Why have we been asking ourselves the wrong question?

[SqueeEGA]

 

I also point out that your "theory's" explaination of the limitations of god are only valid (at best) if god is seen as being within time and subject to its laws.  Almost all religions presume that Their God is outside of time/space.

 

 

As to my main point I was not saying that a non-sitiate entity could not be involved in important factual patterns as your examples show, they can. I was pointing out that they cannot "experience" those events as by definition to experience soomething you must be a conscious entity. I am not even claiming a moral superiority for satiant entities only pointing out the definitional limitations of the term you used.

 

The following are the definitions of experience in Dictionary.com:

 

–noun 1. a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something: My encounter with the bear in the woods was a frightening experience. 

2. the process or fact of personally observing, encountering, or undergoing something: business experience. 

3. the observing, encountering, or undergoing of things generally as they occur in the course of time: to learn from experience; the range of human experience. 

4. knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone: a man of experience. 

5. Philosophy. the totality of the cognitions given by perception; all that is perceived, understood, and remembered. 

–verb (used with object) 6. to have experience of; meet with; undergo; feel: to experience nausea. 

7. to learn by experience. 

—Idiom8. experience religion, to undergo a spiritual conversion by which one gains or regains faith in God. 

 

The most relevent is the 5th definition which talks of cognition and perception.

 

 

You do make a good point.  I suppose I did not clarify that my assumption is that "God" is space/time, "God" IS everything.  and by "God" I'm referring to the supreme consciousness, and not ascribing any other attributes that may be ascribed from religious institutions.

 

If my assumption is correct, then "God" is all of the non-sitiate entities.  therefore they would be aware of the event, and by definition #5 would count as experience.  but you have pointed out that I should probably define "God" before i begin.

 

my anti-religious diatribe was there to show that the religious cannot be trusted because they have religion, and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt until fully thought through by...well...you. (note: plural you)  I thought noting that Lucifer could not be a "Fallen Angel" was a good example of the bibles fallibility.  I thought that noting that thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands, of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion should lead one to be skeptical of the statements made by the religious.  So far, I have not committed any atrocities, so I trust me more than I trust the religious, especially when they make statements like "the earth is 13000 years old, or the notion that 2 people started the human race.  Or the notion that one man and his immediate family not only built a boat big enough to house all of the non-aquatic creature on the planet, but managed to acquire 2 of every non-aquatic creature, floated around on the flooded planet for 40 days and 40 nights, and then repopulated the earth.  Science proves that is not possible...the re-population thing, not the flooding thing.  There is the possibility that their assumptions are wrong.

 

Judgement is the lowest common denominator between all humans...that I have found so far, at least.  The lowest common denominator between all spoons is that the help us eat liquid food.  a spoon can serve a multitude of other purposes.  you could probably cut someones heart out with a grapefruit spoon if you wanted to, it doesnt mean thats why it was made...nor is eating soup, but you can still do it.  *shrug*

 

humans serve all kinds of other purposes.  Doctor, Lawyer, Scientist, but they all judge. 

 

we must surely agree that all of these definitions are based on assumptions, human assumptions, which are fallible.  I just think that making conclusions based on reason is more viable than making conclusions based on what some other human told you.

 

...keep going.

[Zachary]

So far' date=' I have not committed any atrocities, so I trust me more than I trust the religious, especially when they make statements like "the earth is 13000 years old, or the notion that 2 people started the human race.[/quote']

 

I'd just like to argue this particular point you make. Many religious people have committed no atrocities whatsoever. The way you are using 'religious' is boxing them all up in a group, whereas when you say 'I' you're referencing only yourself. Odds are that if you categorized yourself into a group, for example a part of a nation, you as a group would have committed some atrocities, or as part of students, as a group you would also have committed atrocities.

 

That's all I wanted to say. I don't really agree or disagree with anything else you said, but you can't compare apples to pine trees, which is what I believe you were doing.

[SqueeEGA]

This is true.  Some people of african descent lump all white people together as racist because it was white people who enslaved their ancestors.  its unfair, but the fact of the matter is, we dont have time to divide them all up into little groups.  "Black people dont hate jews, black people hate white people!" -chris rock

 

I cannot look at a christian and say, "your a good christian" or "youre a bad christian"  all i can say is that they are christians.  though it may seem so, im not trying to hate on the individual, just the institution.  I despise religion.  Religion is responsible for almost every war, and has been used as justification for injustice and persicution for thousands of years.  I am also from the bible belt, so i do have a rather substantial bias.  Around here it is difficult to find someone who claims to be christain, and is also a reasonable thought-filled person.  seriously when someone talks up the narnia movie, but then turns around and tells you that LotR is satanic cannot possibly have any thoughts of their own.  In my opinion not having thoughts of your own is the greatest slight that you can commit against "God".

 

granted the religious do choose to be in that group, unlike race, gender, or (yes im gonna say it) sexual orentation.

 

But you are correct, I am a member of the evil american empire, and have not up and left.  I am willing to take any flack from the rest of the world with regards to the actions of our government, after all, we put them there.

 

I will not, however, take any flack from the rest of the world when they complain about americans not leaving our country.  not going to visit theirs.  I dont think they realize how much stuff we have to see here.  silly europeans and their thinking we have no culture.  *snicker* we have an over abundance of culture.  thats probably why i stay.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

I just think that making conclusions based on reason is more viable than making conclusions based on what some other human told you.

 

Here again a slight definitional correction. Religious people do not base their conclusions on  "faith". Faith is not a logical construct  nor does it claim to be. Those who prefer science are the other hand choose to understand the world based on "scientific evidence". While the religious prefer to base their "faith" on what they assert is god-inspired scripture" you (plural) base your reason on science performed (which most people in either category are unqualified to judge) by others (Darwin, Einstein, Etc.,).  We all base are world view on what others tell us.

 

Quote"

 

I thought that noting that thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands, of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion should lead one to be skeptical of the statements made by the religious.

 

You are being too kind, the atrocities actually number in the millions.  But then again Atheists have committed quite a few themselves:i.e., Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot to name three. We should be skeptical of what anyone says, we all are biased and are ruled by our self-interest.

 

 

Quote:

 

Religion is responsible for almost every war, and has been used as justification for injustice and persecution for thousands of years. 

 

People are responsible for war, that they use religious beliefs as an excuse for war is deplorable but its not the religions fault. And Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and  Pol Pot, etc., used "science" to justify their actions. Blame the people not what they use for a justification!

 

 

Quote"

 

Judgement is the lowest common denominator between all humans...that I have found so far, at least.

 

There are four things more basic and common to all humans.  We breath, eat, have bowel movements and act in our individual self-interest.  We judge others when the fourth indicates that the ability to perform the first three can be hampered or helped by a given individual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jelly]

I have a feeling this would be much, much better on the debates and discussions bit.

[Alys Kinch]

yep. it's gotten to that point. wasn't it supposed to be fun to start?

[Jelly]

Well, sort of.  :D Of course I knew it would end up meaningful, but I'm not reading the posts anymore...there's so much quoting.. is it possible to move it, then?

[Alys Kinch]

ummm, i don't know who's in charge over here now. it used to be karana. i'll go check.

[safireblueyedwolfpup]

hahaha  the meaning of life huh?  A question that could spin around until it drives you insane.  Endless possibilities and one unanswered question only leading to another.

 

the meaning of life to me.....is to enjoy it!  ;) :D

[Zachary]

No no, don't put it in the Debates and Discussions. Then it just wouldn't feel right to chime in with silly, pseudo-on-topic comments. I'd still do it, but it wouldn't feel right.

[loki redfern]

arn't god and religion irrelevant.

[SqueeEGA]

to us, they should be.  Though the message IS good.  We should keep the message, but leave the dogma behind.  And we dont need to bother reminding "God" of how awsome he is.  I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.  We should do whats best for us first, and then try and help everything else...I guess what we really need to do is just *Read and Find Out*

 

What others tell you does affect your life, but you shouldnt live your life based soley on what some other human told you was the truth.  We are all unique.  Why should our connection to the divine be the same as everyone else?

 

I think that we should base what we believe on the expirences that we've had, and not let the 9000th translation of something somone said over 2 millenia ago control the way you live your life.

 

Quote:

 

There are four things more basic and common to all humans.  We breath, eat, have bowel movements and act in our individual self-interest.  We judge others when the fourth indicates that the ability to perform the first three can be hampered or helped by a given individual.

 

 

All animals eat, breathe, and defacate.  its not unique to humans.  maybe the purpose to animals is to do those three things.  when we breathe we emit co2 which nourishes plants.  eating helps control the populations of all living things, preventing any one species from becoming too large.  and when we poop we fertalize the soil. 

 

*shrug*  I'm not all the other animals, and therefore cannot possibly attain sufficient expierience to make reasonable conclusion on that matter.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

We should do whats best for us first, and then try and help everything else...I guess what we really need to do is just *Read and Find Out*

 

Abit selfish isn't.

 

Quote:

 

And we dont need to bother reminding "God" of how awsome he is.  I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.

 

Have you ever said "I love you" to someone who already knew that you felt this way (parents, a significant other). Did it not please them even tho they already knew it.  Praising God is the same thing. God is Abba (the ultimate "daddy") He knows he is awesome but appreciates when we manifest our love for him.

[Jelly]

Quote:

 

And we dont need to bother reminding "God" of how awsome he is.  I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.

 

Have you ever said "I love you" to someone who already knew that you felt this way (parents, a significant other). Did it not please them even tho they already knew it.  Praising God is the same thing. God is Abba (the ultimate "daddy") He knows he is awesome but appreciates when we manifest our love for him.

 

Has He told you He appreciates it? No? Then how do you know? He's not a human, He's probably not going to think the same way as us.

And isn't God supposed to love us all, as well? If He appreciates it when He's worshipped, isn't it logical for him to tell us all he loves us too?

 

[Tharengore]

It never works if you put religon and logic together. It never works, its like trying to fig out what goes throw the Spears sisters mind, or Paris's mind for that matter.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Has He told you He appreciates it? No? Then how do you know? He's not a human, He's probably not going to think the same way as us.

And isn't God supposed to love us all, as well? If He appreciates it when He's worshipped, isn't it logical for him to tell us all he loves us too?

 

Actually thats a rather personal question, but yes he has told me he appreciates it by the blessings he has granted. He does tell us all that he loves us, that some of us do not listen is our shortcoming not his. But it should be remembered that worship is an act of love not logic.

[Nightstrike]

Hmm... I've always believed there is a God, too. Even though there is lots of suffering in the world. I don't know why he/she would allow for such suffering, but I hope there are some really good reasons.

 

I can't see any reason there could NOT be a limitless mind/soul/whatever. This universe is most likely home to many intelligent species and there are probably other worlds/universes out there besides this one. Many beings are probably greater minds/souls/whatever than the greatest human. So why shouldn't there be a God as well?

[Jelly]

Personal? Well, I'm sorry, then. I didn't think it was, though.

I believe there's some sort of god, although more than one. Definately more than one. I believe more in the Greek/Roman one's than any others. But I just don't think they'd want worshipping.

[Shaidar]

Life is a finite system (within a larger system - the universe as a whole) which preserves its level of order over time, bypassing the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Sounds elegant.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

But I just don't think they'd want worshipping.

 

Actually, the mythology surrounding thr Greco-Roman gods is quite clear in that they insisted on worship and if they did not get it they would do some nasty stuff.

 

[Nightstrike]

Life is a finite system (within a larger system - the universe as a whole) which preserves its level of order over time, bypassing the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

 

Sounds elegant.

 

Actually I'm believing in George Berkeley's philosophy that matter doesn't exist at all. But, in your description of the universe, a human body isn't a closed system (if I remember/understand things correctly). So the second law of thermodynamics isn't bypassed at all. Our life processes gives off heat, which increases the entropy of the system (which is "the universe"). But I could be mistaken... ?

[Nightstrike]

Oops! Sorry, now I see what you meant! You meant that life decreases its internal entropy with the help of "food". My mistake!

[Myyrth]

Or what about Richard Taylors philosophy of radical subjectivism.

 

"Meaning is derived from doing what makes us happy"

 

that is all.

[loki redfern]

hehe ever feel like just saying : i know something you dont know

 

and then just leaving it at that..

[Kivam]

No no, don't put it in the Debates and Discussions. Then it just wouldn't feel right to chime in with silly, pseudo-on-topic comments. I'd still do it, but it wouldn't feel right.

 

Dude, get yer butt over to D&D.  Now.  We need more silly, pseudo on topic comments