Door frame in Tear, answer to all knowledge problems?

[Theandrin]

So when you enter that door frame you get an answer to three questions, we all know that. Now, we have heard time and again that the Aes Sedai have lost the knowledge of weaves and how to make all the different types of angerals. So the question that comes up is, can the Aes Sedai enter the door and ask how to make them?

 

I personally don't see any problem with this, but even so, why didn't the Aes Sedai in the past do this. You can say that they didn't know what was inside the door, but how did Moiraine know? We all know that she is very intelligent, but I would imagine that after the door frame was studied by Aes Sedai in the past, that someone else knew about it as well.

 

I can also see people saying that Aes Sedai were not really "allowed" in Tear, but then the door frame was not always in Tear. It was a gift to Tear from Mayene, and thats where it was studied by Aes Sedai.

 

So I guess in the end the simple question is, why didn't the Aes Sedai go into the door and find out how to create the lost abilities? Was it simple fear of what would happen?

[Papermache]

Realize that you can receive almost ANY answer that you wish. There are much more important things to the survival of the world than rediscovering lost talents. It is also possible that the Aelfinn, who do not know how to channel, could not describe how to make these weaves.

[Tyrell]

"it could be the truth," Edesina piped up as if she were being helpful "The Aelfinn can be reached through a ter'angreal in the Stone of Tear, so I understand, and supposedly they give true answers."

 

It was known about, in a general sort of way, but its function was, atleast in this case, apparrently not believed.

 

Besides, Aes Sedai, and indeed channelers generally are very reluctant to mess around with unknown Ter'angreal.

[DemandredFO]

At least until severing was healed

[Nelal Hurcran]

Oh, sure, severings has been healed, but that dosn't mean the "burning-out" can be undone.

 

Just ingore me if any of these facts are wrong: I havent done a compleate reread recently.

The people who are severed are still somewhat connected to the TS; healing them is just repairing an existing bond. Unless I'm very much mistaken (likly), they can even sort-of sense the TS waiting. We know that they can feel damane, or anyone else on the wrong side of the adam. There connection was just cut.

But none of that holds true for someone who has been burnt-out. We know that they can't link using the adam, not even the partial link that severeds attain. They can't even sort of sense the TS. More like their connection hasbeen bailfired then cut.

 

 

So now that I have gone compleatly off topic, the rest of you please stay on.

 

[CUBAREY]

Remember, answers are cryptic at best so A.S. would not only have to know what talent well enough to describe it she would then have to decifur the answer. Since, this might require hit or miss attempts to make the weave many A.S. would be disinclined. Also many talents were lost because A.S. where not powerful enough to do weave.  Thus, unless you are proposing some type of kind of organized systematic effort by the White Tower it would be a very iffy use of your three questions. Lastly, nothing that i have read says that at least a few A.S. did not in fact ask questions about talents.  But when you consider obsticles to success and their penchent for secrecy and keeping their private tricks to themselves I am not surprised that Fact that this was or was not attempted was not dealt with in the narrative.

.

[Luckers]

Oh, sure, severings has been healed, but that dosn't mean the "burning-out" can be undone.

 

Just ingore me if any of these facts are wrong: I havent done a compleate reread recently.

The people who are severed are still somewhat connected to the TS; healing them is just repairing an existing bond. Unless I'm very much mistaken (likly), they can even sort-of sense the TS waiting. We know that they can feel damane, or anyone else on the wrong side of the adam. There connection was just cut.

But none of that holds true for someone who has been burnt-out. We know that they can't link using the adam, not even the partial link that severeds attain. They can't even sort of sense the TS. More like their connection hasbeen bailfired then cut.

 

 

So now that I have gone compleatly off topic, the rest of you please stay on.

 

 

You're quite correct about the difference between the ability of a stilled person to still sense the source and a burned out person not to. (recall, though, that 'severed' was an Age of Legend term that applied to both states).

 

Now that being said, things are made problematic but Sashelle and her friends, who by definition were not stilled by Rand, but rather crushed. The description much more closely fits with being burned out than with being intentionally stilled. The knife like description of Nynaeve's encounter with Mogehedian compared to the 'crushed in fists of spirit' of Sashelle make theat clear.

 

Furthermore, concidering the high likelyhood that Moiraine was burned out... yes, i suspect being burned out can indeed be healed.

[Tyrell]

Although the difference between how Rand severed three of his captors and the knife description in the Nynaeve-Mogehedian could just be another Male-Female difference like how Male-Female traveling is so different in description but the same in effect.

[Briwan Dragain]

That's an interesting question, actually... But, knowing how Aes Sedai are.. it's very unlikely that every one that wanted to get into the doorframe got to. Only certain ones were studying, and even then we know how they are with sharing information. Also, as Cubarey said the answers are pretty cryptic and it really hasn't said anything against Aes Sedai learning some new tricks from them... as I really believe they have. Just, there are so many Aes Sedai and the weaves they have learned may not be helpful save to a few, so who knows.

 

I don't think burning out can be Healed though. It's a different animal, and much more natural I think. I mean, since it's pretty much your mind doing it for you. I think their connection is erased.. or so lost in their mind that they'd have to completely rediscover it to use it.. and even then who knows?

 

And 'm fairly certain that the difference between Rand's severing and Nyneave's stuff is just the male and female difference, as Tyrell said. After all, saidin is the siezey force power and saidar is the cuddly snuggly embrace version.

[CrazyMike]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Aelfin and the Eilfin (spelling?) both take something in payment for their services; I believe they either take a piece of the persons Soul or of their ability to chanell or maybe both,,, not to many Aes Sedai would be willing to part with either.

[aevogt]

Take a piece of paper and cut it in half with a pair of scissors - That's being stilled.  Take another sheet and light it on fire - That's being burnt out.  The difference between being stilled and burning out is what's left to heal.  There is nothing left when you burn out but there is if you're stilled.  Or have your link crushed with spirit. 

[Nelal Hurcran]

Furthermore, concidering the high likelyhood that Moiraine was burned out... yes, i suspect being burned out can indeed be healed.

 

I had compleatly forgotten about the Lanfear/Cyndane scenario. Unless the Finns had some way to still Lanfear before she died (which theory has been pretty much destroyed by RJ), then burning-out has to be able to be healed. Unless, of course, there is some other factor to her power-loss that we haven't caught, or seen, as of yet.

 

Now that being said, things are made problematic but Sashelle and her friends, who by definition were not stilled by Rand, but rather crushed. The description much more closely fits with being burned out than with being intentionally stilled. The knife like description of Nynaeve's encounter with Mogehedian compared to the 'crushed in fists of spirit' of Sashelle make theat clear.

 

Using aevogt's paper analogy (and dissagreing with him at the same time), what Rand did was more like tearing the paper into several parts. Much more messy than cutting (stilling), but you still have all the peices, so you can "heal" them back together.

[lou]

it would be a better option (if it were available) to use the second doorframe in rhudean to have the knowledge of the making just put right into your head.

[Theandrin]

There are two reasons I didn't bring that door up, first, the door melted and it seems the only way to get into that land now would be to go through the tower of ghenjei. The second is because of Mat's experience it seems quite dangerous to get things from them.

[lou]

yes, i do agree with that. very dangerous. of course the answer the finns might give at the door in tear may very well be "go to the second door" tricksy little finnses.

[Tyrell]

I really wouldn't want to pay the price that the Eelfinn demand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ah ... there's no guarantee that the Aelfinn would be able to provide answers to technical channeling questions, and questions that they consider "frivolous" are punished.  Its not like the Aelfinn can channel.  They're just good at predicting the future ... which is useful, but not encyclopedic.

 

Then there's the fact that each person only gets three questions per lifetime, according to the treaty.

 

As to why Aes Sedai hadn't been using the doorway in Tear ... the doorway was locked in the basement of the Stone, and the High Lords didn't let Aes Sedai anywhere near it.  Moiraine knew what it was because, in the past, Firsts of Mayene had let Aes Sedai study it, and there were records of those studies, but no Aes Sedai had access to it for hundreds of years before Rand entered the Stone.

[Briwan Dragain]

That's true, RAW, I didn't think about that. Chances are they probably couldn't give any channeling answers and they'd probably punish for the question. They're mean little critters.

 

But, also, there is that little treaty.. and the hundreds of years thing. But, I still like what I said earlier, too. As to paying the price, considering that Mat is mostly okay now but has those fun bonuses... I might be in. I'd still rather channel, though. Haha.

[elmis]

Don't you only get true answers from them if they're about you? How to weave a weave wouldn't fall under that category.

 

Also, I read somewhere, not sure if it's a theory or a RJ QotW answer, but the reality of the 'finns is very different from that of the normal world, and as such channeling could be/is different there too.

[dmanmiller34]

The most important thing to remeber about the Tear door is that they only anwsered questions not gave knowledge. For example if you would have asked "how can i make a Terangreal?" they would likely say "With the one power."

 

The other door in Rhudion could give them the knowledge but then they would have to pay the price. I bet with that question it would most likley be they're Ability to cahnnel so that the Knowlege would be useless. They are sneaky like that.

[lou]

i am very disappointed that noone got my little joke.

[Luckers]

Although the difference between how Rand severed three of his captors and the knife description in the Nynaeve-Mogehedian could just be another Male-Female difference like how Male-Female traveling is so different in description but the same in effect.

 

Mmm. Maybe, but i don't think so. For starters men and women shield people with the same 'slicing' weave, and Nynaeve directly names the act of intentionally severing a person with a sharpening of that weave--so if men and women both use the same methodology in shielding, why the divergence in severing?

 

And then, lets recall, there is the AOL name, severing. Lanfear even uses it specifically for something done by Asmodean. He severed his mother. Severing does not sound to me like the 'crushing' that Rand employed.

 

Finally, despite the use of the term 'stilled' with Sashelle and the others, i don't actually think that is what occured. Rand crushed their weave, it was never his intention to still them, merely break what they were weaving. The result was that they lost their ability, but from what occured it seemed to me more to result from the stress Rand placed on their ability.

 

To me, all of it sounds much closer to being burned out than being stilled. The fact that it resulted from another channelers direct action against them clouds the issue, but the fact that that act was not directly intended to sever their connection to the power, and what we witness in the blunt nature of that act suggests they were burned out because their abilities were pushed beyond what they could handle.

 

Take a piece of paper and cut it in half with a pair of scissors - That's being stilled.  Take another sheet and light it on fire - That's being burnt out.  The difference between being stilled and burning out is what's left to heal.  There is nothing left when you burn out but there is if you're stilled.  Or have your link crushed with spirit.

 

Well, actually the difference between being stilled and being burnt out is not whats left to heal. Thats the nature of this debate, we have no comparative judgement about what burning out leaves to heal. The difference between being burnt out and being stilled is that burn outs can no longer sense the power, and in that stilling involves intentional action.

 

Certainly, burning out is more complete than stilling, but that does not mean absolutely complete. To state such is, at this stage, unfounded--especially given the relative evidence suggesting the opposite. Cyndane--and yes, Sashelle and the others.

 

 

Using aevogt's paper analogy (and dissagreing with him at the same time), what Rand did was more like tearing the paper into several parts. Much more messy than cutting (stilling), but you still have all the peices, so you can "heal" them back together.

 

Well, actually Rand did nothing of the sort. He crushed their weaves in order to break the shield. Their being severed as a result was an entirely unintended side-effect. Now it still might be that your point about Sashelle and the others standing at some form of middle point between the surgical cleaness of stealing and the resultive devestation of being burned out--or they might not. I personally think not, the description makes me believe they were burned out because their ability was over-stressed when Rand crushed their weaves, but the fact is we don't know.

 

 

 

[Tyrell]

I still think that this is just the male severing, or comparable to it, rather than burning out - here's a few quotes that I can place together to further my point ;)  "[Rand] Felt the other man's disapointment [as he shielded the sister]" ........"if he decided to still her he wanted her to know who was dooing it, and why" Also, now I come to read it again, alittle earlier, just after he gets out of the chest "He didn't recognise any of them. An instant to regret that it was not Galina or Erian that he had stilled-he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin has gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them"

 

These seem to indicate (atleast when I place them together to further my own ends) that both Rand and LTT knew that Randd had severed the three, and LTT wanted Rand to do the same again with the Aes Sedai defenders that he chose to shield.

 

Sorry if this is alittle incoheriernt, i just got up, feeling a tad groggy.

[Nelal Hurcran]

And then, lets recall, there is the AOL name, severing. Lanfear even uses it specifically for something done by Asmodean. He severed his mother. Severing does not sound to me like the 'crushing' that Rand employed.

 

Let me point out what you yourself wrote:

You're quite correct about the difference between the ability of a stilled person to still sense the source and a burned out person not to. (recall, though, that 'severed' was an Age of Legend term that applied to both states).

emphasis added

 

So couldn't what Rand did constitute as severing? Especialy as you go on to say:

Finally, despite the use of the term 'stilled' with Sashelle and the others, i don't actually think that is what occured. Rand crushed their weave, it was never his intention to still them, merely break what they were weaving. The result was that they lost their ability, but from what occured it seemed to me more to result from the stress Rand placed on their ability.

 

To me, all of it sounds much closer to being burned out than being stilled.

 

Sorta contradicting yourself, huh?

 

True, they could have just overexerted themselves trying to counter Rand, but RJ wrote it thus:

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them in fists of Spirit.

 

It reads more like a ruthless attack on something Spiritual, like their link to saidar, than something physical, which is the only thing they could guard against using the Power, assuming that they were bound by the Three Oaths. If he wasn't threatening their lives, they couldn't use the Power as a weapon, even a defensive one. Of course, losing their link may well be to them like losing their life, but that is a personal conviction, and very open to debate.

 

Basically, they couldn't overexert themselves fighting Rand, because there was nothing they could fight.

 

 

i am very disappointed that noone got my little joke.

 

We did. We just didn't post our laughter.  :D ~~HAWHAWHAW~~  :D

[Egerog]

The Door Frame Terangial in Rheudion is interesting and very different. 

We do not know much of how much does the white tower know of it

The one in Tear answered some 3 questions (i don't think there was any price involved)

The one in Rheudion granted 3 requests.  When Matt asked questions they were silent but when he unwittingly made request (Fix the holes in his memory, Stop Aie sedi from bothering him, and someone to take him back out the door.)Then he was told he was a fool since he did not bargin a price and that they will just name a price.  Then they took him out hung him from the tree, He got his memories fixed in the, fox head medallion.  (I am not sure why the gave him the spear perhaps as receipt of being paid in full for the agreement.) 

Now the price they named was high but perhaps a person who was more knowlageble of the contract could haggle them down to just a simple rap on the knuckles with a stick.