What Will Happen With The Seanchan?

[DuDZiK]

One of the Aiel Wiseones, I believe, had the dream of Rand cleaving the world in half with a flaming sword.

 

We know that the Seanchan believe that the Dragon Reborn must kneel to the Empress (might she live forever ;D), and we know that Rand would never do such a thing. Now the new Empress, Tuon, just so happens to be married to Mat, a ta'varen and one of Rand's best friends. Oh, and those two love birds also just so happen to have agreed that they will fight each other for the sovereignty of the lands.

 

So I imagine that at some point in time, Rand will have to have a meeting with Tuon and negotiate a deal whereby the Seanchan will keep many of the territories they have hold of. Not a big thing really, considering they're conquering all the territories that were in near anarchy before that, and they do bring stability and order to them. So take away the whole collaring women who can channel thing, and it wouldn't be all that bad a trade.

 

Anyways, I can't wait to see this meeting. I hope Mat is there, and I hope that the two of them do some serious ta'varen work on Tuon and teach her a little humility 8) Then again, I wouldn't be too upset if she somehow taught Rand some humility... maybe they can teach other humility? ::) Well, Cadsuane and Nynaeve will be there, and I'm sure the two of them will try and teach them BOTH humility.

 

Oh can you just see Cadsuane's face when she tries to confront Tuon and Tuon just walks around her like she's furniture, like she did with Joline and Teslyn in Knife of Dreams? She won't like that one bit... that will be an epic battle of wills, and I for one can't say who would win it for all of Cadsuane's three hundred years of experience versus Tuon's... sixteen?:D

 

My only question is, who thinks that Rand will gain the upper hand and who thinks Tuon will?

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Anyways, I can't wait to see this meeting. I hope Mat is there, and I hope that the two of them do some serious ta'varen work on Tuon and teach her a little humility  Then again, I wouldn't be too upset if she somehow taught Rand some humility... maybe they can teach other humility?  Well, Cadsuane and Nynaeve will be there, and I'm sure the two of them will try and teach them BOTH humility.

 

My guess is as follows, Cadsuanne wii be at least partially succesful in teaching Rand a lttle humulity by the time of the meeting.  Therefore, Rand agrees to kneel to Tuon (it may be a part of the corrupted Seanchen prophecies, but its one thing that Tuon will insist upon as she really believes it necessary in order to win TG) in return agrees to a truce with the rest of the Westlands until after TG. She further agrees to join her armies to Rand's for purposes of fighting TG. Mat (the Prince of Ravens, leader of the Red Hand  and Rand's oldest friend is named overall commander of the unified army). Now Tuon could refuse to even acknowledge Cadsuanne or she could choose to view her as Rand's Voice(this would have the advantage of giving her a way to rationalize Rand's relationship with Cadsuanne-- Voices have been known to slap even an Emporer when he acted a fool).

[stoper]

Sice the second book I hate these Seanchan more than all darkfriends and forsakens. And this truce just drives me nuts.

How did you see this allied relationships?

Seanchans came to Westlands as a conquerors and conquered almost half of the Westlands, they'll attack White Tower (and most likely kill some AS) and then - truce. Rodel Ituralde with seanchans and Aes Sedai side by side with sul'dam and damane facing the Last Battle?... OK, let's say that's possible, for the great purpose. The united Light's forces win this Last Battle and then what?

The book ends?

They call off the truce and the battle continued?

Or maybe they shake hands and Seanchan keeps Tarabron, Amadicia and Altara and renounce their "home-coming campaign"?

 

Therefore, Rand agrees to kneel to Tuon (it may be a part of the corrupted Seanchen prophecies, but its one thing that Tuon will insist upon as she really believes it necessary in order to win TG) in return agrees to a truce with the rest of the Westlands until after TG.

Kneeling to someone isn't some minor gesture you know. Rand kneeling to Tuon means that he'll obey her. She won't be his ally, she'll own him.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Sice the second book I hate these Seanchan more than all darkfriends and forsakens. And this truce just drives me nuts.

How did you see this allied relationships?

Seanchans came to Westlands as a conquerors and conquered almost half of the Westlands, they'll attack White Tower (and most likely kill some AS) and then - truce. Rodel Ituralde with seanchans and Aes Sedai side by side with sul'dam and damane facing the Last Battle?... OK, let's say that's possible, for the great purpose. The united Light's forces win this Last Battle and then what?

The book ends?

They call off the truce and the battle continued?

Or maybe they shake hands and Seanchan keeps Tarabron, Amadicia and Altara and renounce their "home-coming campaign"?

 

Therefore, Rand agrees to kneel to Tuon (it may be a part of the corrupted Seanchen prophecies, but its one thing that Tuon will insist upon as she really believes it necessary in order to win TG) in return agrees to a truce with the rest of the Westlands until after TG.

Kneeling to someone isn't some minor gesture you know. Rand kneeling to Tuon means that he'll obey her. She won't be his ally, she'll own him.

 

I would hardly call what the Seancahn control half of the Randland, or Wetlands.  not even a 1/4 to be true.

 

I think that with Tuon in control, they will come to an agreement with Rand and be allies at least util the end of TG. After that, i think they will have their hands full trying to hold there old land together to be bothered trying to take anymore of Randland. Semirage, realy took care of them for Rand, at least I beleive so.

[aevogt]

The book ends?

They call off the truce and the battle continued?

Or maybe they shake hands and Seanchan keeps Tarabron, Amadicia and Altara and renounce their "home-coming campaign"?

 

 

From Prophecy "The great battle done but the world not done with battle." 

 

After TG, the Seanchan renew their attempts to conquer the entire continent and the fighting amongst men continues, now that the threat of the DO is over - for now.

[Cillian]

One of the Aiel Wiseones, I believe, had the dream of Rand cleaving the world in half with a flaming sword.

 

We know that the Seanchan believe that the Dragon Reborn must kneel to the Empress (might she live forever ;D), and we know that Rand would never do such a thing. Now the new Empress, Tuon, just so happens to be married to Mat, a ta'varen and one of Rand's best friends. Oh, and those two love birds also just so happen to have agreed that they will fight each other for the sovereignty of the lands.

 

So I imagine that at some point in time, Rand will have to have a meeting with Tuon and negotiate a deal whereby the Seanchan will keep many of the territories they have hold of. Not a big thing really, considering they're conquering all the territories that were in near anarchy before that, and they do bring stability and order to them. So take away the whole collaring women who can channel thing, and it wouldn't be all that bad a trade.

 

My only question is, who thinks that Rand will gain the upper hand and who thinks Tuon will?

 

Rand doesn't actually have to kneel to the Empress/Crystal Throne, thats a false prophecy.

 

To answer your question; I think Rand will have the upper hand, he already knows what he has to do. i.e the Seanchan will have South and West, Rand will have North and East. At least for TG.

[vbama]

It may also be possible that the male version of the adame will come into play to make Rand kneel. There has to be a use for the thing since it was mentioned so often. Just a theory, but def. possible. Tuan has already shown how quickly she can attach the necklace to numerous women at once.

[professorskar]

Rand doesn't actually have to kneel to the Empress/Crystal Throne, thats a false prophecy.

 

I see it mentioned quite often that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted--by Ishamael, it would seem--but is this actually mentioned straight out in the books?  I'm thinking it is, since I've seen so many mention it as fact, but I can't remember when this is said.

 

Wasn't the prophecy related to Perrin and Mat (Wolf King carries the hammer/fox marries the raven) also Seanchan prophecy?  Are they corrupt too?

[Vambram]

Very good questions, professorskar. I don't know the answers of those questions for sure, or where in the books those answers can be found. Therefore, I too hope that someone can enlighten us wotfanatics on the dragonmount forums.

 

[DuDZiK]

It may also be possible that the male version of the adame will come into play to make Rand kneel. There has to be a use for the thing since it was mentioned so often. Just a theory, but def. possible. Tuan has already shown how quickly she can attach the necklace to numerous women at once.

 

Yes, but that male a'dam is now in the possession of Rand himself, so if anything someone close to him who has access to it would be the one to get it on him. Tuon doesn't even know this thing exists, though admitedly she could be told by Suroth or someone else who knew of it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, but that male a'dam is now in the possession of Rand himself, so if anything someone close to him who has access to it would be the one to get it on him.

 

Um ... there was only one to begin with ... but in the box Rand found there were five copies ... so, how do we know there aren't any extra copies laying around?  Answer: we don't.  We do, however, know that there are damane who know how to make a'dam ...

 

Tuon doesn't even know this thing exists, though admitedly she could be told by Suroth or someone else who knew of it.

 

Tuon does know that they exist.  In Winter's Heart, chapter 14, when Tuon is sailing toward Ebou Dar, Anath Dorje (aka Semirhage) says that she must not let Rand know how dangerous she is to him now.  She is referring to the male a'dam, which Tuon can, of course, use on him personally, being able to channel herself.  She knew before she ever landed in Ebou Dar.

 

I see it mentioned quite often that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted--by Ishamael, it would seem--but is this actually mentioned straight out in the books?

 

Its never stated straight out, but it implied by the discrepancy in the prophecies, and when Ishamael is boasting to Rand about manipulating the Seanchan.

 

Wasn't the prophecy related to Perrin and Mat (Wolf King carries the hammer/fox marries the raven) also Seanchan prophecy?  Are they corrupt too?

 

The Wolf King prophecy with the hammer is known, at least to some, on this side of the ocean (witness Verin's questions to Perrin about when he will give up his axe for the hammer).  Ishamael probably only corrupted a very small portion of the overall prophecies (the best lie is 9 parts truth, 1 important lie), so that one is likely untouched. 

[professorskar]

The Wolf King prophecy with the hammer is known, at least to some, on this side of the ocean (witness Verin's questions to Perrin about when he will give up his axe for the hammer).  Ishamael probably only corrupted a very small portion of the overall prophecies (the best lie is 9 parts truth, 1 important lie), so that one is likely untouched. 

 

Thanks...I did some digging after posting that question and found some of the relevant quotes.  Specifically from Captain-General Kennar Miraj, whose POV said:

 

"The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too - not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! - but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still" (TPOD: 24, A Time for Iron, 461)"

 

I doubt Tuon would be too thrilled about that "bind the nine moons to him" prophecy of the true Karaethon Cycle.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Kneeling to someone isn't some minor gesture you know. Rand kneeling to Tuon means that he'll obey her. She won't be his ally, she'll own him.

 

What kneeling means depends on the observers viewpoint. For the Seanchen, kneeling may in fact be an official Declaration of subservience. But in the Westlands kneeling is a sign of respect (i.e. Lan and Rand kneeling to the Amyrlin in Book Two; Mat kneeling to Morgase when he brings Elayne's letter, etc.) but an oath is normally required to bind yourself as a vassel (i.e. the Queen of Ghalidean's oath to Perrin).

[trakand_01]

If i remember rightly, the Seanchan servants practically lay themselves out like a carpet when a senior person enters the room. Also Rand kneels to Morgase when he is taken to her by ... was that Tallanvor? after he's fallen into the garden whilst trying to climb high enough to see Logain being taken to the tower.

 

I agree that kneeling is a sign of respect, it depends on what the person being kneeled to takes it as, so ... all that what he said.

[stoper]

Yes, but Seanchan didn't demand respect, thay demand obedience.

Also Lan kneel to Amyrlin because he's part of the White Tower and Amyrlin is his leader. Mat kneel to Morgase since basically she's his queen.

And when Rand kneel to Amyrlin he was just a boy. Now it's clearly that he's the Dragon Reborn and this fact change the situation.

If you ask me they all must kneel to Rand. According to the prophecy, he's their only hope and if he decide to take a break on some Tear's beach, they are all dead :P

[trakand_01]

I think that it is important Rand learns to share responsibility, and rule. It says he will kneel infront of the Crystal Throne, it doesnt say what Tuon / the Seanchan will do in return.

 

As with the troubles we are experiencing in Pakistan at the moment with President Musharraf's one-man-power, it is a very dangerous thing.

 

I hope that Rand / whoever survives TG to be in power and the Seanchan work something out between them, and dont each attempt to hold 100% of the power. Perhaps this prophecy is something to do with that.

[CUBAREY]

Yes, but Seanchan didn't demand respect, thay demand obedience.

Also Lan kneel to Amyrlin because he's part of the White Tower and Amyrlin is his leader. Mat kneel to Morgase since basically she's his queen.

And when Rand kneel to Amyrlin he was just a boy. Now it's clearly that he's the Dragon Reborn and this fact change the situation.

If you ask me they all must kneel to Rand. According to the prophecy, he's their only hope and if he decide to take a break on some Tear's beach, they are all dead

 

First, what Lan and Rand did is not what a Warder would do, is what a Borderland noble would do- its explicitely stated that the way Lan told rand to Act in front of the Amyrlin is how a young borderland noble would act. Second, Mat may be technically an Andorman but as a Two Rivers man he did not belive himself one, he was folloeing Tallsver's example--he thought it was how one showed respect.  More importantly, you miss my point, by kneeling Rand forefills the Seanchen prophecy-- what Tuon thinks of it is not strictly speaking important as long as she belives the prophecy forefilled.

[stoper]

I think their prophecy means that the Dragon must obey to the Empress, not just physically kneel and then leave by his own.

Like the prophecy for the Dragon. Rand can't just go to Shayol Ghul, cut his finger, spray few drops of his blood and done, the prophecy is fulfilled.

 

Man, I'm pissed off from Rand's behaviour to Cadsuane, so if he accept orders from this crazy girl (Tuon) as well - I'll burn my books :P

 

From Prophecy "The great battle done but the world not done with battle." 

 

After TG, the Seanchan renew their attempts to conquer the entire continent and the fighting amongst men continues, now that the threat of the DO is over - for now.

So you're sayng that we won't see this battle between Seanchan and the Westlands? Because I don't think Tarmon Gai'don will end in the middle of the last book and then we'll read about Seanchan/Westlands conflict.

[aevogt]

I think the Seanchan have perverted the Karaethon Cycle to their own ends.  Why wouldn't they.  Just because someone says "this is prophecy, so it has to come true"  doesn't mean it is or that it will.  I doubt Rand will ever get within 10,000 miles of the Crystal Throne but if he does, he'll be sitting on it.

 

At least Semirhage did him the favor of wacking the Empress. 

[Tyrell]

RJ stated flat out that the main WoT series won't be going to Seanchan (the continent) any more than a very brief trip to some snowy region. IIRC.

[trakand_01]

I believe it was Rand and Aviendha who went there.  ;) ;D