Something the Two Rivers was missing?

[SinisterDeath]

After watching a show on the History channel about Pigs/Hogs, a thought occured to me...

The one thing the Two Rivers was missing, was a Butcher. It seems to me, that a Butcher is a Primary aspect of that type of society... They specilized in cutting the meat, perserving it, and either toke a cut of the meat for them selves, or 'sold it back' to the people for a price. They often required special tools, that your basic farmer didn't necissarilly have... The two rivers, Had To Have Had, some kind of livestock, how else would they fead everyone? And I'm sure Everyone didn't own 20 head of cattle! I don't recall there being any mention of a butcher in the two rivers, only a blacksmith.... But it has been a year or two since i've read the eye of the world! (And probably the same length since I've actually had a wot discussion!) :P

[Thunderbomb]

as far as I can remember there was not a butcher... but hey they might have been all vegetarians =P

[cloglord]

I'm not sure that your basic asssumptions are right Sinister.  Having grown up on a farm, and having participated in hog butchering, it is not nearly as difficult as you would think.  Nearly anyone could manage the butchering of small livestock, and many historic American farmers managed to butcher a few, "beefs." every winter when the conditions made it easier to consume the larger quantities of meat that would come from a steer.  Hogs, and sheep, which the 2 rivers is full of, are both smaller animals, with less meat per animal to process, and with types of meat that are better suited to salt cures.  If you've ever had salt beef, you'd probably spit it right out, and head for a nice juicy piece of ham. 

 

Oddly, enough, you've hit right in my area of expertise, as I currently pay my bills as a historical interpreter at an agricultural museum.  I have personally butchered hogs, and taken the meat through the entire process of cutting, curing and smoking.  I've also had the priveledge, if it can be called that, of trying to grow tobacco, and have sheared sheep by hand.  These are all things that I did while managing a period pioneer farm, a period in American history noted for the rugged independance of its rural class.  To me , two river's folk sound like mid-western pioneers. 

[cloglord]

Hey, just had another thought, did that show mention a place called Living History Farms in Des Moines?  It seems to me that I remember some talk at work, about the history channel wanting to come out and film some of my pigs, I can't remember if they ever ended up coming though....

[bjclinton]

good point, but i seem to recall that most of their meals were of a simple nature and as i'm currently rereading the series, I can't remember alot of Rib Eyes and Sirloins being on the menu in Emonds Field ;)

 

from what I can recall, its alot of game food and very often the Two Rivers folk were referred to as being excellent with the bow and sling. i'm guessing they didn't have much livestock other than for milking, etc. Rather, they got their day to day food from hunting and roasted the occasional bird, etc. for special occasions.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

from what I can recall, its a lot of game food and very often the Two Rivers folk were referred to as being excellent with the bow and sling. I'm guessing they didn't have much livestock other than for milking, etc. Rather, they got their day to day food from hunting and roasted the occasional bird, etc. for special occasions

 

Actually the point was made that they were sheep herders. True they hunted but it would seem to me that they would have eaten a lot of mutton.  Also, village folk like the Mayor (an Inn keeper) would need a source of meat year-round and not just when hunting was optimal or even possible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I hate mutton.  I don't really have anything else to add ... I just hate mutton.

[callandor]

way to add to the thread RAW. :P

[cloglord]

I hate mutton.  I don't really have anything else to add ... I just hate mutton.

 

As do I, it tends to taste too gamey for my taste.  It almost tastes the way that sheep crap smells, and that's no good in my book.  I have had some excellent lamb however, I guess it takes a while for the stank to get absorbed into the meat.

[Jelly]

What's mutton?

[krelianzg]

Lamb = Baby sheep

Mutton = Big sheep

[Jelly]

Ah, right. I see.  :)

[avacraft]

Most of the farmers and herders would have been able to butcher their own meat and sell it at the inn or other places in town.  There would probably been a butcher in the slightly more town-like village of Taren Ferry or down in Devon's Ride but a butcher would not have been absolutely necessary to survive.

[Hero of Satsuma]

I suppose the easiest answer is that the Butcher didn't play a big enough role on the story to be mentioned.....

 

but what's the fun in that?

[Tamia Sedai]

I was just rereading the first book and it mentions that MAster Luhhan can't stand seeing the butchering done, so it must have happened right?

 

Oh, and I've never had mutton or lamb. Doesn't sound good though.  :P

[bjclinton]

Quote:

 

from what I can recall, its a lot of game food and very often the Two Rivers folk were referred to as being excellent with the bow and sling. I'm guessing they didn't have much livestock other than for milking, etc. Rather, they got their day to day food from hunting and roasted the occasional bird, etc. for special occasions

 

Actually the point was made that they were sheep herders. True they hunted but it would seem to me that they would have eaten a lot of mutton.  Also, village folk like the Mayor (an Inn keeper) would need a source of meat year-round and not just when hunting was optimal or even possible.

 

we have seen no evidence of this....out of all of the meals that we've seen the Two Rivers folk eat in their village, Mutton has never been one of them. If i'm wrong, please provide a quote. They're sheep herders for the Wool, not the livestock....wool is the 2nd largest TR export behind Tobac.

 

 

[cloglord]

In TSR Mrs. Al'vere offerd to make Perrin a bundle of ham, roast beef, and pickles.  Later they all eat Lamb stew at the Al'Seen farm.  Later, Aram and  Perrin eats roast goose at the winespring inn.

 

Beef, pork, lamb, and poultry.  Sounds like a full table of agriculturally produced meats.  Just because an animal is used for one purpose, doesn't mean that it can't be used for another.  Pioneer farmers actually prefered to improve breeds of livestock to fulfill more than one purpose.  Poultry for meat and eggs, sheep for wool and meat, hogs for meat and lard (a shortening but also for soap production) cattle for meat, tallow, dairy, and as a source of draft power (oxen.)  In many cultures they even use sheep, goat, and yes even horse milk for human consumption, and don't even get me started on eating horses and dogs......

 

It seems pretty clear to me, that the two river's meat production comes from its agricultural base.  I do have to say that I've seen an abundance of sheep,  but can recall no pigs.....So where'd the ham come from,?  And if Bran Al'vere has the only set of draft horses in the area, how the hell do they pull their plows?  It would take like 6 or 8 saddle horses to pull a single bottom plow, depending on the width of the share. 

 

I have to conclude that RJ wasn't a agricultural history enthusiast, that's okay, we can't all be perfect. ;)

[BrainFireBob]

Figure as much. Although, I always figured the lack of a butcher was indicative of the small size of Emond's Field- I was shocked they had a fletcher, to be honest. Bootmaker, blacksmith (that also can do whitesmithing in a pinch), furniture maker, restauranteer- sure. I mean, Mat lived in the "village" itself and his father was still a farmer- that's pretty darn agrarian.

[SinisterDeath]

The two rivers is small, but its definately not to small to have a butcher, if it has a blacksmith. ;)

IT seems to me, that Emonds field would be the hub for all the farmers within the 'mid' point of all the other vilages, and they would bring what they needed there, so they could trade and bring the stuff they got back. I see no reason why they wouldn't just herd there cattle/sheep/pigs all the way to emondds field to 'butcher' instead of having to make 300 trips with a bunch of meat that they have no possible way of eating it all.:P

 

I don't believe there is enough game in emonds field to support Everyone hunting for food, every day. There has to be some sort of meat production going on. Vegitables only last so long come winter... I don't think they are into canning. THough I'm sure they have cellars.. I think the inn keepers had one. :P I doubt they are all vegitarians.. they probably would have died along time ago if they were. ;)

[JenLenaMom]

I'm sure cloglord will correct me on my assumption if I'm wrong, but....

Isn't butchering done once a year, in the fall?  The animals that won't likely survive through the winter, are too old to produce in other ways (milk, eggs, offspring, etc) would need to be butchered before they became ill through the winter months.  I can remember my grandfather, dad and uncles butchering a hog to make sausage and it seems like (I was very small) it was fall.  SinisterDeath suggested the herds would be driven into the village, seems like perhaps all the village would participate, almost festival like.  If butchering is done only once a year there would be no need for one person to specialize, unlike a fletcher, a blacksmith, a thatcher, things that are skilled and needed year round.  Any animal that fell sick between butchering time would be no problem for one experienced farmer to butcher himself especially if he had sons or neighbors to assist him. 

Just a stray thought ;)

[trakand_01]

In old-english settlements, and generally across europe, yes the butchering was done once a year, and the meat dry-cured or salted and stored, to last through the winter. I'm not 100% sure that a 'butcher' as we know the term existed in these types of civilisation. I think they came along later, when types of refrigeration were developed (even be it 'cold rooms').

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, Trakand, it was cold storage and refrigeration that killed the butcher.

 

When meat only kept a short span of time, any sizeable community had a meat-cutting specialist, since they couldn't do their own.

[cloglord]

I'm sure cloglord will correct me on my assumption if I'm wrong, but....

Isn't butchering done once a year, in the fall?  The animals that won't likely survive through the winter, are too old to produce in other ways (milk, eggs, offspring, etc) would need to be butchered before they became ill through the winter months.

 

Dont' think of it as correction, think of it as historical interpretation, that's what I see it as anyway ;)

 

You are correct that butchering was often done once a year in the fall of the year, the reasons that you suggest aren't really the reasons though.  Old animals taste bad, and so do sick ones.  The first and most impportant reason for butchering at this time of year is that is allows for nature's refridgerator, to assist in the meat preservation process.  Many farmers only got fresh meat during the the winter, because that is when it could be kept frozen in the absence of artificial refridgeration.  The second reason is that many farmers in the US would free-range their livestock on open ranges during most of the year, this land was for free use and cost the farmer nothing in either currency OR labor.  The wintertime was a different matter however, one medium sized draft horse will eat up to 50 lbs (about 23 kilos) of hay and oats per day.  A milk cow will easily consume this much each day if fed a good dairying ration.  That's 3.75 tons of food per animal.  Considering that native grasses in the american US averaged about 1 ton of hey per acre, (about the size of a soccer field,) it was a lot of work to feed animals through the wintertime.  Butchering in late fall, lessened the number of animals, and therefore the amount of forage required for them.

 

With all that said, in most rural situations, beef is most prevalent in the wintertime, as the frozen winter months gave the family time to consume that amount of meat from that animal, pork predominated the other season's meat consumption, because it took most of the winter to fully cure, (infuse with salt and/or sugar) and because cured pork was generally more palatable and more shelf stable.  However, this is not nessecarily the case in more urban areas.  Beef would likely be more common in a city than on a farm, because of the butcher.  One steer would provide too much meat for a single family to consume before it would spoil in a non-winter month, but in a town that problem is solved, as the butcher would sell the individual cuts to many families in the community, and be able to move that amount of meat before spoilage would occur.  Even if a farm family was close to a city with a butcher, they would be unlikely to purchase meat from him, because they had already provdied themselves with meat from their own animals, and the expense of buying fresh beef off season would be an unnessecary expense.  Why buy an $10 steak from the butcher when you have a free ham steak at home?  That is unless you have some spare cash, and you're sick of ham....

 

 

[Orange Fescue]

Hmmm....now that you mention it, not only is there no butcher, there's no baker and no candlestick maker. Curiouser and curiouser.

[SinisterDeath]

I believe candles & bakers were something that was of a common knoweldge/comodity among the house wives of ol'. :P