Siuan's peculiar reaction...or lack thereof

[RobertAlexWillis]

I've wondered sometimes if RJ didn't want the scene to feel rushed, since Elaida certainly was trying to push things through before Siuan's supporters knew what was really going on.  There is an element of tactical speed (aka running around like chickens with your heads cut off  ::) ) in any coup d'etat.

[elmis]

As I've said many times before, I think that whole storyline (though intriguing, exciting, and so forth) is flawed. One side has the Law on their side, and the other doesn't. Cadsuane explicitly says so in the later books.  Specially when the hall, or the majority of it anyway, had evidence that the Dragon had been reborn and thus the last battle is right around the corner. Not to mention that later they, albeit very reluctantly, follow the Law when Egwene tricks them into letting her be the sole commander (different sections I'm sure, but still Tower Law).

 

But back to the first issue. I really don't see the whole 'Siuan > Whole Tower' reasoning in the rebelling sisters, especially in the White's, who should be all logic and little else. At least not to the extent that they go to open war inside the tower with sisters and warders dead on both sides. To back it even further up, the leaders of the rebellion didn't even like Siuan that much, Myrelle says as much during the first meeting in Salidar.

 

That leads me to believe that they rebelled to free her, mainly because they didn't agree with the what Elaida, and the legal majority of the hall, did. In that case, what I don't get is, why not wait it out, and have at least some influence on the hall when they were picking the new Amyrlin? Not to mention that it's pretty silly to have a Law that lets you depose an Amyrlin without a full hall present, in the first place.

 

As a side note, it's really not a coup d'etat, as it was an action that was taken with legal backing.

 

The more I think on it, the more I'm on Elaida's side. 

 

EDIT: Spelling, ect.

[mike2R]

Regarding the rebellion, Siuan says:

"Enough to meet the laws?" she sneered. "A bare minimum heavy with your friends and those you can influence or bully." ... "When the full Hall meets, with all the sitters, you'll learn your mistake. Too Late! There has never been rebellion inside the Tower; a thousand years from now they'll be using your fate to teach novices what happens to rebels."

 

Now given the situation and who she is I think we can say it's fair for her to use the word rebellion to cover the fairly narrow meaning of illegally deposing the Amarylin Seat - she has just made the case that the quorum that has deposed her is insufficient (although acknowledging it was a "bare minimum").  She is fighting for her life and is trying to convince those in front of her the decision against her will be set aside, and those who want to escape stilling should jump ship now. In effect she is saying "this may be Tower Law today - barely - but I still rule here and tomorrow this will be rebellion and I will have no mercy."

 

And I think it is probably true that there has never been a rebellion against a sitting Amarylin in the sense of her being forcibly bound and shielded without a "legitimate" ruling from the Hall.  From memory, what we learn from the secret histories is that there have been x number of rebellions before, and I'm fairly sure it was something like "each one ended with the Amarylin and the entire Hall resigning(? not being deposed by brute strength anyway)."

 

If all those rebellions were ended one stage before actual armed rebellion then this would be the first time an Amarylin has been forcibly deposed except when authorised by a legitimate decision by the Hall, since Siuan has explicitly made the case that this won't be considered legitimate, I don't think she is breaking the first oath.

 

This may be hairsplitting, but in the context this seems to be Siuan at the moment of maximum danger. She's still the fishergirl from the Maule and she knows how to fight for her life, even if the only weapons she has are words.

 

[BrainFireBob]

I had something of the impression that what Elaida did was of questionable legality because it was of ex post facto legality.

 

Siuan was deposed and Elaida raised at the same time. The Blue couldn't be present for the former, as I recall Tower law, but had to be there for the latter, meaning the "Hall" Elaida called not only was called via collusion, but did not have the quorum to address its entire agenda.

[professorskar]

Okay, first off how weird is it that three of us are re-reading the same book, at the same spot, at the same time, must be taveren.

 

It's about to get a lot weirder.  I'm rereading the series again as well, and I read that chapter last night and had the same question, and found it answered in a footnote on Encyclopedia WoT.

[CUBAREY]

[i had something of the impression that what Elaida did was of questionable legality because it was of ex post facto legality.

 

Siuan was deposed and Elaida raised at the same time. The Blue couldn't be present for the former, as I recall Tower law, but had to be there for the latter, meaning the "Hall" Elaida called not only was called via collusion, but did not have the quorum to address its entire agenda.][/i].

 

Not to be nit picky but,  ex post facto usually refers to an ex post facto law.  A law passed after a certain act is committed making that act retroactively  a criminal offense. Here a laefully constituted meeting of the Hall of Sitters (meeting with a bare minimium of members to make a quorum) deposed Suain. Its not an ex post facto act.

 

Second, I'm not definate but I doubt that the rules would have required the Blues or any single Ajah to be present in order to fave a Quorum. Usually a Quorum is a set percentage of the entire body (51%, 67%, and 80% are all used by different organizations). A quorum does not usually require the presence of a given party (Ajah in this case) as lond as the specified percentage of members is present.  This is because otherwise a party (an Ajah in the White Tower) could stop the raising of a new Leader (Amyrlen) even if all other  members (siiters were present and unanious in favoring a candidate by simply not attending a lawfully called meeting.

 

I think this is the reason why the Sitters in exile refused to ackowledge Suain was still Amerlyn once she was healed. They determind that she had been lawfully deposed.

[BrainFireBob]

I realize that.

 

By "I think" I meant "I recall."

 

There's two quorums involved- election of an Amyrlin takes a vote from a Sitter of each Ajah, in addition to a normal quorum.

 

Elaida, upon her illegal election, dissolved the Blue, claiming that validated her election ex post facto.

[CUBAREY]

Then I get your point.  Where is the one vote from every Ajah requirement cited-- I do'nt remember it being specificly addressed but then again I read the series 7 times and never thought about suain's "no succesful rebellion" quote until it was pointed out here.

[BrainFireBob]

One of Egwene's sections- gah, those all run together. Therefore, I say: After book five, but before book twelve.

[trakand_01]

Its in the chapter where Egwene is raised as Amyrlin. Sheriam and the others are rambling things at her, whispering things in her ear up until the very last minute, and it's during these discussions between her getting to Salidar and being raised that they tell her one from each Ajah must stand for her as Amyrlin.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Its in the chapter where Egwene is raised as Amyrlin. Sheriam and the others are rambling things at her, whispering things in her ear up until the very last minute, and it's during these discussions between her getting to Salidar and being raised that they tell her one from each Ajah must stand for her as Amyrlin

 

So even presuming the Rebel Siiters had the legal authority, Egwene's election is also technically illegal (since the Rebels never actually disbanded the Red Ajah and no Red Sitter voted for Egwene).

[RobertAlexWillis]

In practical terms, I think as soon as Rand pulled Callandor, Cicero's quote best describes the situation:

 

Silent enim leges inter arma.

 

(roughly: "Laws are dead in the face of arms")

[Tyrell]

So we got a pair of illegal Amyrlins heh.

 

Besides, I thought that, more than just 1 from each, raising an Amyrlin required the Greater Consensus, eg. a unanimous vote.

[BrainFireBob]

Egwene is also illegal- but she recognizes the validity of the Red Ajah, which is a step above and beyond Elaida.

 

Tyrell- the greater consensus among those present, who must represent both a quorum of numbers and a quorum of Ajahs.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Egwene is also illegal- but she recognizes the validity of the Red Ajah, which is a step above and beyond Elaida.

 

Actually, since she admits its existence, she doesn't even have the ex post facto argument that Elaida has.  By admitting the existence of the Red Ajah, she admits, from a purely logical standpoint, her own invalidity, since she was elected by a Hall without a quorum of the Ajahs she admits exist. (According to the glossary in A Crown of Swords, at least one Sitter from each Ajah must be present, and a minimum of eleven total, in order to constitute a full quorum.)

 

They're both illegal, since the Blue Ajah still existed when Siuan was deposed, and the Red Ajah still exists now ... but then, possession is nine tenths of the Law.  Whoever ends up with the Tower, she'll end up as Amyrlin.  And since Egwene is, ultimately, with Our Hero ...  ;)

[lou]

it depends on elaida's argument to the hall. if she presented enough evidence that suian was using the blue ajah in league with the dragon, and must have, as this was part of the stilling/deposing offense that put suian down. elaida immediately declares the blue ajah is no longer in existance. the hall would certainly not allow a sitter from the blue in these proceedings if they were suspect themselves.

[bjclinton]

my poor, poor hijacked thread.....

 

 

;D

[professorskar]

By the letter of the law, both of them are technically illegal Amyrlins, but they both have a good enough justification for it.  Both of them see themselves and their group as the true Aes Sedai, and the other as rebels.  Therefore, like lou said, Elaida can make the argument that Siuan's dealing negate her needing the Blue Ajah votes, and Egwene can say that since all of the Reds remained in the Tower, they're rebels and therefore not true Aes Sedai, thus with no legitimate Red sisters in existence, she doesn't need any to vote for her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

it depends on elaida's argument to the hall. if she presented enough evidence that suian was using the blue ajah in league with the dragon, and must have, as this was part of the stilling/deposing offense that put suian down. elaida immediately declares the blue ajah is no longer in existance. the hall would certainly not allow a sitter from the blue in these proceedings if they were suspect themselves.

 

As far as we know, the Hall doesn't have the power to declare that an Ajah no longer exists.  Of course, we don't have tomes of Tower Law to pore over, but even the Amyrlin's right to dissolve an Ajah is openly questioned (if not in front of Elaida) and, theoretically, an Amyrlin can declare whatever she wants.

 

So, Elaida couldn't legally have become Amyrlin without at least one Blue Ajah vote, and she couldn't legally dissolve the Blue Ajah until she was Amyrlin (if then).

 

Elaida is an illegal Amyrlin.

 

The same arguments apply to Egwene.  She cannot declare that the entire all sisters in the Red Ajah are rebels until she is Amyrlin, and she cannot become Amyrlin without at least one vote from the Red Ajah.

 

Egwene is an illegal Amyrlin.

 

The law has ceased to matter, except as a tool for manipulation.  In real life, the only rules are what you can do to them, and what they can do to you.  Force is, and always has been, the ultimate arbiter.

 

Laws only matter when everyone agrees to obey them, or people with enough power enforce them.

[professorskar]

The same arguments apply to Egwene.  She cannot declare that the entire all sisters in the Red Ajah are rebels until she is Amyrlin, and she cannot become Amyrlin without at least one vote from the Red Ajah.

 

I agree with you, I'm more trying to paint the picture of how Egwene and Elaida would spin it in such a way that they aren't illegal Amyrlins.

 

I think Egwene has a better claim in this department.  In her view (or in my view, if I was in her position, since I can't really know her view), she doesn't have to declare the Red Ajah rebels, they declared it themselves by illegally pulling down the legitimate Amyrlin (Siuan, obviously) and following a false one.  Therefore, from her perspective, any sisters who remained in the Tower are traitors, which include all the Red Ajah.  If every Red sister has committed treason, than they effectively no longer exist as an official Ajah, short of raising some Accepted to sisterhood and have her choosing the Red (which, although could theoretically happen, is not likely in Salidar).  As you said though, we don't have a Tower Law book, but Egwene can probably claim legality without a Red Sitters approval if all Red sisters rebelled against the Tower, which, to the Salidar crew, is exactly what happened.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I guess what I'm saying is, whoever wins the battle gets to spin it however they want.  In a purely legal, logical sense, neither one has a leg to stand on.  Its all about armies now.

[professorskar]

True enough.  Whoever is the last (wo)man standing will just have to calmly sweep the true events into the secret histories where no one will have to worry about it anymore.

[BrainFireBob]

Oh, they're neither one legal- but all Egwene awaits is a Red sitter to show . . .

 

Actually, there's an interesting argument to be made for the formation of the rebel Hall- if a new Hall, the Red Ajah is not yet included in their government- that's one for CUBAREY, as the lawyer, to mull on for fun.

 

I was bringing up Elaida's illegality because it amuses me- it's just so Elaida. "I'm going to use power I don't have to declare the thing keeping me from power powerless to do so, thus giving me the power to perform the act."

 

And people are surprised she thought the Tower would simply follow her dictates . . .

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I think Egwene has a better claim in this department.  In her view (or in my view, if I was in her position, since I can't really know her view), she doesn't have to declare the Red Ajah rebels, they declared it themselves by illegally pulling down the legitimate Amyrlin (Siuan, obviously) and following a false one.

 

 

Actually the rebel Hall determined that Siuan was legally impeached. They did this when Siuan was healed and claimed that she was still Amyrlin.

 

Quote:

 

Actually, there's an interesting argument to be made for the formation of the rebel Hall- if a new Hall, the Red Ajah is not yet included in their government-

 

Except the Rebel Hall does not consider itself a new Hall it considers itself the only legitimate Hall and believes itself bound by Tower law.

 

I agree with RAW "The law has ceased to matter, except as a tool for manipulation.  In real life, the only rules are what you can do to them, and what they can do to you.  Force is, and always has been, the ultimate arbiter. Laws only matter when everyone agrees to obey them, or people with enough power enforce them."

 

 

Now because I am a history buff and a lawyer I point out two things. When Egwene agreed that the Rebel sisters could negotiate with the Tower sisters her only pre-condition to a settlement was that Elaida had to be deposed. Now, when in the middle ages the Catholic Church found itself split and having two Pope's the schism was solved by declaring both illigitimate and electing a third Pope. Now, in our story who has tremendous prestige, been previously considered for the position, and now leads a group of sisters (possibly as large as 1/3 of all A.S.) that is sitting out the hostilities? Gentlemen and ladies I give you my choice for the Unified Amerilyn-- CADSUANNE OF THE GREEN AJAH, who happens to have the added benefit of being advisor, Voice and nanny to The Dragon Reborn.  Now I know it will not happen, but damn, it should. ;D ;D

 

[Mik]

Actually the rebel Hall determined that Siuan was legally impeached. They did this when Siuan was healed and claimed that she was still Amyrlin.

I think that viewpoint will change -both in the SAS & TAS Hall- when it becomes clear that the Black Ajah/Chosen had a big hand in the impeachment & had Elaida acting as a puppet (it's irrelevant she didn't know this)

 

Noone in their right mind can back Elaida then. That Egwene is technically not the Amyrlin then, won't matter... she's the only contender left standing -so to speak-.

 

 

And I agree with RAW;

Law only works when people choose to abide by it or if it's enforced.

When confilct takes over, it's all a matter of who wins that conflict, because history has shown that it has always been written by the winner. :)