Accuracy of Min's viewings

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Sorry if this has been addressed beofore, but how accurate are Min's viewings. She says that when she is sure, what she saw will definitely happen. But can someone die before their part in a viewing happens? For example, if Alivia jumps off a cliff, she would be dead before she helps Rand die. I always thought that made sense, but I was confused when Elayne was sure she was invincible until her babies were born, just because Min said they would be healthy. Am I wrong, or is Elayne?

[Achmed]

She's never been wrong.

 

...

 

Which is why she's puzzled about Moraine, since her viewings say that she will be needed for Rand but she is dead  ???

[Vassili]

She is always right when she understands what she sees. However, maybe a better question is, do her viewings absolutely have to come true? I think Moiraine said something along the lines of, "even prophecy can fail when the one involved dies." If this is true, then Elayne is an idiot, but i think we know that already.

[Mat is Better]

People, people.  We can come to a fair and logical compromise.  Min's viewings always come true AND Elayne is an idiot  ;)

[Luckers]

It would seem that Min's viewings always come true, though she has had two viewings of 'if's', the only one of significance being that if Siuan goes too far away from Gareth Bryne, she will die.

[bcxanth]

People, people.  We can come to a fair and logical compromise.  Min's viewings always come true AND Elayne is an idiot  ;)

 

That's probably one of the smartest things ever said on this board. :)

[The Dragon Reborn]

But can someone die before their part in a viewing happens? For example, if Alivia jumps off a cliff, she would be dead before she helps Rand die.

 

I reckon what would probably happen in this case is that somehow Alivia jumping off the cliff would indirectly 'help' Rand die (hypothetically).

I've never questioned Min's ability, I can't remember any reason in the books that would give cause to. Even some the viewings that she herself doesn't understand have come true. She just doesn't have to info that we have, but we should be able to puzzle the majority of Min's viewings even if she can't (assuming they've happened.)

[MsDanya]

well, Min's viewing of Moiraine can still happen since Moiraine is not dead.

 

and I think Elayne is being an idiot as well. but only on that particular thing.. she rocks in everything else... *runs*

[Mr Hindley]

At the risk of getting overly philosophical... The guy who gets anointed King of Tear in KOD (Darlin?) - Min had an earlier vision in which she saw him wearing a crown that she didn't recognise. Once he finds out he's going to be king, and is going to need a crown, Min says 'I can tell you what it will look like, if you like.' I don't know if Min did go through with that offer, but if so, then her vision (the design of the crown) actually becomes reality because Min had the vision and told someone about it. Without the vision, and Min describing it, Darlin's crown would be some design of his own.

 

So can Min's visions shape events rather than just predicting them? If Min has a vision in the woods, but no-one is around to be told about it... Oh, I don't know, I'm confusing myself now.

[Luckers]

Yes, they can. Its the nature of the self-fulfilling prophecy. The cycle of the past seeing the future, and then causing the future... its inherent to the idea of prophecy.

 

[trakand_01]

I think we're being a little harsh to Elayne here... but you're right, she is.

 

One of the viewings that Min has that she's certain of but is open to 'speculation' shall we say is that when Perrin and Faile come to Rand, after Perrin feels Rand's 'need' for him, Min sees that terrible harm will come to Rand if Perrin isnt there. HOWEVER, she cannot say for certain that they WONT happen if Perrin is there, simply that they definitely will if he isnt.

 

It must be a horrible thing to live with, if you were Min (especially when you've put your heart in the pocket of Rand al'Thor - as I would).

[Luckers]

I never had a real issue with Elayne until this moment. Her cavalier attitude about her own safety as so far gotten Vadene and Sareitha killed. What next?

[Majsju]

I never had a real issue with Elayne until this moment. Her cavalier attitude about her own safety as so far gotten Vadene and Sareitha killed. What next?

 

There will most likely not be any "next", she got the wakeup call she needed to remind her that while she'll be safe, the same thing is not guaranteed for those around her.

 

Although, I can't see that anyone else would have acted in a different way. They had good information that told them there were only one BA in the house, information that was true, had they been there 10 minutes earlier none of the following events would have happened. And they would only have captured one BA, instead of the whole gang.

Who else should she have sent inside, soldiers to be slaughered like lambs when facing channelers not constricted by any oaths? The seafolk who only agreed to help saving Elayne when they realized all bargains would be nullified without her? The Kin, who are supposed to be spared from using channeling in combat until there is no other choice?

 

Face it, Aes Sedai are soldiers in a war against the shadow. Soldiers die. Elayne has to consider the big picture rather than cry like a little baby for every individual piece that is removed from the board.

[drovja]

Face it, Aes Sedai are soldiers in a war against the shadow. Soldiers die.

 

I'm not gonna argue that point, just wanted to raise the idea that perhaps the Aes Sedai themselves don't see themselves that way. At least, the majority of AS don't see themselves as "merely" soldiers.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Face it, Aes Sedai are soldiers in a war against the shadow. Soldiers die.

 

I'm not gonna argue that point, just wanted to raise the idea that perhaps the Aes Sedai themselves don't see themselves that way. At least, the majority of AS don't see themselves as "merely" soldiers.

 

oops, time to burst their bubble  ;D

[Setalle]

 

Soldiers die? Sounds like that's something Rand needs to learn.

 

I don't think Min has to tell anyone about her visions to have them come true. Did she tell anyone about her viewing of Thom? Someone juggling fire and the White Tower? That sounds an awful lot like his trip to the Tower on Ghenjei.

[cloglord]

Did she tell anyone about her viewing of Thom? Someone juggling fire and the White Tower? That sounds an awful lot like his trip to the Tower on Ghenjei.

 

I absolutely disagree that this viewing has anyhitng to do with the Tower of Ghenji, but it does bring an odd question to my mind.

 

I took this to mean that Min was reading  something in Thom's aura about his past.  Considering the viewing of Lan in TEotW about the 7 towers and the baby in the cradle with the sword, are ALL of Min's viewings about the future, or did RJ give her a few in TEotW that were instead related to the past of those characters, and then later decided that Min's viewing were all future related.

 

If they are all future related, does this mean that Malkier will rise again, towers and all?  Will Thom end up going to the White Tower in AMoL?

[Setalle]

cloglord, how could you 'absolutely disagree'? One of the ways to beat the 'finns is with fire, Mat is a juggler, and they are saving Moiraine, who happens to have something to do with the WT. This is just my opinion, though.

I think Min's viewings are past and future. It is up to her to figure out which. Having said that, I do think that Malkier will rise again. There are already men who are willing to ride under the Golden Crane. It isn't too much of a stretch to imagine the nation rising again.

[cloglord]

cloglord, how could you 'absolutely disagree'?

 

It's simple, I think about it, and if I don't agree with anything you said, then I absolutely disagree.  I read the Man who could juggle fire, Not Thom, to mean Thom's nephew Owen, and the White Tower as a reference to the women who gentled him.  If it were a reference to Mat, then I think it would require some pretty creative rationale for him to be juggling fire, and there are other instances that relate to Thom and Moraine, in which Moraine is represented by her forehead stone, and not the symbol of Aes Sedai'dom as a whole.  That said, I'm not saying with 100% certainty that you are wrong, only that I don't at all agree with your interpretation. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I took this to mean that Min was reading  something in Thom's aura about his past.  Considering the viewing of Lan in TEotW about the 7 towers and the baby in the cradle with the sword, are ALL of Min's viewings about the future, or did RJ give her a few in TEotW that were instead related to the past of those characters, and then later decided that Min's viewing were all future related.

 

RJ says:

 

Q - Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the 7 towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

 

A - Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

[Mat is Better]

Well that's good to know.  I always thought she just kind of read things about people. I didn't know it was always about the future (although a lot of the visions were obviously about the future).  That knowledge will make re-reading even funner.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

It makes sense that some of the viewings seem to portray the past. They're the important events that will impact the future.

 

btw, LOVE the sig Mat

[BrainFireBob]

Yes. The only viewing that looks to be of the past is the one of Lan:

 

Unless that's Lan's own son. Possible, since he'd just met Nynaeve and that thread of destiny was woven.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes. The only viewing that looks to be of the past is the one of Lan:

 

You did read the quote, right?  Its not like I make this stuff up ...

[cloglord]

RJ says:...

 

I know this, which is why I mentioned the possibility that RJ messed up on those few first viewings in TEotW.

 

Here's what I asked....

did RJ give her a few in TEotW that were instead related to the past of those characters, and then later decided that Min's viewing were all future related.

 

It wouldn't be the first time that RJ has made a mistake, or even the first time he made a mistake duiring one of his QotW.  So, I'll ask it again.

 

Do these two viewings reflect the past, and thus a mistake on RJ's part, or will Malkier rise again?  Will Thom visit the White Tower?