Royal House of Andor

[Thunderbomb]

I have been wondering this for awhile in Knife of Dreams Elaida states that the Royal House of Andor was key to winning Tarmon Gai'don. Was wondering what major role they would play other then troop support , any ideas?

[Tyrell]

Rand is the son of Tigraine, who was, at the time of the fortelling, the Daughter-Heir of Andor, afaik.

[Thunderbomb]

I was figuring it had something to do with Elayne because Elaida was talking about getting her back under control, but i really didnt understand how the House could be the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don because the armies Rand has already massed, I figured outnumbered any force Andor could produce. But I guess I was off base =)

[elmis]

That was an old Fortelling right, that she remembered during KoD? In that case, I think this has to do with Tigraine Mantear aka Shaiel, Rand's real mother. Rand would be key to winning Tarmon Gai'don. Not sure if Rand would be 'royalty', but he's certainly connected to the Royal house. :)

 

Could probably have something to do with Elayne also, she's certainly played an important role foiling a major DO plan.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Interestingly (atleast to me, since I just noticed) Tigraine being Rand's ream mother makes Rand and Galad half-brothers, dunno why I didn't make the connection before.

[DemandredFO]

One the Structured Forums there is A Royal Line of Andor thread and some people, not mentioning cuz I could be misremembering are having a discussion on what the key role means.  I am pretty sure the foretelling refers to Rand of House Mantear and yes he is royalty, he just can't inherit the throne of Andor.  Eliada is in the habit of misinterpreting fortellings.  If she were objective she could've put Rand's likeness to Tigraine with her foretelling in Camelyn with the one when she made when she was accepted and made a guess in Camelyn.

[Davian93]

This just shows how much of an idiot that Elaida truly is.

[Thunderbomb]

This just shows how much of an idiot that Elaida truly is.

 

On this note Elaida talks about getting the old king of Illian his crown back after kidnapping him in the first place to demonstrate her power, but she must be afew fries short of a happy meal if she thinks she can retake a crown from Rand without giving him a very good reason. Also the fact that she is wanting to restore the Tower to its old glory when kings trembled if the Amyrlin Seat Frowned.

 

This all makes me wonder now, how will Elaida meet her demise.

[Harmless Bandit]

If House Mantear was still the "royal" (read ruling) House of Andor, Rand would most certainly be "royality", akin to Gawyn. However, as things stand now, House Mantear is only a High House (if that is the correct term), which makes Rand more or less a noble. He could be the Seat or something of that sort.

[Orange Fescue]

Elaida couldn't interpret a foretelling showing the way out of a paper bag but I have to cut her a little slack on this one. In light of what happened to House Mantear and the Andoran throne after Rand's mother and uncle ran off to the Waste and the Blight, respectively, there are at least three ways the foretelling's reference to "the Royal Line of Andor" could be interpreted.

 

1) House Mantear, the ruling house at the time of the prophecy. Since the missing Mantear Daughter-Heir is Rand's mother and Rand is the Dragon Reborn, most readers go with this interpretation. (Amazing what you can figure out when you know everything except who killed Asmodean, isn't it?) Since Elaida doesn't realize Rand is adopted and is a Mantear by birth (Possibly the only living Mantear. Are there any others left?), it's quite understandable that she doesn't get it.

 

2) House Trakand, the new ruling house that won out in the civil war that followed the Mantear regime's collapse. Since they're the new ruling house and the old ruling house may be extinct except for Rand, Elaida holds to this view. Given the information Elaida has, it's not an unreasonable view.

 

3) Any of the Andoran noble houses that claim descent from Queen Ishara, the founder of the Andoran state, could be described as belonging to "the Royal Line of Andor". They currently aren't the ruling house, just as Trakand wasn't the ruling house at the time of the prophecy and Mantear wasn't the ruling house before the previous dynasty lost the throne, but they are Ishara's descendants and in a succession crisis, all have a claim to the throne based on how many lines of descent they have from her. This is the broadest and most cautious view and I've never seen anyone claim to hold it, probably because we all know Rand Mantear is the Lord Dragon.

 

Elaida is a stupid, arrogant, prideful, foolish woman but, in this case, her assumption is not unreasonable. The problem is that Elaida interpreting her foretellings is a lot like me playing 3-card Monte--given three possible options, we'll each invariably pick one of the wrong ones.

[Davian93]

Rand is adopted and is a Mantear by birth (Possibly the only living Mantear. Are there any others left?), it's quite understandable that she doesn't get it.

 

Mantear is still in existance and is still a major house in Andor (one of the 19 needed to gain the throne)

 

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight 

  CHAPTER: 11 - Talk of Debts 

 

Choosing who would be Queen of Andor was quite simple, boiled down to essentials. There were over four hundred Houses in the realm, but only nineteen strong enough that others would follow where they led. Usually, all nineteen stood behind the Daughter-Heir, or most of them, unless she was plainly incompetent. House Mantear had lost the throne to Trakand when Mordrellen died only because Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir, had vanished and Mantear had begun running heavily to boy children.

 

5  TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight 

  CHAPTER: 13 - High Seats 

"My Lady Elayne," she said formally, "it gives me honor to present to you Lord Perival, High Seat of House Mantear." 

  A pretty, golden-haired boy in a plain blue coat jerked away from peering through the four-barreled kaleidoscope on a gilded stand taller than he was. He had a silver cup in his hand that Elayne hoped very much did not contain wine, or at least extremely well watered if it did. One of the side tables held several trays laden with pitchers and cups. And an ornate teapot she knew might as well be filled with water. "My pleasure, my Lady Elayne," he piped, blushing and managing a credible bow despite a little clumsiness in handling the sword belted to his waist. The weapon looked much too long for him. "House Mantear stands with House Trakand."

 

 

[raydurz]

So what relations is Perival to Rand? A cousin?

[vbama]

Ok, I know that a lot of ppl don't follow this theory, but here is mine on the Royal House of Andor being the key to TG.

Elayne is pregnant with Rand's kid. I belive the kid will be born on the rocks at SG, which in turn leads to the Dragon's Blood on the rocks (meaning his child, not his actual blood). Another thing is when he was bleeding in the earlier books and tells Moraine to tale him to SG so his blood can drop, which she replies that prophesy has a way of not meaning want you think.

Flame away, just my 2 cents  :)

[CUBAREY]

Just like to point out that not only is Rand a Mantear but so is Galad. Moreover, by rights Galad would seem to have the best claim to being the head of Mantear (not only is he older the Rand but is legitimate).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[RobertAlexWillis]

So what relations is Perival to Rand? A cousin?

 

I don't believe we ever find out who Perival's parents are, or their relation to Tigraine, however, Perival is most likely a first or second cousin to Rand.  Certainly a much closer blood relation than that between Rand and Elayne.

[Davian93]

Moreover, by rights Galad would seem to have the best claim to being the head of Mantear (not only is he older the Rand but is legitimate).

 

No, Galad is a Damodred, end of story.  He cannot be High Seat of Mantear because his Father did not marry into Mantear, Tigraine married into Damodred.  Hence his last name being Damodred.  He has a good claim for the High Seat of Damodred but not Mantear.  Obviously they would know Galad's parentage when they were deciding who was going to run Mantear and they expressly didn't pick Galad.

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, Galad is a Damodred, end of story.  He cannot be High Seat of Mantear because his Father did not marry into Mantear, Tigraine married into Damodred.  Hence his last name being Damodred.  He has a good claim for the High Seat of Damodred but not Mantear.  Obviously they would know Galad's parentage when they were deciding who was going to run Mantear and they expressly didn't pick Galad.

 

Well ... its a little more complicated than that.

 

First of all, we don't know who Perival's parents are, or their degree of relation to Tigraine, and to Ishara, and that information is potentially pivotal to this question.  But people with a lineage in more than one House can have multiple claims at multiple times (Elayne's claim to both the Lion and Sun Thrones is a prime example).  Tigraine most likely did not marry "into" House Damodred ... her marriage was more of an alliance, especially given her status as Daughter-Heir and Andoran laws of succession.

 

Of course, with her disappearance, Galad became, for all intents and purposes, fully a Damodred as you say.

 

As a practical matter, Galad may have had whatever claim he could have exercised to the High Seat of House Mantear renounced in his name when Tarigail married Morgase, so that Morgase would not have control of two High Houses in addition to the Lion Throne.  Being who he is, he would honor such a renunciation completely.  I can't recall if Morgase ever officially adopted him ... if she did, that would certainly void his claim in House Mantear.

 

In the end, neither Galad nor Rand has any interest in challenging Perival.  Galad lacks personal ambition for power, and Rand has much larger things on his plate.

[Orange Fescue]

 

 

Mantear is still in existance and is still a major house in Andor (one of the 19 needed to gain the throne)

 

Thank you, Davian. I hate it when noble houses disappear completely. Life just hasn't been the same without the Plantagenets to kick around.

[Davian93]

As a practical matter, Galad may have had whatever claim he could have exercised to the High Seat of House Mantear renounced in his name when Tarigail married Morgase, so that Morgase would not have control of two High Houses in addition to the Lion Throne.  Being who he is, he would honor such a renunciation completely.  I can't recall if Morgase ever officially adopted him ... if she did, that would certainly void his claim in House Mantear.

 

I think that Morgase may have indeed officially adopted him.  Galad always referred to Morgase as "mother" and he seems to be a very formal fellow.  I think that if she wasn't legally and fully his mother but rather just "the woman who married dad after mom disappeared" his relationship to her would be different.  Galad see's himself as a Damodred and as Morgase's son, thus his loyalty to Elayne and Morgase above all others.  Remember he was ready to ignore his duties to the Whitecloaks to escort Elayne back to Camelyn.

[elmis]

The discussion has gone somewhat from the original question, but just to lay that one dead I've copied a section from the wotmania FAQ. I think they nailed it. :)

 

The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...

 

    - The Shadow Rising, Seeds of Shadow

 

Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, a Talent many thought lost before her, and long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle.

 

    -A Crown of Swords, Prologue: Lightnings

 

This Foretelling is an interesting one, as it can be interpreted two ways. Elaida's interpretation is that a member of House Trakand - i.e. Elayne (and/or her children), Gawyn, or Morgase is the key to winning Tarmon Gai'don.That is why she attached herself to Morgase - she wanted to control the key. But, Elaida's interpretation is probably the wrong one. We know her Foretelling was made when she was an Accepted. We also know from New Spring: The Novel that she was an Accepted from 972-975 NE. So Elaida's Foretelling must have been made before 975 NE. The Royal House of Andor was House Mantear until 972 NE - Modrellein, Luc, and Tigraine. The Succession lasted from 972 to 974 NE. Elaida assumed that the Foretelling referred to the Trakands, because as far as she knew all the Mantears were dead and gone - Modrellein dead, Luc vanished in the Blight, Tigraine just…vanished. But we know that Tigraine survived to become Far Dareis Mai, and give birth to a son. Rand. Now, which person is the one who will fight the Last Battle? The Dragon Reborn. Rand. Son of the Daughter-Heir when Elaida made her Foretelling. (Of course, Galad is Tigraine's son and Morgase's adopted son, but he is a Damodred and it is extremely unlikely the Foretelling was referring to him rather than Rand.) This is typical Elaida, taking her own interpretation at face value and not looking at the facts, along with typical RJ irony. Rand is the key to the Last Battle.

 

In a more general sense, the Foretelling is accurate as it stands; the Royal line of Andor (both Trakands and Mantears, and even their important liege men, such as Gareth Bryne and Thom) are all playing an important part in defeating the Dark One. But Rand is definitely the key.

[iron man]

my theory is that elayne, aviendha and min all need to be at the last battle, and since elayne is a member of the royal house of andor, the royal house of andor is key to winning the last battle

[Majsju]

I strongly doubt Elayne will have much to do with TG, other than ordering her troops to go out there. She is pregnant, you know, which means she can hardly channel as it is, and that will only get worse. Great idea to bring someone who needs constant protection into battle. Surely the incident with Min in KOD was a once-in-a-lifetime...

[iron man]

she may have her kids by the time the last battle comes around, and she is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai in the tower, she can defend herself

[DemandredFO]

I don't think will have her kids by TG.  I mean it's already started and Elayne got pregnant in WH.  I think between then and the end of KOD is only a month or two, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.  Trollocs are probably already streaming towards a much weakened borderlands and others getting into place.  The board is set and the pieces are moving, I don't see it lasting six month's at the very least.

To confuse the issue some more; Elayne and Aviendha are sisters now, does that mean anything in royalty terms. 

[Orange Fescue]

Demandred, my impression was that Elayne was already "showing"--i.e. she was visibly pregnant--as of KoD. If she were only a month or two along, would it be obvious to onlookers that she was pregnant? Seriously, I don't know. I usually don't find out people are pregnant until after they look like they're smuggling beach balls.