Moridin and Shaidar Haran

[aevogt]

What's the relationship between Moridin and Shaidar Haran?  Have we seen these two in the same scene?  For some reason I don't think so but can't recall. 

 

Since the Hand of the Shadow may actually have some of the "essence" of the DO, (that's what I think, in any case) doesn't that mean that the Nae' blis, as the DO's regent, would have to obey him?

 

"When you Obey me, you Obey Him, when you Disobey me..."  Shaidar Haran doesn't need to finish that statement.

 

Or, was SH sent out to bring all the Chosen to heel for Moridin and then recalled to the Pit of Doom once that task was completed?

[ignavus1223]

I think SH is directly tied to the DO, while Moridin is he leader of the chosen.  So far, they seem to be working in concert, but I would think Moridin would ultimately have to answer to SH.  I'm not sure if Moridin knows that or not... he could be in for a nasty surprise. 

[Man of MAdnEss]

I don't think SH is going to be used for the sole purpose of bringing the Chosen to heel, becasue there is a scene where he has an ache or a longing, that forces him to return to the Pit of Doom and he expresses a desire to be rid of that link.

 

MM

[professorskar]

I don't think SH is going to be used for the sole purpose of bringing the Chosen to heel, becasue there is a scene where he has an ache or a longing, that forces him to return to the Pit of Doom and he expresses a desire to be rid of that link.

 

MM

 

I've heard a lot of people use this quote to assume that Shadar Haran has some sort of separate personality from the Dark One that longs to escape.  But, if he is the essence of the Dark One, couldn't his desire to be rid of the link to Shayol Ghul be representative of the Dark Ones desire to be free from his prison?

[BKVMC]

i  dont think weve seen a scene with moridin and SH interacting with each other yet  at least i  cant remember one.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I don't think SH is going to be used for the sole purpose of bringing the Chosen to heel, becasue there is a scene where he has an ache or a longing, that forces him to return to the Pit of Doom and he expresses a desire to be rid of that link.

 

The Ghulom(sp) also voices a similar desire to be free of the Orders of the Choosen.  I think the Higher Shadowspawn are starting to develop a very dangerous rebellious streak that the Choosen are not aware of. This may be related to the fact that they are closer to the DO then humans (even the Choosen) and as the DO's prison gets weaker his essance manifests itself more stringly on the Shadowspawn.

[Guest Dreadlord]

i have thought for a long time that shaidar and moridin are the same person. im prett ysure any objection to this i will have an answer for (not that i would argue an idea i have) but any question against it so far i have thought of a good explanation for. we have seen PoVs for both and they are different, yet that means nothing as ishamael thought he WAS the dark one. this i believe to be a side effect of the true power (insanity like the taint) so moridin could be developing a split personality. they were both there when arangar and osangar were introduced, yet you only saw one of them at a time. also, shaidars clothes fell off making him look like a man, which hints towards moridin i reckon

[Tyrell]

Shadar Haran is eight feet tall and has no eyes, he's a Fade and looks like a Fade, he also projects an evil stedding field of no channellingness around him.

 

Morridin is about Rand's height, has very blue eyes  (and saa in them), is human, looks human, and can channel the True Power (although there is evidence of Shadar Haran dooing that too.

 

Shadar Haran - Hand of Dark : Shai'tan's Avatar

 

Morridin - Ishamael : Nae'blis, Crazy, only true believer in Shai'tan's stated objective (possibly the only Chosen who actually knows what that is, going to be interesting to see what the Chosen do if they find out that their Great Lord doesn't mean for them to rule the world, he means to destroy it, and them with it, ultimately).

[Guest Dreadlord]

appearance means nothing in this mate, rand can do illusions, moridin uses the true power so only he would know the true power is being used. the reason moridin would use a superfade as an alter ego would be to intimidate anyone, even the other chosen, into doing what he says. the stedding effect could easily be something he does with the true power (although i dont remember him having that effect-he shielded osangar & arangar with the true power i reckon). i am near to when shaidar first appears so i am going to take notes and post it all on here

[Majsju]

SH first appears in TDR...Ie before Ishy was toast.

 

Week 23 Question: Was the Fade who visited Jaichim Carridin in the Prologue of The Dragon Reborn an early version of Shaidar Haran? Its response that it likes to keep an eye on 'all who serve me' and its apparent sense of humour are behaviour atypical of a Fade.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: I was wondering who would spot that. Shadar Haran Version 0.5! The Dark One doesn't get it spot on the first time every time.

 

Then, how would Moridin use TP to maintain an illusion and super-shield people in the Pit of Doom, where it is strictly forbidden? The DO turned a 180 and from out of nowhere started to trust Moridin?

[Guest Dreadlord]

moridin is naebliss! of course the dark one trusts him! just because the dark one is evil doesnt mean he cant trust anyone! if the dark one didnt trust moridin then why would he grant him use of the true power? or say moridin could rule the world in his name after tarmon gaidon? and shayol ghul is different anyway that could be said to be the dark ones power in that area itself.

[Mr Ares]

or say moridin could rule the world in his name after tarmon gaidon?

The most common thinking is Shai'tan plans to destroy the world. Certainly Moridin has no interest in ruling, only destroying. Also, as to the issue of trust, I leave it to the authors own words:

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's POVs that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

That said, he could allow Moridin to put up this Illusion....but why? When Moghedien meets the superfade in ACOS, at SG she is taken from him to Moridin. So, essentially, we need to set up a meeting between the with Moridin wearing his SH disguise in the Pit of Doom, then they go and she meets Moridin a bit later, because he is madder than we have given him credit for and so goes through this elaborate charade - which is entirely unsupported in the books - because he actually believes it to be a good idea. OK. So, why do we invent all of this elaborate stuff, such as a split personality, with one personality clearly not human and in possession of entirely inhuman abilities and limitations that are not apparent in the other? Because you are unwilling to accept that Moridin and SH are different, and you need to have this overcomplicated and unsubstantiated set up? Now, I want some evidence. Any evidence at all.

[Majsju]

When Messana meets the superfade in ACOS, at SG she is taken from him to Moridin

 

Moghedien, not Mesaana.

 

You have a very similar thing when SH pays a visit to Graendal. One of the orders it gives her is to go and see Moridin.

[Mr Ares]

When Messana meets the superfade in ACOS, at SG she is taken from him to Moridin

Moghedien, not Mesaana.

 

You have a very similar thing when SH pays a visit to Graendal. One of the orders it gives her is to go and see Moridin.

Damn! Confusing my "female Chosen gets punished" scenes. The basic point is still correct though, and your point adds to it. The two personalities gain him nothing, and there is no evidence he would bother.

[Guest Dreadlord]

thats like saying rand shouldnt bother having the problems he does with Lews therin

[Mr Ares]

thats like saying rand shouldnt bother having the problems he does with Lews therin

Hardly. The key word in my post was evidence. There is evidence of LTT's existence, in every Rand POV. There are Moridin POVs, and there are Shaidar Haran POVs, and no evidence to say that they are the same being, and no evidence that either would bother with the whole Illusion to look like the other for no real reason thing that is being suggested.

[elmis]

The scene that I think about when people bring this up is when Saidar Haran 'pushes' Moghedien from the vacuole straight into the presence of Moridin. He makes her close her eyes before he does it. Once she opens them, Shaidar Haran is gone. (aCoS - Chapter 25)

 

Granted, he is a fade and there's probably loads of shadows in Moridins spooky crib so it could mean nothing. Now I don't think they're the same guy, but I found that scene strange. Anyway, combine that with the fact that we've never seen them together, or even had them think about each other from their respective POVs and you got the basis for for a theory.

 

There's been loonier theories. ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE "The scene that I think about when people bring this up is when Saidar Haran 'pushes' Moghedien from the vacuole straight into the presence of Moridin. He makes her close her eyes before he does it. Once she opens them, Shaidar Haran is gone. (aCoS - Chapter 25)"

UNQOTE

 

Thank you, thats the scene i had in mind-ever since then Ive thought they were the same guy. Also, Im sure one of the female forsaken had an encounter with Shaidar where part of Shaidars clothing fell off and didnt dissappear...the forsaken noted this as unusuall as fades are partly from a different time phase or something like that??? So theres your evidence, thank you very much MR ARES!!!

 

As for a reason. I think Moridin created this alter ego in order to force the forsaken to do what he says, whether or not they know it is him. They scheme against each other too much, and with Tarmon Gaidon around the corner Moridin needs them all to keep in line. I think that Shaidar sending the other forsaken to Moridin is a brilliant way to make sure they do as he says when showing his own face-make them too scared to think of doing otherwise, theyll think if they disobey Moridin they will bring on Shaidars wrath.

[Majsju]

Questions WSB asked at Book Signing, 9/4/05:

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It’s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature…it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

Winespringbrother: Ohh.

 

http://p094.ezboard.com/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=4.topic

[Guest Dreadlord]

I dont mean to sound stubborn, and I know I do, but RJ said it is AS IF the Dark One can project a shadowy form of himself into THIS CREATURE. He didnt name the creature-seems like Aes Sedai talk to me, sounds like he was dancing around the truth. THIS CREATURE could have been Moridin, so maybe the Dark One projects the shadowy form into Moridin, making the Superfade appear. RJ said the power of the Dark One is there 24/7, but when he said its AS IF the Dark One can project a shadowy form of himself into this creature, that hints that while the power granted by him is there all the time but the shadowy form of himself isn't. Moridin has access to the True Power whenever he wants, right? Even if Moridin had to ask the Dark One before channeling the True Power that power is still there 24/7. So while it seemed like RJ wrote the theory off I thing he did nothing of the sort, only gave more reason for me to believe it.

[Majsju]

it is the Dark One in shadowy form

 

Moridin is clearly not the DO, even in a shadowy form, since Moridin is clearly Ishamael recycled.

 

I know it sucks when favourite theories are shot down, I have had my fair share of that happening over the years. But when there is overwhelming evidence, there really is little point of keep arguing.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Yea I know, its worse though when you have a theory and someone else claims it to be their own and then everyone agrees with them and don't acknowledge it was you who came up with the idea. Thats about another theory though, one I had a long time ago before the DM site went under construction for ages.

 

Still, I can feel the stubbornness about Moridin and Shaidar but I won't debate it anymore, agree to disagree and all that.

[aevogt]

Just something that occured to me. 

Both Mesanna and Moghedien are sexually assaulted by SH. 

 

A Mask of Mirrors only holds up against sight, it doesn't work against pyhsicalo contact.

 

Either would have noticed, and likely been less physically damaged, that they were being accosted by a human, rather than an 8 foot Fade.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I made a promise not to argue my point on this anymore, I have an answer to that aevogt but I'm just guna make myself look even more stubborn than I already have

[bRANDan]

Just something that occured to me. 

Both Mesanna and Moghedien are sexually assaulted by SH.

 

I hope to God you mean PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED, not SEXUALLY ASSAULTED. Otherwise, what the hell kind of book are you reading?

 

As for the Mask of Illusion bit, you are absolutely correct. If Moridin was SH then SH would never be able to touch anything, being 8 feet tall would put everything out of place. If Moridin lifted his arm as SH you would see SH's arm raise upwards in front of him and then Moridin's arm would poke through the Illusion about stomach area on the SH Illusion. SH has raised his arm numerous times and no human hand has popped out.

 

The only way for this to happen. Moridin be SH, would be for Moridin to make a SH out of Air, so it has structure and can pick up things, and then portray and Illusion on top of that, and sync the two up. The rest of the TP channeling that SH did could then be from Moridin. But Moridin would not be able to be inside the SH made of Air and Illusion, the whole can't breath thing that Rand noted in his "cocoon", he would have to make himself invisible and stand very still off to the side. But then how would we get the SH POV's. It just doesn't add up, even if the POV's could be explained that's alot of channeling to do all at once and for continous stretches. Seem easier just to do it as Moridin then go through all of that.

 

Also there is a scene where SH is just watching, why would Moridin become SH just to watch, when nothing can be gained from it? Or is it that the DO projects himself into Moridin, kind of like a split personality? The DO projects himself constantly but the level of this projection varies and only sometimes gets to the level required to become SH.

 

Doesn't add up to me.