got nothing... that contradicts the description of demandred and the man from TAR.  On the other hand you've got alot.  A man with  color changing hair, who is taller and wider than any non-ogier character in the books while still maintaing his "slenderness", who is occasionally freakishly good looking, and is youthfully distinguished.  Sounds to me like you have more work to prove you are right, than I do.

 

Vieewing this in context, the silver vs white issue is the least relevant.

The clothes-issue is in itself enough to exclude Demandred.

 

I changed my clothes this morning, how about you?  Maybe you were too busy dyeing your hair, to get out of your embroidered PJ's?  Clothes are certainly more malleable than hair color.  How often has Egwene changed clothing style?  How many times has her hair color changed?

[Tyrell]

I don't mean to be rude, but why not both sides just drop it?

 

Neither side can win since there is no proof either way, and neither side is going to back down; all that's being done is splitting hairs, I mean really, what's the signifigence either way anyway? If it was Be'lal then we know pretty much what was being said, if it was Demandred, then we don't, but the forsaken argue all the time without someone to kick them back into line.

 

I just..

 

*shrug*

[lou]

this was the one time the forsaken could have actually have come out on top, if they had thier priorities straight. callandar was the perfect bait, the male forsaken should have positioned themselves around the one place that prophesy said the dragon would absolutely have to go. wait for rand, the young country shepard, to take callandar, then in a swoop, kill rand and take callandar. win the war.

as for who visited belal in Tel, certainly demandred as well as rahvin or ishmael, any of the forsaken really, would have reason to chat with belal, given where he made his home.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

this was the one time the forsaken could have actually have come out on top, if they had thier priorities straight. callandar was the perfect bait, the male forsaken should have positioned themselves around the one place that prophesy said the dragon would absolutely have to go. wait for rand, the young country shepard, to take callandar, then in a swoop, kill rand and take callandar. win the war.

 

They had their priority straight, they were looking after their own self-interest.  What good would it serve any of them if in the process of killing or capturing Rand they got balefired? Plus, Belal was not the trusting sort if they encroached on Tear he would have seen kit as an attack on him.

[lou]

belal was balefired, and ishmael was killed. this may have been prevented had there been unity and reinforcement amoung the forsaken.

[CUBAREY]

Yes, but it would have been unrealistic for the forsaken to put aside their own interests in favor of the "commen good".

[lou]

belal had made absolutely no secret of where he made his lair. he did not bother to ward his dreams so that even an AS with very limited knowlege of him would know he had tear. perhaps the conversation of the three was an argument over this. it would be far more tactical to lure the enemy to the ultimate weopon, then take it by force. even with moiraine's interference, it would have been less likely that any forsaken would have died, much less two.

it is not unrealistic that several forsaken would put aside thier own interests, graendal,lanfear,rahvin and sammael did try something like this later. they just chose the wrong time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're right, I've got nothing... that contradicts the description of demandred and the man from TAR.

 

Uh-huh ... you've got nothing that matches the description either.

 

Look ... obviously, nothing short of a quote from Jordan saying "Perrin saw Rahvin talking to Be'lal in Tel'aran'rhiod" is going to convince you, so this is indeed, as was suggested, the time to drop it.

[Cybertrolloc]

For all we know ... from the books ... Demandred could have bright green hair.

Doesn't Dem usually get described in a way that suggests dark hair? I'm thinking of the adjective dark and so on...

 

this was the one time the forsaken could have actually have come out on top, if they had thier priorities straight. callandar was the perfect bait, the male forsaken should have positioned themselves around the one place that prophesy said the dragon would absolutely have to go. wait for rand, the young country shepard, to take callandar, then in a swoop, kill rand and take callandar. win the war.

See Robert's armchair general thread for the Shadow. The "why don't they X" list is very, very long considering the resources and abilities available to them that aren't covered by Taveran, being petty/incompetent or the suggestion of the Dark's overall strategy to date. At the least, we can be sure it's not as simple as "win the war" though it remains to be seen what RJ had in mind.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Doesn't Dem usually get described in a way that suggests dark hair? I'm thinking of the adjective dark and so on..

 

Nope.  Or at least, I couldn't find anything that does ... and I re-read every bit I could find where Demandred is present just for this thread.

[Tyrell]

 

See Robert's armchair general thread for the Shadow. The "why don't they X" list is very, very long considering the resources and abilities available to them that aren't covered by Taveran, being petty/incompetent or the suggestion of the Dark's overall strategy to date. At the least, we can be sure it's not as simple as "win the war" though it remains to be seen what RJ had in mind.

 

Where might i find that thread, sounds worth reading.