Stray thought regarding Sammael

[Majsju]

ACOS, chapter 20.

 

Moridin is spying on Sammael and Graendal, and one of the things he hears is Sammael strongly implying that he has gotten a promise of becoming Nae'blis. And his thoughts about that...

 

Unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But todays truth need not be tomorrows. The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once had he changed it himself.

 

As we all know, later in the book Moridin helps Rand kill Sammael. The reason he gives Rand is that many plans has to be relaid if Rand dies at that point.

But what if Moridins real reason is to change truth, to kill a possible threat to his own position as Nae'blis? To show the DO that he does have the strength required to stand near the DOs glory, despite being thrice defeated and once killed by Rand already?

 

That could be an explanation why Moridin, despite being Nae'blis, has not been informed about Sammael being recycled (if it actually is Sammael), as seen in KOD.

 

Just a thought.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While I certainly can see that as one of Moridin's potential motives for helping Rand in Shadar Logoth, I'm not so sure about the resurrected Sammael cover-up part at the end.  Jordan stated pretty definitively that he's gone (I know I don't have to supply you with the quote, Maj).  And there are other, more plausible answers to how the Trollocs got sent through the Ways (*cough* Mazrim Taim *cough*).

[Majsju]

Well, RJ only said that Sammael died. As we all know, forsaken have an annoying habit of not staying dead.

 

While Taim is obviously a good possibility, I don't think we should completely rule out Sammael just yet.

[ignavus1223]

RJ was very clear that Samuel was not coming back.  Besides, I'm not sure the DO could bring Samuel back.  He wasn't just killed, his soul was consumed.  I'm not sure the DO had access to Samuel's soul in order to bring him back.

[Ahaz Flagg]

I had alway's thought Moridin's part in helping Rand was for two reasons, one you stated and the other is The Great Lord of the Drak has ordered that he is to stay alive.

 

As for Sammel, while I agree that they have a bad habit of not staying dead, RJ stated he was dead, and never coming back. And while I would love to see him come back and cry, I will have to say his soul is where it belongs,Lost!!

[Sauron]

but doesn sammel staying dead break the offical forsaken code of always come back to annoy the hero than get yourself killied again

[Ahaz Flagg]

but doesn sammel staying dead break the offical forsaken code of always come back to annoy the hero than get yourself killied again

 

HAHA, you know better than that. 

 

[Majsju]

RJ has Never stated that Sammael is not coming back.

 

What he stated was that Sammael died in SL, and that it was Mashadar that killed him. That's all.

 

While there is a good possibility that it was impossible for the DO to retrieve Sammaels soul from mashadar, it is only speculation from our side.

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

RJ has Never stated that Sammael is not coming back.

 

What he stated was that Sammael died in SL, and that it was Mashadar that killed him. That's all.

 

While there is a good possibility that it was impossible for the DO to retrieve Sammaels soul from mashadar, it is only speculation from our side.

 

 

I will search for the quote, i m 99% sure it was question asked about sammel.

 

 

Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

 

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

 

Ok, not never coming back, but pretty obvious on his wording that Sammel will not be back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kadere]

Actually RJ has stated that beyond a shadow of a doubt Sammael will not be coming back in this age.

 

Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? [pronounce something like Sammy-el] Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.

 

 

And there you go.

[Majsju]

Actually RJ has stated that beyond a shadow of a doubt Sammael will not be coming back in this age.

 

Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? [pronounce something like Sammy-el] Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.

 

 

And there you go.

 

Link please.

[Kadere]

It's a gathering of tons of Q and A's from Robert Jordan. Exactly where the question was asked isn't given, but here's the link:

 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator.htm

 

it's under The Forsaken section

[Majsju]

Well, how about that, a Q&A I haven't seen, been a while.

 

It does of course not change my belief that Moridin killed Sammael more for personal gain than for all these plans he referred to.

 

Which, combined with that Moridin is being held in the dark about who ordered the trolloc attack against Rand (and that he is not even informed by the DO that Sammael is off the board) does raise a few questions about how strong Moridins position actually is.

[Luckers]

Yeah, awesome. I've pretty much thought that was solid but its nice to have proof.

[CrazyMike]

I am very sure that if Mashadar gets you you are LOST to the DO and you either become a part of the Evil that is Mashadar or consumed by it.  The Smallest touch is enough to guarantee your demis

[Davian93]

RAW, only forsaken could order the Myrdraal/Trollocs through the ways to attack Rand.  This would mean that Taim would have to be a Forsaken to order it.  Personally it would be more plausible if it had been Demandred (despite his quasi denial at the Forsaken social in KoD than Taim, of whome we do not have a real indication of him being Forsaken despite his DF status.

[Kadere]

Yeah, when I found it I was a little dissapointed because I've always wanted Sammael to return. But now that he's gone, it does mean that Moridin is in the dark and opens the possibilites of who it is.

 

I would think now that it would have been Padan Fain. If there's one guy who could somehow out smart the Forsaken (well, technically lots of people have outsmarted them but not quite like this usually) it would be Fain.

 

He's been laying low for 2 books now, he's shown in the past that he can direct trollocs and mydraal, he obviously wants Rand dead, and he doesn't give a crap about the Forsaken's plans.

 

... Though it is interesting that Moridin's face pops up in Rand's head just before the attack. Is it possible Moridin's lying to the other Forsaken and HE really sent the trollocs and is using Sammael as a red harring to the other Forsaken? I mean, he is pretty crazy, and it seems unlikely he of all people wouldn't know Sammael died. I don't know. Just an idea.

[Davian93]

Is it possible Moridin's lying to the other Forsaken and HE really sent the trollocs and is using Sammael as a red harring to the other Forsaken? I mean, he is pretty crazy, and it seems unlikely he of all people wouldn't know Sammael died. I don't know. Just an idea.

 

It's very possible...and it would be like Ishy to mess with the other Forsaken just to keep them off balance.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW, only forsaken could order the Myrdraal/Trollocs through the ways to attack Rand.  This would mean that Taim would have to be a Forsaken to order it.

 

I know.  I think that Taim has been Chosen, and this is the first hint we're getting of it.  The attack on Algarin's manor matches his lack of subtlety, and he's been tracking Rand for all he's worth.

 

I'm not saying its proof by any means.  But I think thats whats going on.

[cloglord]

Is it possible Moridin's lying to the other Forsaken and HE really sent the trollocs and is using Sammael as a red harring to the other Forsaken? I mean, he is pretty crazy, and it seems unlikely he of all people wouldn't know Sammael died. I don't know. Just an idea.

 

I had the very same thought.  It doesn't seem likely to me that Moridin would show up and watch the fight until right before the end, and then just skip out on the last bits.  At this point in the stories he if often been refered to by the fans as the "watcher."  I mean that's what defines him at this point in the story directly after his reincarnation.  He watches stuff, he very likely witnessed Sammael's demise.  At the very least he would have felt Sammy using the power to escape, since we know that Mashadar absolutely and definatively killed Sammy, and we also know that Moridin was present at his death, it seems improbable that Moridin didn't know with a fairly high degree of certainty that Sammy is dead.  If you take this one step further, we can possibly gain futher support for the "Moridin, lying liar who lies," theory.  We the reader know from RJ that Sammy is absolutely not coming back.  We also know that the DO has reincarnated every forsaken who has died, except for the two who betrayed him.  Asmo and Sammy.  Asmo by teaching Rand, and Sammy by defying the "no kill" order, and attempting to kill Rand in SL.  Now how did the DO know not to reincarnate Sammy?  It would seem that Moridin ratted out Sammy to the DO.  If Moridin and the DO had such a conversation, it would be hard for Moridin not to know about Sammy's fate.

[Tyrell]

I know this is absolutely off topic, but now it's been mentioned (reincarnating and stuff) I'm wondering why Be'lal hasn't been brought back.

 

I know he was Balefired. But wasn't it said by RJ that Balefire stopping the Dark One from reincarnating people is to do with the window of time he has to grab the soul, we don't know how long this is, but Moriane's Balefire isn't that strong.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

*Following through with a slight oddball suggestion - Maybe Taim is Be'lal *ducks and covers*

[Luckers]

The issue is that whilst Moiraine isn't Forsaken level strong, she's hardly negligable. She does not fit with RJ's comment of very weak balefire, and therefore Be'lal is gone.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I know this is absolutely off topic, but now it's been mentioned (reincarnating and stuff) I'm wondering why Be'lal hasn't been brought back.

 

I know he was Balefired. But wasn't it said by RJ that Balefire stopping the Dark One from reincarnating people is to do with the window of time he has to grab the soul, we don't know how long this is, but Moriane's Balefire isn't that strong.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

*Following through with a slight oddball suggestion - Maybe Taim is Be'lal *ducks and covers*

 

"Following through with a slight oddball suggestion - Maybe Taim is Be'lal *ducks and covers"

Sneeky, but I couldn't let you get away with it, not without somebody noticing. ;D Where did that idea come from? Oddball suggestion indeed!

[Davian93]

I know.  I think that Taim has been Chosen, and this is the first hint we're getting of it.  The attack on Algarin's manor matches his lack of subtlety, and he's been tracking Rand for all he's worth.

 

I lean that way myself concerning Taim.  It would make sense considering his position as essentially the head of a goodly number of dreadlords and all.  Most likely it would have to be after Dashiva left the BT that he became a Chosen.  Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have a Forsaken keeping eye on another forsaken.  Its also possible that he occupys a position similar to Alviarin in that he is marked by the DO but is not at the same level as the Forsaken.  This is supported by the fact the the DO has a prejudice against 3rd Age Channelers.

[Tyrell]

Well... and bear in mind that I came up with this whole thing basically in a few moments of craziness -

 

First - Moriane herself says that she couldn't remove more than a few seconds from the pattern, on a scale of "Negligabl"e to "Thread burned so far back that the Dark One doesn't get a chance to do alittle soul-grabbing" I'd say thats towards Negligable.

 

Now, I raked my memory for anything that could actually substantiate my oddball suggestion so here we go:

 

-Taim uses Bel'al's fist gripping lightning bolts sigil.

-There was a big "Taim AWOL" period in which anything couldda happened to him including the DO sticking Be'lal's soul into him

-The "Lord of Chaos" line is a Chosen only line, and he uses it

-Be'lal's part in the series is way too tiny for one of the Chosen

-Taim displays AoL knowledge he shouldn't possess

 

 

Basically I got nothing ;) but nevermind, it was worth a shot.