The fate of Shein Chunla?

[The Dragon Reborn]

Ok, here is something I can across in PoD. In the Tower Secret Records, an Amyrlin named Shein Chunla was eventually exiled from the Tower because she had 'squandered the power of the Amyrlin Seat' and 'alienated most of the Sisters in the Tower.'

Everybody believed she died in office, when really she had been sent into exile.

 

Then next line is what interests me:

"Even the secret histories treaded lightly in certain areas, yet it was fairly obvious that, after the fourth plot to restore her to the Amyrlin Seat was uncovered, the Sisters guarding Shein had smothered her in her sleep with a pillow."

 

I'm just wondering if this is a mistake by RJ or if there is some way that this could have been done. I'll start with a preemptive strike and say that this is all we have to go on. From that quote it cannot be assumed that guards were told to do it, the text it quite clear. I reckon it's either a mistake, or I've missed something...or there's a loop hole the Sisters exposed.

 

Opinions?

[balefireruinssteaks]

It seems that it was well understood by either the Hall of the Tower or the existing Amyrlin (or at the very least the Ajah heads) that Shein Chula could not be restored to power.

 

The order probably came from one of those sources.  We don't know if the Sisters guarding her were all of the same Ajah, but the Oath not to use the Power to kill someone would not apply here since the former Amyrlin was smothered in her sleep, most likely by a pillow or something.

 

I'm not sure but I dont think the Black Ajah took credit for that.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Damn, trust me to overlook the simple fact that they are only not allowed to use the Power to kill. There's no rule about your bare hands... :-[

[Blackrose]

or a knife/sword

[Seriodor]

or the fact that since the tower is in possession of the oath rod, they could shrug the oaths on and off at any time.

[Blackrose]

How far have you read.?

 

Ridding yourself of the Oaths hurts and im sure no Aes Sedai even any Black sister would want to do that over and over again

[The Dragon Reborn]

Whoa, whatever about finding 'creative' ways around the Oaths, I don't think they would resort to that...well least ways not at the time (Egwene considered for a time). Aes Sedai seem to hold the Oath Rod with far too much reverence for them to even consider that.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The Oath is averted when the Aes Sedai feels that her life is in immediate danger.  It's unlikely that knowledge of a plot to restore Shein to the Amyrlin Seat would cause that kind of reaction, even if you could convince yourself to interpret her restoration to power as dangerous.

 

Also, the knowledge of the Oath Rod's ability to release you from an oath was a closely held secret by the Black Ajah, and only talked about openly in recent times.  As far as we know, they Aes Sedai guarding Shein or even talking about what to do about her would have no existing knowledge that the oaths COULD be taken off and then taken again.

 

It's more likely they just realized she was a liability and smothered her with a pillow, or knifed her.

[dmanmiller34]

A warder could have easily done it as well. But we have to assume that she was either severed(which i doubt because they tried to reinstate her and stilling was not healable at that time or that she was sheilded. So that would mean direct involvment of an Aes Sedai, not just an order to someone to carry it out.

[Barmacral]

And perhaps its possible that Chunla came in the days before the 3 oaths?

[dlan4327]

Definitely not. All Aes Sedai post-breaking swear on the oath rod, basically the last unbound Aes Sedai were the ones left from the Age of Legends.

[The Dragon Reborn]

A warder could have easily done it as well. But we have to assume that she was either severed(which i doubt because they tried to reinstate her and stilling was not healable at that time or that she was sheilded. So that would mean direct involvment of an Aes Sedai, not just an order to someone to carry it out.

 

Not really, all we have to go on is the sentence above, the wording of which makes it clear that is was either a Sister who did it or a mistake by RJ. I've since realized that there is a very handy way around the 3 Oaths: kill, just not with the Power.

[zshadez]

They can't kill with it, but there's nothing saying they can't shield her, tie her up in flows of air, then set a pillow on her face. The channeling wouldn't be killing her, only binding her while the pillow did the work.

[Nelal Hurcran]

That depends entierly on tbe AS doing the weaving. I don't think that any would be able to do it. When Moraine simply holds a would-be assasign, who is then shot, she thinks that it is very close to using the power as a wepon. Unless the AS were black, I don't think that they could think of holding a person while they were suffocating on a pillow as anything other that using the Power as a wepon.

 

[zshadez]

So tie off her shield, release the power, then gang up and smother her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As Nelal pointed out, quite rightly, the ability to use the Power in the way you describe, zshadez, would depend entirely on how the Aes Sedai in question thought of such a use.  Is a tool used to render someone helpless a weapon?  Some would say yes, and others, no.  Those Aes Sedai who believe it is would not be able to use the Power in that way, assuming that they were not Black Ajah.  Those who do not, would be able to do precisely what you describe.

 

But channeling at all is totally unnecessary.  They controlled the food and water she got.  Dose her with something that knocks her out (rather than poison, which might possibly be detected), then smother her.  That is simply one of a variety of methods with no channeling needed.

 

This comes down to the conclusion already reached by most of the people here: the Oaths don't stop regular old murder, and there are plenty of ways to kill someone without the Power.

[Achmed]

We know the oaths don't stop murder...

 

Check Moraine out in the prologue.  Moraine in the kitchen with the knife anyone?

[Nelal Hurcran]

We know the oaths don't stop murder...

 

Which is what RAW and others have said.

 

Moraine in the kitchen with the knife anyone?

 

Nope. Greandel (sp?) in the pantry with bailfire  :P

[Davian93]

The easiest solution and the most simple is that they simply didn't use the Power to accomplish her death.  Smothered in her sleep is smothered in her sleep.  The question would be how the Sisters viewed it if say they held her down and shielded her with the Power and then put the pillow over her face.  At that point, they would be using the Power as an accessory to murder while not actually committing the crime itself.  It all depends on the mindset of the AS doing the act.  For those simply physically holding her down and holding a pillow over her face, that would not be an issue whatsoever as the Oaths (as stated above) do not prohibit killing with their bare hands.

[Child of Lir]

As she was asleep she neither needed to be stilled / shielded or held down with the Power. Just creep into her room, put a pillow over her face and press down hard. Even if she started to wake, which isn't a certainty, she'd already be half starved of oxygen and so would likely lack the necessary strength to either fight back or channel. No use of the Power is required, and no side-stepping of the Three Oaths - they don't even come into it. It's just a plain, old-fashioned murder.

[Lune]

I remember reading somewhere about a murder where this fellow was killed in his bed. His wife soaked a thick cloth in water and covered his face with it. He simply suffocated in his sleep without ever waking.

 

It's actually, surprisingly easy to kill a person. What's difficult is not getting caught. 

[Davian93]

As she was asleep she neither needed to be stilled / shielded or held down with the Power.

 

Knowing AS, she was probably shielded 24 hours a day as she was a prisoner and that is their laws and tradition.  Not that it would matter since the AS doing the shielding were most likely not the ones actually killing her.  As we've seen with Leane and other AS who are prisoners, they are always shielded unless they are stilled...which she was not.

[Child of Lir]

As she was asleep she neither needed to be stilled / shielded or held down with the Power.

 

Knowing AS, she was probably shielded 24 hours a day as she was a prisoner and that is their laws and tradition.  Not that it would matter since the AS doing the shielding were most likely not the ones actually killing her.  As we've seen with Leane and other AS who are prisoners, they are always shielded unless they are stilled...which she was not.

 

Probably true, but my point was she was asleep, so was unable to defend herself either physically or with the Power, and that's why use of the Power doesn't even need to enter into it.  :)