The One Thing That Drives Me Nuts

[DuDZiK]

I've been reading the Wheel of Time Series for... oh... nigh on seven years now, and I've read through it at least 20 times - maybe more. Now before I get into what it is about the series I dislike so much, I want to make perfectly clear just how much I love the Wheel of Time. The creativity of the world that Mr Jordan created, his mastery of writing a compelling story/plot... I could go on and on about what I love about the series, but that's not what this thread is for  ;)

 

What drives me near insane whenever I read this series is the social interaction between the characters. Contrary to the rest of the series, there doesn't seem to be any diversity in how the characters interact with each other. To put it bluntly, the level of social ineptness makes me want to tear my hair out by the roots.

 

For the most part, the Wheel of Time world is a world of something near to bullies, or perhaps 'alpha dogs' is the better thing to say. Everyone has to be the leader, and everyone tries to do this by beating down everyone else by sheer force of will and words, as if that actually happens in real life. Then, when one character who is far down the list in terms of 'alpha dogs' explodes and lashes out the current 'alpha dog' says something like: "So you have some backbone, that's good, but don't let it go to far or I'll switch your bottom". To try and get their way they just have to gain some hold on the others and use it with blackmail or simple threats - usually backed up as well.

 

When someone or some group of people is obviously weak on the food chain, someone will occasionally try and teach them they have a backbone, and they in turn will come to be the alpha dog and act like bloody tyrants against those who would befriend them! The Kin is a perfect example of this. Nynaeve tries to make them stand up for themselves, and then some of them like Sumeko become arrogant and disrespect her and Elayne.

 

Some examples of what I am talking about: I just finished re-reading The Path of Daggers, and there came the time when Min mentioned how Sorilea beat her for not answering every question that she asked of her. Cadsuane with much the same behaviour with other people... again Min is caught up in this. And Siuan... oh I could have strangled her twenty times over before being stilled and deposed changed her, for the better IMO I might add.

 

And the amount of stereotyping, distrust, and racism between the groups of people astounds me. The Sea People loathe the Aes Sedai and the 'shorebound', and once they gain a hold on them they act like arrogant asses and constantly insult them and demean them. The Aiel show bias against all of the 'Wetlanders', and the 'wetlanders'/'shorebound' in turn show bias against both of them. No one actually tries to treat people with respect and dignity; no two groups of people seem to realize that perhaps uniting and respecting one another will greatly help in their struggle.

 

And the gender interaction... By the frosted beard of Odin it makes me want to kill myself! The men and women each think that the other gender is an entirely different species! Nynaeve and Egwene refuse to give Mat any sort of respect because they hold this imagine in their mind of Mat being like the scum you would wipe of your shoes. They view Rand like some obstinate child who can't think or act for himself without killing himself. All men need women to function, or else they're a danger to society. All women think they are the superior sex, and so too do all men. They all view the opposite sex as irrational, emotional, and plain incapable beings, and think they should be essentially governed by the opposite sex.

 

And everyone is so socially selfish! No one for one second ever tries to put themselves in another's shoes and act selflessly for them. Everything is about 'me me me'. When in Rhuidean, Egwene rails at Rand for disrespecting Moiraine when in my opinion he was venting his frustrations at her trying to constantly manipulate him. I'm telling you if I was constantly being treated like some stupid eight year old who had to be guided, and never once having MY opinion, or what I want to do taken into account, I'd be pretty pissed off too. The Maidens constantly try and force their beliefs on Rand, and there is no compromise. The fact that he was raised differently, and that their beliefs are not law and he should not be forced to observe them if he doesn't want to, never once enters into their minds.

 

Everyone has to have everyone act like they want them to. No one is allowed to have their own contrary opinion, and god help the person who does because they will virtually have a vendetta on their hands! Now the Aiel Wise Ones are trying to force Perrin into their way of thinking, saying he must come to them to be guided, or else he is disrespecting them. The fact that he might know better on some things; that they won't always be right; that he has a right to his own opinion doesn't seem to factor into their thoughts. The same thing applies with Aes Sedai and... just about everyone else. You must be guided by them: Rand, Mat, and Perrin must let themselves be guided by Moiraine, then Siuan, then Verin... Aviendha must let herself be guided by the other Aes Sedai after she disassembles her gateway and all women who learned how to channel outside the White Tower are 'wilders', even if they learned from their own formalized teaching system (i.e., wise ones or windfinders).

 

I could rant for quite some time, and pick out fifty examples from every book, but I think by now my point has come across. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I wouldn't want them to. I think everyone should be entitled to their own opinion, and everyone has the right to develop their own opinion as they would and act upon it as they choose, which of course is why the social interactions between characters in the Wheel of Time series drives me up the wall... because that train of thought never seems to exist within any character. I can understand it if Mr Jordan was doing it intentionally to make a point... but I think he overdid it several times over.

 

Anyways, this is my first post in this forum, so go nice on me  :-[

[hurryupnwait]

I think that while RJ may have gone a little overboard, he has not missed the mark.  I have few married friends who's wives practically have them on leading strings.  There is racism, and stereotypes in the minds of most people.  It might not be as accepted as it was 50 years ago, or as apparent, but it is still there.  I think the bottom line is people are different, and everyone likes to think their way of doing things or viewing the world is the best.

 

Besides Ishy has worked for 3000 years to sow the seeds of division, distrust, and strife among the peoples of Randland. (see Trolloc Wars, 100 years war, fall of Malkier,etc.)

[Jonn]

Power and the dynamics of power is one of the major themes in the series. All of the main characters wrestle with the burden of managing their own personal powers, be it authoritative or actual physical power.

 

This is a world quote different from ours and one of the major differences is that the power of women is tipped more in their favor in RJ's world. The most powerful people on the planet as a class are the Aes Sedai, women who can channel. The weakest of them is worth any 3 soldiers in a physical confrontation. The strongest can easily give pause to a thousand men. This creates a very different social dynamic than what exists in our world.

[aevogt]

I'm making these number up to make a point.  I know they are not accurate.

 

There are what, maybe a thousand characters.  There are maybe 20 million people in the Westlands. 

 

Why would the story focus on anyone but the alpha dogs of the world.  Those are the ones who drive the plot. 

 

I'll give you an example.  There are two young women associated with serving tables at an inn.  One dances and flirts with Mat for a part of one chapter.  The other left that behind and is in the process of taking over the White Tower.

 

I know which one I would rather read about.

 

I think RJ hit the nail pretty much on the head with how his characters interact. 

 

Not to sound overly critical of your point, though.  The fact that they could solve many of their human issues by taking a deep breath and actually talking is something that as the reader, the outsider, irritates me a little as well.

 

 

[n00l3y]

Very true, DuDZiK, and I share your frustration towards the utter retardation of the characters. However, I forgive some points in the series, such as racism and misinterpretation of customs. Such things, although overtly frequent in WoT, do happen in real life, so...fine.

 

One thing I do get annoyed about in WoT, is effectively your point on characterisation. From both a leisurely as well as literary perspective, this aspect has caused WoT to suffer greatly in my eyes.

 

For one, as you've said, they don't change. Faile still complains about Perrin's compassion, he still doesn't get it. Perhaps I'm being sexist, but characters such as Egwene and Elayne deserve to be smacked again and again and again. Were they in the shoes of the ta'veren, they'd be dead, humiliated, captured, or all of the above.

 

Before I begin to rant, I shall move to your point of ever-present conflicts; the Alpha-problem. Yes, aevogt, your point bears much merit, but there are 2 problems. Firstly, the fact that stubborness does not make one influential. Secondly, the number of alpha dogs.

 

I believe that it's perfectly fine for an author to focus on the influential ones. But he seems to unfairly tie influence with stubborness, that only those so stuck-up and moronic will ever be great.

 

Now, the number of alpha dogs. Annoying. Read Tolkien, Robin Hobb, Terry Goodkind, George R.R. Martins, you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about. It is possible to have a few alpha dogs who don't always steer the story, coming in and out of the central theme. It is also possible to have cooperative alpha dogs (Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli), who don't spark conflict with every other chapter. No such thing in WoT, which, instead of making it interesting, makes it irritating to my mind.

 

I'd like to add that, despite all this, WoT is still a brilliant book. But all books have flaws, and characterisation is the major one, I feel.

[DuDZiK]

That's what I think as well, among other things.

 

What really irks me is the way people behave a) to try and become the Alpha, and b) when they are the alpha. They're bullies. 'Do what I say or I'll make you wish you've never been born!' is the typical statement someone will make to one of their 'obstinate' underlings. They have no compassion for other people. There's not one selfless person in this series, again except for maybe Lan and now Egwene at the end of Knife of Dreams.

 

Never once does a character say or think: "I wonder what _______ thinks, or wants, or needs?" but instead say or think: "I want ______ to do this; _____ needs to be guided by me/us" etc etc. Cadsuane said to Rand that she would do everything in HIS interest, and not the Towers, but I have yet to see any indication that she was sincere; not because I think she is doing what she thinks is in the Tower's interest, but because she is doing what SHE thinks is in Rand's best interest.

 

Then there's the public humiliation factor, and this especially works against Rand. How many people purposefully try and take a shot at Rand, in public, and are not always doing so out of pure fun? The Maidens are horrible about this and if I were Rand I'd strained to my limit trying not to beat them into a bloody pulp with the Power. Cadsuane is doing it now as well.

 

I could tolerate this all if there was some slight variation or diversity amongst the characters regarding this, but there barely is. In terms of social interaction, there are two kinds of people and each person will behave exactly as that group dictates: those who try and bully and be the alpha, and those who are the bullied. The Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Sea Folk are the three largest groups that are in the first category, and people like Perrin, Gareth Bryne and Lan are in the second. Consequently, the people in the second category are the characters I like the most.

[burog25c]

Sigh, over the course of several books now I've hoped and prayed that just once, someone would get a smacking. The one I've always prayed hardest for is for Rand to stand up and tell Cads, "Hey, you remember how you said you would help? Well it's time to start, and stop trying to drag me down in front of everyone."

 

Of course no sooner would he get it out of his mouth then she would start up with the whole 300+ year old AS... more warders than you have years...

 

Rand would then snap totally and not only cut her off From the OP, but bind her so tightly away from it it would take the entire White tower a thousand years to undo the knots, all while leaving her just a little glimmer of Power... just enough she could know it's there and never touch it.

 

oops.. personal fantasy there. hahaha.. but yes.. over the books I've been rather ticked off because no one will bow to anyone.. especially when it's obvious the other person may no a little more than they do. (Mat should have long ago tied up elayne and Egwene and shipped them off to have their respective bottoms paddled).

[Jonn]

It's a hard world sometimes. If everything depends on you, all eyes look on you...you are either going to be strong or dead.

 

When you have a choice between hard, and impossible, there isn't much you can appear as other than a bully. When power is at stake, you have to do your best to manage it.

 

Take Rand for example. He is probably the most powerful human on the planet in all categories. Still whatever he does, he is bound to be seen as a monster, a savior and everything in between. In Knife of Dreams he tried to appear merciful and caring when he was in Tear, by trying to lift those two boys up from poverty, but Min saw that this would probably lead to their deaths. Now from a certain perspective, you could see Rand's gesture as kind, but misguided. How many other people could he help if he could spare two seconds to issue an order or two. Then again his actions could be seen as rather arrogant and whimsical by someone else's eyes.

 

People act with jealousy, and selfishness all the time, even when by all accounts they shouldn't have the right to. What more if a person is placed in a position of ability to affect the course of events in and around their lives?

 

It's always dangerous to judge from the outside, how someone should react. I honestly do get so frustrated by these characters sometimes...but I keep going, because you know what? People in real life aren't much different. If you don't feel that way, then I guess you live in a much different world than I know.

 

I think it is these "flaws" of character that make this series so real. People don't act like it's a bedtime tale where everything is resolved by the end of a chapter. In real life, people are petty and cruel, judgmental and defensive, and at the heart of it all these same people are capable of great good, kindness, moments of clarity and wisdom that could change despair to hope in the space of a sentence.

 

It's touching that people have sympathy and feelings for some of these characters, that's the point, I think, but I think we could all learn to look at things from a different perspective every now and then. We can't know every angle like it's in a book after all.

[professorskar]

I agree with a lot that has been said.

 

But hey, Loial is a pretty decent guy :p

[DuDZiK]

Loail's an Ogier, he doesn't count :P

 

Actually now that I think about, I remember the sparring match between Loail's mother and Erith to see who would be the 'alpha' there. I ask again (to everyone in general, not you specifically), why do they have to do that? Could they both not be united in their love for Loail and just accept being on the same level, or whatever level they are at? Furthermore, why should they care who is the 'alpha'?

 

It's a hard world sometimes. If everything depends on you, all eyes look on you...you are either going to be strong or dead.

 

There's a difference between being strong, and being a jerk.

 

When you have a choice between hard, and impossible, there isn't much you can appear as other than a bully. When power is at stake, you have to do your best to manage it.

 

I'm not talking about power management, or anything like that. I'm talking about plain social interaction, when matters of power should not matter. For pete's sake even close friends and lovers seem to display streaks of being jerks or bullies, or trying to be the alpha. Mat and Tuon? Perrin and Faile? Nynaeve and Lan?

 

Take Rand for example. He is probably the most powerful human on the planet in all categories. Still whatever he does, he is bound to be seen as a monster, a savior and everything in between. In Knife of Dreams he tried to appear merciful and caring when he was in Tear, by trying to lift those two boys up from poverty, but Min saw that this would probably lead to their deaths. Now from a certain perspective, you could see Rand's gesture as kind, but misguided. How many other people could he help if he could spare two seconds to issue an order or two. Then again his actions could be seen as rather arrogant and whimsical by someone else's eyes.

 

Again, this isn't the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

People act with jealousy, and selfishness all the time, even when by all accounts they shouldn't have the right to. What more if a person is placed in a position of ability to affect the course of events in and around their lives?

 

SOME people act that way SOME of the time. Alot of characters in this series seem to take it beyond what my life's experience tells me should be the norm.

 

Furthermore, some of the situations where characters display this 'alpha' tendency seem to make no sense, in that it's completely unnecessary.

 

Take the example of Min and Sorilea. Why does she feel the need to beat Min because she doesn't answer her questions, especially when the questions were personal in nature? Why? What reason does she have in doing so? The way it was portrayed, Sorilea did so just because she didn't like that Min was not answering her questions, because she did not obey Sorilea's orders.

 

If you want more examples I'd be more than happy to oblige.

 

It's always dangerous to judge from the outside, how someone should react. I honestly do get so frustrated by these characters sometimes...but I keep going, because you know what? People in real life aren't much different. If you don't feel that way, then I guess you live in a much different world than I know.

 

I agree. I did say at the beginning that I still love this series, and continue to re-read everything. It's just that, as you say, it can be very frustrating at times.

 

And you're also right, my experience in life tells me that though some people, some of the time may exhibit some of these characteristics... it's only some people, some of the time, and to a far less extreme degree. My whole point is that I would think that an author of such creativity would be able to show a bit more... diversity in how characters interact on a normal level.

 

I think it is these "flaws" of character that make this series so real. People don't act like it's a bedtime tale where everything is resolved by the end of a chapter. In real life, people are petty and cruel, judgmental and defensive, and at the heart of it all these same people are capable of great good, kindness, moments of clarity and wisdom that could change despair to hope in the space of a sentence.

 

I guess I have a more optomistic view of life...  ;D

 

I agree that showing flaws makes it seem more 'real', though it IS a fantasy  series :P, but as I also said before I just think that it's overdone; it's too extreme, and there isn't enough social diversity as there should be if the aim was to seem 'real'.

 

It's touching that people have sympathy and feelings for some of these characters, that's the point, I think, but I think we could all learn to look at things from a different perspective every now and then. We can't know every angle like it's in a book after all.

 

I don't mean to appear that I am taking things in the books too literally; that's something I try not to do, even if I do get so into a book I really like... and I really like this one 8)

 

my concern is more of a literary criticism; I just think that it's too repetitive, and there isn't enough diversity. That's what makes it so frustrating, because it's there every chapter from almost every character. It just beats me into the ground... like one rock at a time is being thrown on my back to carry.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

My whole point is that I would think that an author of such creativity would be able to show a bit more... diversity in how characters interact on a normal level.

 

 

But that is the point. These are not normal characters dealing with normal events.  They are dealing with "the Last Battle" Armageddon COMING IN A FEW YEARS- to a few months, the characters world's are being turned upside down and ripped apart. So how would very strong willed individuals with preconceived notions, biases and prejudices deal in a crisis? By forgetting their prejudices and dealing with each other as rationale human beings worthy of respect. I hardly think so, now the people back in the Two Rivers and Andor prior to the beginning of the story acted more normally but that is  because they lived in "normal" times. 

 

Moreover, that the groups distrust each other and view each other with a bit of contempt is human nature. Just look at a newspaper or a TV show that discusses American attitudes towards Europeans and visversa (and we know each other pretty well and have been allies for a long time).

[anamul]

I STILL SAY EGEWENE IS A *&@#$*&.

Well, yeah, bullying does tends to get a bit over bearing in WOT sometime. Sorela and Cadsuanue is the worst.

 

Even for Armagadden or something like that, it isn't real. Take world war 2 for instance...that wasn't any less threataning. IF lost we would have been living in a Dark world now. But I am sure the leader of the alliens didn't act this way.

 

You don't threaten the future wife of the CARACARN (or President). For that matter, u have no right to interrogate any one who is in your side let alone a powerfull entity(like Min and Rand).

Min viewings gives her a whole new status.

 

I don't know wheather any of you watched "Star trek Enterprise". Captain Archer and his crew dealts with a situation far worse than WOT. I didn't see any one trying to bully Archer or Archer bullying every one is sight. He listened to advice of his inferior officer, plotted with them, not against them.

 

Ah well, I seems to be way to out of the main subject.

________________________________________________________________

We can not save humanity without holding into what makes us human.....Archer to T-pol.

 

[trakand_01]

That's what I think as well, among other things.

 

What really irks me is the way people behave a) to try and become the Alpha, and b) when they are the alpha. They're bullies. 'Do what I say or I'll make you wish you've never been born!' is the typical statement someone will make to one of their 'obstinate' underlings. They have no compassion for other people.

Never once does a character say or think: "I wonder what _______ thinks, or wants, or needs?" but instead say or think: "I want ______ to do this; _____ needs to be guided by me/us" etc etc.

 

Cadsuane said to Rand that she would do everything in HIS interest, and not the Towers, but I have yet to see any indication that she was sincere; not because I think she is doing what she thinks is in the Tower's interest, but because she is doing what SHE thinks is in Rand's best interest.

 

Then there's the public humiliation factor, and this especially works against Rand. How many people purposefully try and take a shot at Rand, in public, and are not always doing so out of pure fun? The Maidens are horrible about this and if I were Rand I'd strained to my limit trying not to beat them into a bloody pulp with the Power. Cadsuane is doing it now as well.

 

For me, perhaps it is being British or perhaps from my interest in Medieval and Tudor history, but the way the characters behave is very like medieval england - the Lord or King made the rules, and everyone else obeyed. King Henry Viii was possibly the most prolific in this when he banned Catholicism and started the Church of England, with himself at the head - all because the Pope wouldn't annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon and enable him to marry Anne Boleyn, who he subsequently had beheaded when she failed to give him a male child (amongst other charges).

 

It is annoying at times, I agree with you however I feel it is also imperative to the story - they ARE the main characters, and if they just stood there and said "This is what i want to do, but, yeah... hmmm... ok we'll do it your way instead" they wouldnt be very good as leaders.

 

Also the bit about none of them ever getting a beating... Rand has  had several beatings, you mention one of them (the Maidens) in your post, and he was taken by the AS, and stabbed by Ishy, and again by Fain. Similarly Mat was hung from a tree, and Perrin shot through the shoulder with a Whitecloak arrow, not to mention having his wife kidnapped.

 

I agree that the women in particular are selfish and stubborn, they put themselves in needless danger ON PURPOSE because they dont think before they act. That annoys me too, especially with E/N. I guess the fact of the matter is though, the boys ARE ta'veren, the girls arent. Yes, if the girls were they'd be killed etc as you said, but they're not, which is why they've managed to get away with it (relatively so) so far.

 

Just my opinion =)

 

With Cadsuane, yes she's infuriating at times, but she sees Rand as a child, which really he is - he was thrown into this blind, only around a year ago, and his guidance (Moiraine) is seemingly dead. He needs guidance. If you think about a parent with a child finding it's way, not always does the child actually know what is best for it / you / the group, so the parent makes the decision, based on their wider experience. "Mother knows best" is the phrase, and this is what Cadsuane is applying. She knows Rand has to be at TG, she knows certain prophecies have to be met and certain circumstances need to be in place, she probably knows even more than we do, and we know more than Rand. She is making decisions in his best interest and yes, that is based on her judgement, but as she is the eldest AS she has significantly more experience and merit to draw on than anyone else available.

[DuDZiK]

But that is the point. These are not normal characters dealing with normal events.  They are dealing with "the Last Battle" Armageddon COMING IN A FEW YEARS- to a few months, the characters world's are being turned upside down and ripped apart. So how would very strong willed individuals with preconceived notions, biases and prejudices deal in a crisis? By forgetting their prejudices and dealing with each other as rationale human beings worthy of respect. I hardly think so, now the people back in the Two Rivers and Andor prior to the beginning of the story acted more normally but that is  because they lived in "normal" times.

 

They were all acting the way they are before they ever thought the Last Battle was coming. In that there isn't much, if any, change. And this still doesn't have anything to do with my points. I am talking exclusively about social interaction here and how many of the characters act the EXACT same; even using the EXACT same train of thought, and expressions, and actions. Even a slight diversity in this would alleviate some of the frustrations I have.

 

Moreover, that the groups distrust each other and view each other with a bit of contempt is human nature. Just look at a newspaper or a TV show that discusses American attitudes towards Europeans and visversa (and we know each other pretty well and have been allies for a long time).

 

What about the fact that there is basic friendship or at least benevolent behaviour between people of the various groups? Elayne and Nynaeve found a friendship with the Sea Folk on the ship to Tanicho and people like Mat, Egwene, Berelain, and others have found friends among the Aiel.

 

And some of the behaviours that these groups show towards others are no different than the behaviours they exhibit amongst their own people. How does this factor into your assertion?

 

For me, perhaps it is being British or perhaps from my interest in Medieval and Tudor history, but the way the characters behave is very like medieval england - the Lord or King made the rules, and everyone else obeyed. King Henry Viii was possibly the most prolific in this when he banned Catholicism and started the Church of England, with himself at the head - all because the Pope wouldn't annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon and enable him to marry Anne Boleyn, who he subsequently had beheaded when she failed to give him a male child (amongst other charges).

 

I am currently a history undergrad and have also studied medieval and Tudor England  ;)

 

But what does this have to do with basic social interaction? I wasn't saying I was frustrated with how those in power as kings or queens wielded their power, I was saying I was frustrated with how people who were not in a situation where politics was necessary acted in a way that I find not only unrealistic, but incredibly frustrating because it repeats amongst many characters and situations.

 

It is annoying at times, I agree with you however I feel it is also imperative to the story - they ARE the main characters, and if they just stood there and said "This is what i want to do, but, yeah... hmmm... ok we'll do it your way instead" they wouldnt be very good as leaders.

 

I don't even think I mentioned the main characters (IMO the only 'main' characters are Rand, Mat, and Perrin; the rest I qualify as semi-major).... the examples I listed involved the semi-major characters like Sorilea, Cadsuane, the Maidens around Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve, Elayne, the Sea Folk, the Wise Ones, and the minor Aes Sedai characters.

 

Also the bit about none of them ever getting a beating... Rand has  had several beatings, you mention one of them (the Maidens) in your post, and he was taken by the AS, and stabbed by Ishy, and again by Fain. Similarly Mat was hung from a tree, and Perrin shot through the shoulder with a Whitecloak arrow, not to mention having his wife kidnapped.

 

When did I say anything about them never getting a beating?

 

I agree that the women in particular are selfish and stubborn, they put themselves in needless danger ON PURPOSE because they dont think before they act. That annoys me too, especially with E/N. I guess the fact of the matter is though, the boys ARE ta'veren, the girls arent. Yes, if the girls were they'd be killed etc as you said, but they're not, which is why they've managed to get away with it (relatively so) so far.

 

Again, I am talking about the basic social interactions, and the trends that began before their being ta'varen was ever evident.

 

Just my opinion =)

 

With Cadsuane, yes she's infuriating at times, but she sees Rand as a child, which really he is - he was thrown into this blind, only around a year ago, and his guidance (Moiraine) is seemingly dead. He needs guidance.

 

Guidance can be given simply. Did Moirane ever go out of her way to embarass him, to beat him? But Rand doesn't need guidance, he needs good advice that he can trust. What's the point in Rand being the one prophecy says is the only one who can win the Last Battle if other's guide his life for him? And you can give advice using calmness and logic and have Rand listen without doing the things Cadsuane does. You can sit him down in private and explain things. Treat him with respect and dignity, tell him your reasoning, and have him give his opinion and reasoning and work out something between the two of you. Then he feels that he is being listened to and respected and that his opinion counts for something with you but you will also be willing to give your advice; say he's wrong when you think he's wrong and say what you think he should do without compelling him to do it; and he will be more than willing to seek your counsel again in the future. When you insult him, beat him, disrespect him, make his opinion seem like it's worth what's on the bottom of his shoes, why would he want to seek Cadsuane's advice? The only reason why he keeps her close is because of Min's viewing.

 

If you think about a parent with a child finding it's way, not always does the child actually know what is best for it / you / the group, so the parent makes the decision, based on their wider experience.

 

True, but how often did you parents treat you like Cadsuane treats Rand with frequency? My parents did everything that I listed above, and is why to this day I will seek their advice when I need it or want it.

 

"Mother knows best" is the phrase, and this is what Cadsuane is applying.

 

More like "mother knows best, and you don't know anything you stupid boy, now come here so I can slap you, and let's go to the mall so I can tell everyone what a crude and stupid boy you are" ::)

 

She knows Rand has to be at TG, she knows certain prophecies have to be met and certain circumstances need to be in place, she probably knows even more than we do, and we know more than Rand. She is making decisions in his best interest and yes, that is based on her judgement, but as she is the eldest AS she has significantly more experience and merit to draw on than anyone else available.

 

Does that give her the excuse to treat Rand the way she does? I don't condone that behaviour from anyone, to anyone else. It's needless, and it's wrong; IMO.

[Tyrell]

Rand deserves everything he gets from Cadsuane, he's turning more and more into an arrogent S-O-B that he desperately *NEEDS* someone to give him a kick back into reality, to teach him laughter and tears, to be human and all that, y'know? Rand just doesn't respond to people giving him advice, his head is way too big for plain old advice, he *needs* cadsuane paddling him before he'll stop acting like a total twat.

 

As for the Maiden's embarressing him; that's just their way - they see him as a little brother. Sorellia, you know the Aiel don't see a beating as very much at all, for them shame and anything to do with honor is far far worse than anything physical - remember they didn't really give a damn that the Aes Sedai beat Rand, but they were in a rage that they kidnapped him when they were suppossed to be an embassy.

[DuDZiK]

Rand deserves everything he gets from Cadsuane, he's turning more and more into an arrogent S-O-B that he desperately *NEEDS* someone to give him a kick back into reality, to teach him laughter and tears, to be human and all that, y'know? Rand just doesn't respond to people giving him advice, his head is way too big for plain old advice, he *needs* cadsuane paddling him before he'll stop acting like a total twat.

 

I disagree that he 'needs' such treatment. I don't think that it's necessary for her to use these means to obtain her goal. Do we think Rand is so stupid that he won't understand simple reasoning if she sits him down and properly explains to him that eh path he has started down is a dakr one? At the very least that should have been tried, and if that fails and he is too stubborn to see reason then by all means break out the club; but at least try reasoning with him first. And of course the fact that Rand is just as bad as Cadsuane doesn't help with my frustration that all these characters behave in the exact same way.

 

As for the Maiden's embarressing him; that's just their way - they see him as a little brother. Sorellia, you know the Aiel don't see a beating as very much at all, for them shame and anything to do with honor is far far worse than anything physical - remember they didn't really give a damn that the Aes Sedai beat Rand, but they were in a rage that they kidnapped him when they were suppossed to be an embassy.

 

Again, I understand why the Maidens and the Aiel act the way they do in the context of the books, but this doesn't alleviate any of my frustrations I have that there are so many characters and people who act in this way. I mean, why aren't there more Perrins, or Loails, or Lans, or Verins, or Reannes - people who don't use force unless it's necessary, people who are shy, people who are generally tolerant... if innocent and ignorant in the case of the first two on that list.

[CUBAREY]

Verins, or Reannes - people who don't use force unless it's necessary, people who are shy, people who are generally tolerant... if innocent and ignorant in the case of the first two on that list.

 

PEOPLE WHO ARE SHY, INNOCENT ETC., WOULD BE EATEN ALIVE BY DARKFRIENDS, TAREANS, CARHENNANS, ETC.  Its a pretty rough world out there outside of the Two Rivers,  even your innocent Perrin has a dark-side when Faile's safety is at stake. Plus all the young characters (except Avi) at first were kind rational innocent and naive, until they learned that a quick sword hand or a lightning stroke is usually required to get others to behave reasonably. 

[Tyrell]

 

Do we think Rand is so stupid that he won't understand simple reasoning if she sits him down and properly explains to him that eh path he has started down is a dakr one?

 

 

Yes. Rand's head has now swolen to the size of a small planet.

[Harmless Bandit]

 

Do we think Rand is so stupid that he won't understand simple reasoning if she sits him down and properly explains to him that eh path he has started down is a dakr one?

 

 

Yes. Rand's head has now swolen to the size of a small planet.

 

 

If that were so, he would have been dead meat a long time ago. You are suggesting that Rand has become so arrogant it has clouded his senses? Preposterous. If you want to know the meaning of arrogant, look to Egwene.

Come to think on it, I'm not sure whether you are serious or joking. He's not perfect, he's bound to make some mistakes, but I don't know how a stupid person can come up with a scheme like cleansing the Source.

 

IMHO, what people perceive as arrogance on Rand's part is his impatience with nearly all of the people who surrounds him (Aes Sedai, nobles, commoners etc). They are busy playing their little stupid games, without realising (or ignoring) that the Last Battle is upon them.

Rand is aware that he doesn't have much time on his hands, so he decides to throw diplomacy out of the window, if it can make his quest faster.

 

Kinda off topic, but I couldn't help it.

 

[Tyrell]

Classic example of Rand being an arrogent S-O-B? Look at the chapter when he visits Tear in KoD.

[Orange Fescue]

Loail's an Ogier, he doesn't count :P

And you criticize the characters for being racist. First that lynch mob chases him through the streets because they've stereotyped all large non-human humanoids (a term which is inherently racist/speciesist in the context of this post), now you post that Ogiers "don't count". Tsk, tsk, tsk. When will the ogierphobia end?

[DuDZiK]

PEOPLE WHO ARE SHY, INNOCENT ETC., WOULD BE EATEN ALIVE BY DARKFRIENDS, TAREANS, CARHENNANS, ETC.  Its a pretty rough world out there outside of the Two Rivers,  even your innocent Perrin has a dark-side when Faile's safety is at stake. Plus all the young characters (except Avi) at first were kind rational innocent and naive, until they learned that a quick sword hand or a lightning stroke is usually required to get others to behave reasonably. 

 

I'm talking about social interaction here, not heroic action or what you should do when backed into a corner by enemies and evil.

 

 

Do we think Rand is so stupid that he won't understand simple reasoning if she sits him down and properly explains to him that eh path he has started down is a dakr one?

 

 

Yes. Rand's head has now swolen to the size of a small planet.

 

That means he's arrogant, that doesn't mean he's stupid. Frankly I don't think anyone can say with certainty - and be right to be certain - when we have no evidence that Rand would or would not listen. When's the last time someone bothered to try reasoning with him? Has anyone throughout the entire series tried it?

 

Loail's an Ogier, he doesn't count :P

And you criticize the characters for being racist. First that lynch mob chases him through the streets because they've stereotyped all large non-human humanoids (a term which is inherently racist/speciesist in the context of this post), now you post that Ogiers "don't count". Tsk, tsk, tsk. When will the ogierphobia end?

 

:P = joking, for future reference.

 

And I love how you leave out the rest of the post where I was serious, and essentially said that they DO count and that they are no better than the human characters in the fashion I described.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I'm talking about social interaction here, not heroic action or what you should do when backed into a corner by enemies and evil.

 

All the major characters are a bit paranoid.  All see darkfriends, the Choosen, or simple self-interested ninny's around every corner.  Which is probably a good thing as they are around every corner.  Since you can really only totally trust two or three people at most your "social" interactions with the general world is going to be quite slanted.  And to the fact that all the main characters are quite powerful or important in there own right and we get a story where characters tend to be curt with each other and untrusting.

[professorskar]

 

:P = joking, for future reference.

 

And I love how you leave out the rest of the post where I was serious, and essentially said that they DO count and that they are no better than the human characters in the fashion I described.

 

Heh, I think he was joking too...at least, I can't picture anyone using the term "ogierphobia" and being serious :p

[Orange Fescue]

 

:P = joking, for future reference.

 

And I love how you leave out the rest of the post where I was serious, and essentially said that they DO count and that they are no better than the human characters in the fashion I described.

 

Heh, I think he was joking too...at least, I can't picture anyone using the term "ogierphobia" and being serious :p

Thank you, Professor. You are a scholar and a gentleman.