Encounters

[YoungKing]

*smiles* *waits* (not directed at you, youngking)

 

Hehe.

Here goes.

 

Graendal was neither a soldier in the war, nor a general. Her contribution was in the form of manipulation. Beyond that, however, i never claimed that Aviendha was more extensive in her knowledge of the power, I claimed that her warrior training would contribute to her ability to percieve and react to a sudden threat.

 

Graendal has never been a warrior. Aviendha is at her core. Beyond that she has the combined training of modern Wise Ones, modern Aes Sedai, and the Forsaken. The action of battle is limited, and the only real thing Graendal has over Aviendha is reversion... so yes, i disagree.

 

Sorry, it seemed like you were saying that a years worth of training and scraps from Moggy would put her on an equal level with Greandal.

 

1. I never even commented on Graendal's reflexive responses. I compare Aviendha to Cyndane and Moghedian... I do think that Graendal's reflexes will not compare with Aviendha's, but no, i never even remotely suggested that she had none. Or even that she had bad reflexes.

 

I guess because you seem to dismiss or ignore the fact that Greandal's reflexes(until now) with the OP, it seemed like you were dismissing them.

 

2. No, we don't know that she fought in the war of power. Indeed, like Asmodean, Mesaana and several others she was never a general or a soldier (she is actually one of the oldest Forsaken). Her role was manipulative, and intelligence based. So yes, no we don't know that.

 

3. I did not say that a years experience put Aviendha on par with Graendal. I said that in terms of their respective weaponlike weaves, Graendal has only reversion as far as we know. Aviendha having learned the weaves learned from Moghedian is capable of standing against Graendal in terms of knowledge of weaponary weaves. Beyond that she has Aes Sedai knowledge, and Aiel knowledge which Graendal does not.

 

I completely disagree with you here, specifically with the part about weaponlike weaves. You really think Aviendha knows as many weaves as Greandal? Even just weaponlike weaves? REALLY? Rand certainly knows many more offensive weaves than Aviendha and LT pulled out two new ones. Anything LT knows, you can be sure Greandal knows. Just because she prefers manipulation and such, doesn't mean she wouldn't know the weaves other people are using around her, or what could be used against her. She lived in a time when more was known about the OP than the people today could dream of. Could a fireball be more deadly than a deathgate, really? Who knows what Greandal really knows, but surely its more than fireballs and lightning. Even from what she's learned from Moggy, there is still no way she would have a tenth of the knowledge that Greandal has. How can you possible think that? Bah! I'm sure it's also safe to say that she would have been in an acually fight with the OP.

 

Firstly, Rand is not as much as five or six times stronger. RJ has stated that the male ranger of strengths stand one or two levels above the female. The female range covers twenty-one levels. If we take that twenty one level at a range of 1 to 100, then the male range extends at best 4 to 8 percent beyond the female.

 

The Aes Sedai cut off point is at 38.6% Based on that we know that Egwene and Elayne must stand at least around the 70 percentile (We know that the range covers around 20 percent, so Moiraine (Siuan, Romanda, Lelaine, Elaida) is somewhere around 60% and Egwene and Elayne and Aviendha exceed her enough for it to be conciderable). So yes, at least around 70 (since we know Cadsuane stands less than Egwene, yet conciderably higher than Moiraine), probably as high as 75, or even 80, though i concider that unlikely.

 

So, Rand stands at somewhere between 104 and 108. Addmitedly this is a very loose system, but its clear... he is not  '5 or 6 times' their strength. He is not even double their strength in a worse case scenario.

 

I really hate looking at strengths this way. To me it doesn't make any sense. It's much to limited, I don't think you can measure strength in the power this way, and you admit that it is a loose system.

 

You say that RJ has stated that male channelers are one or two levels above female channelers. Yeah, I agree. The majority of male channelers would be. You can't say this of Rand, he is above and beyond any male channeler except for the strongest of the male Forsaken and Logain and Taim. There is now way Egwene is nearly as strong as Taim or Logain. Nyneave isn't that strong. In LoC it took what, six fairly strong Aes Sedai(probably in the range of Moiraine) to shield Rand. That was how long ago? This is only speculation but I believe that if Rand were holding the power now it would take at least eight or nine Aes Sedai of that strength to cut him off. Probably more. I just hate the numbers system. It's so hard to speculate for anyone, but take it from the text. From what I gather, I think Rand is infact five or six times stronger than Eqwene and the bunch. You've got the fact that he is male already, plus he's the bloody Dragon Reborn. Another example, someone stated that Egwene pales in comparison to Nyneave. From the way it's described, I would consider it a larger difference than Egwene over Moiraine. On you're system you are looking at least 20, perhaps 25 "points". That would put her on Rand's strenght, and we know she is as strong as a very weak Forsaken.

 

I'm not trying to say you're dumb, because you;re a smart guy, I just think that system is total bs.

 

Yes, and Egwene weaves fourteen in KoD. And additionally, by that stage, Egwene had already managed three, and she hadn't actually been trying.

 

Ok so it took Egwene roughly two years to reach the ability that was at unaided and blind. Ok? She wouldn't even be that strong, just better at using the power.

 

Well, i answered most of that already. But beyond that Graendal likely can't exceed 90 percent, because Lanfear after being severed and healed by a woman is still stronger than Graendal, and given the Siuan and Leane's comparative decline it has to be somewhere between ten and fifteen percent.

 

Again, I think that the system is bs. Lanfear was probably a little under what Rand is now, so she would be weaker as Cyndane, but still stronger than someone like Taim.

 

Furthermore, Nynaeve might have been some distance from her full strength at the time she fought Moghedian, and the comparison between Elayne and Egwene to Nynaeve was only ever in terms of their final strength.

 

I doubt she would have been far from her final strength. She was what 25, 26, when she fought Moggy? There is also different parts in the earlier books where it states how far ahead Nyneave is. I remember specifically a part where Egwene thinks to herself that she can't even remember or follow most of the weaves that Nyneave can do, and that is within the first four books, I think three though I don't know for sure.

 

5. Reflexes are reflexes. The action that responds from them may be faster with channeling, yet that changes naught of the fact that reflexes are reflexes. How, precisely, will Graendals knowledge of channeling help her realise a threat? How will it distinguish between random Aiel, and an Aiel that realised that she is not what she seems?

 

Think of it like muscles. Aviendha has been training her muscles so that she is able to throw spears farther, move her body faster, hit harder, run farther, etc. Greandal's been training her Power's "muscle" in the same way, just over hundreds of years. She can weave better, faster, harder, longer. She is more instictive for it than Aviendha, just like Aviendha would be more instictive for a spear. She's going to be a lot better at blocking multiple sword strikes or whatnot, but when there's multiple attacks of the power coming at her, she's going to have a hard time. If Greandal concocted anything like Ishy did in TDR, basically ripping out her soul, how would she know to defend against it? Greandal would know every trick Aviendha could pull against her, or any other Forsaken would have killed her by now.

 

Anyway, it's hard to really judge the strengths for any of us, but I think taking facts or bits of examples from the books, even if it's not conclusive, is a lot better than a numbers system.

 

YK.

 

 

[Digbe]

Nevertheless, Aviendha is the proud recipient of all the knowledge, thereby making the Alivia comparison flawed. Recall, too, that whilst Moghedian may be uninclined to battle, so too is Graendal. She's a manipulator, not a warrior. Certainly, she is more brave then Moghedian, but more experienced?

 

Meanwhile, Aviendha IS a warrior, and don't count that out even if it was with spears and not the power that she fought. The spirit and the instinct does count. Recall too that she has some of her own tricks up her sleeve. Aiel Wise Ones essentially taught themselves from the beginning back when the Da'shain Aiel lost communication with the Aes Sedai. That breeds innovation, like the unravelling. Now all the information the Aes Sedai retained, plus the knowledge weaseled out of Moghedian have been meshed together in the first Aiel Wise One to take an active stance in battle, the first to have shrugged off, or not been trained, in the traditional non-agressive Wise One stance.

 

No, I don't think you should count Aviendha out. People have been ignoring Wise One channelers since the beginning, and where has it got them? A pet named Lyna, da'tsang turned loyal apprentices?

 

 

 

 

Luckers...

 

Just when I had thought to toss Avi on a spit and roast as that was all she has been good for, you go an sell one hell of a commercial making her a personal favorite of mine.  Long live Avi Skywalker!!!

[ilConte]

I don't remember Padan Fain having any grudge against Slayer but I may have missed it.But between Slayer and Perrin its nearly obvious as is the battle that must be fought, in my opinion, between Rand and Fain...they've had a grudge since the Great Hunt, it must be resolved.

I suppose Mat and Demandred does kind of make sense but you cant be sure...but Tuon and Aran'gar is just random...I don't remember them having anything against eachother and I don't even remember Aran'gar trying to kill Mat.

Well I suppose I should read them again.....

[Majsju]

Slayer have been hunting Fain on and off at least since Fain arrived with his pet whitecloaks in the Two Rivers, possibly even before that.

 

Perrin and Slayer...That was a random encounter, Slayer found Perrin where he should not be, saw him as an obstacle, and decided to do something about it. He will not actively go after Perrin unless ordered to do so by his superiors.

 

 

[lou]

actually graendal did command troops in the war of the shadow, and she governed lands conquered. she does prefer politiacal manipulation to open confrontation, but will not back away from it either (mog is the coward). graendal certainly does know the weave for balefire but i doubt she will feel that neccessary against aviendha. i think graendal could easily overpower avi, maidentrained or not.

 

ooops! it was messaana and semi who held feild commands. ???other than that, i would find it very odd if aviendha could overpower graendal, unless she just had a lucky day.

[cloglord]

I'm not trying to say you're dumb, because you;re a smart guy, I just think that system is total bs.

 

YoungKing, Its a good thing that you aren't underestimating Luckers, because He has spent quite a bit of time researching and arguing the points that he makes with his system.  To fill you in RJ has stated that he has a point system that he uses to keep track of relative strengths.  Luckers has taken that and run, using several examples and formula's that I don't care to try and even follow.  It is well thought out, and well reasoned, and you should read up on his theory before trying to take him on.  I'm not saying you can't disagree, merely that you'll have a fight on your hands, that you should be well prepared for.  If Luckers can remember where his theory is, maybe he'll post the thread here for you.

 

Think of it like muscles. Aviendha has been training her muscles so that she is able to throw spears farther, move her body faster, hit harder, run farther, etc. Greandal's been training her Power's "muscle" in the same way, just over hundreds of years

 

I don't think your analogy holds up.  Reflexes are a function of the nervous system, and are indicative of how fast you can think.  It has nothing to do with one muscle system or the other, either you can think and react quickly, or you can't.  Clearly Avhienda can, what is in doubt, is how fast is Graendal?

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Yes, Avi has heart and a fighting spirit, but I don't know how much of an advantage that would give her against Graendal. I don't think it makes sense to equate physical fighting reflexes with channeling reflexes. As has been stated, Graendal is no coward and though she generally avoids open confrontation, you can bet she knows some pretty nasty weaves. That being said, if it comes to an Avi versus Graendal confrontation, I think Avi would still come out on top with some "good guy luck". RJ doesn't seem very willing to lose main characters, does he? So many battles and dangerous situations, and hey, everybody's okay at the end.

[lou]

I don't remember Padan Fain having any grudge against Slayer but I may have missed it.But between Slayer and Perrin its nearly obvious as is the battle that must be fought, in my opinion, between Rand and Fain...they've had a grudge since the Great Hunt, it must be resolved.

I suppose Mat and Demandred does kind of make sense but you cant be sure...but Tuon and Aran'gar is just random...I don't remember them having anything against eachother and I don't even remember Aran'gar trying to kill Mat.

Well I suppose I should read them again.....

you did miss it. it was fain who led the trollocs through the ways to savage the two rivers, and slayer (lord luc) messed up all his carefully laid plans. fain had planned to savage rand's home in an effort to draw rand to him. fain is fairly petty with his grudges and has in POV mentioned the fact that he would love to get his hands on slayer.

[YoungKing]

YoungKing, Its a good thing that you aren't underestimating Luckers, because He has spent quite a bit of time researching and arguing the points that he makes with his system.  To fill you in RJ has stated that he has a point system that he uses to keep track of relative strengths.  Luckers has taken that and run, using several examples and formula's that I don't care to try and even follow.  It is well thought out, and well reasoned, and you should read up on his theory before trying to take him on.  I'm not saying you can't disagree, merely that you'll have a fight on your hands, that you should be well prepared for.  If Luckers can remember where his theory is, maybe he'll post the thread here for you.

 

Well, if there is such a system, based on a 1-100 scale, I guess strength in the power isn't such a big deal, if everyone is so close. Also, if it holds up, the way RJ has tried to articulate a channeler's strength in the OP is horrible. If a 75 is Egwene, for example, what would Nyneave's number be? Apparently Egwene "pales in comparison" to Nyneave. Not a direct quote, but pretty close. If Nyneave is 10 higher, well that's not much of a difference if you ask me. Look back at the example I used from TSR. Rand basically does five times the number of weaves, not too mention shielding two above average Aes Sedai channelers, something I doubt Egwene could pull off now. And he wouldn't even be twice the strength as her? After she said something to the effect of being "a kitten in the mouth of a mastiff." If that doesn't show that Rand is much, much stronger I don't know what does.

 

Unless an inscrease in five or ten points gives more ability to be able to handle many more weaves, stronger weaves, just do so much more with the power, than I find it hard to use it as a guide. Rand can do a heck of a lot more than Egwene, so it would be my guess that he is much stronger. Perhaps not something like five or six, but at least tow or three times.

 

I don't think your analogy holds up.  Reflexes are a function of the nervous system, and are indicative of how fast you can think.  It has nothing to do with one muscle system or the other, either you can think and react quickly, or you can't.  Clearly Avhienda can, what is in doubt, is how fast is Graendal?

 

Well maybe I didn't word it right. I think there is a completely unique set of reflexes used in channeling. I couldn't specifically say which, because unfortunatly I can't channel, but I would guess at how fast you can create a weave to counter-attack, how many different weaves you can keep going at the same time, things like that. Hopefully you get my drift. For Aviendha is almost an entirely new battlefield. She is the adolescent maiden and Greandal the weathered veteran. The reflexes Greandal has with the power are honed.

 

Hopefully that clears a bit up.

 

YK.

[ilConte]

Thanks Lou!It's all clear now, well I suppose I should read them again paying more attention because I've only read them twice and it seems I missed out relly important passages....Well thanks again.

ilConte

[Luckers]

All I can say is, Luckers, if the Tower being whole was truly their greatest concern, then they never would have split in the first place.  The reasons that were strong enough to make them split, would have kept them apart, if not forever, then long enough for Tarmon Gai'don to make the issue moot.

 

It's not their greatest concern, but deep down they feel that it SHOULD be. Even the Black sisters feel a desire to reunify it. You let the reason they split become stale in their minds, then they will slide back together, because the desire to be one will never grow stale.

 

You can ignore it all you want, myself ill listen to what the characters themselves have to say about the matter.

 

Its not evidence of the generic Sister's reaction.  The generic Sisters are greatly influenced by their leaders, to the point of -gasp- taking orders from them.

 

I could be sarcastic here, but im sick of it. Aes Sedai are mule headed hermits. Their own heirarchy has absolute power over their interactions, but when it comes to their deeper socialized beliefs such as unity in the tower it becomes moot.

 

And especially on this issue. The very idea of returning to the Tower involves leaving those leaders to be executed for treason.

 

"Well, excuse me Sitter, but i was thinking with the Amyrlin gone, and Tarmon Gai'don over the hill, we need unity amongst the Aes Sedai, so it might be best to return to the Tower even WITH Elaida. What are your thoughts?"

 

"Well, it'd be mighty unpleasent for me, but you know i think there are some merits to your position. However, have you considered--GUARDS!"

 

You know, i can tell when your intentionally misrepresenting the text--mostly because we sound alike when we do that.  This is a pointless argument, so lets drop it shall we?

 

Well, seriously, dude, I don't know how many times I have to say it, but since its a bloody channeling fight you're proposing, channeling reflexes are the ones that matter!

 

Sure, that'd be a factor. What's the relevance in denying that Aviendha's training as a warrior would be beneficial? None.

 

So why do you keep brining it up as some sort of argument?

 

"Why is the sky blue?"

 

"Well son, its because in a channeling fight, channeling reflexes are important."

 

"Ooooh. Now i get it."

 

Really?

 

So, what would Rand do, then?  Say .. oh, ok, well, I guess you can have it ...

 

Actually he wouldn't do anything, which is the point. Rand involved himself because of Elayne. Lacking her, in a land he personally described his occupation as being assistance, he would not interfere so long as the person who was making the claim would have respect for the nature of Tarmon Gai'don. The fact that he respects Dyelin simply sets it in stone.

 

What you're proposing would just lead to a conflict between Rand and Dyelin.  How is that not good for the Shadow?  Rand does happen to have the largest army in Andor at the time period in question.  If all the Houses support Dyelin, as you say, and he does not support her, as you say ... then Rand has to subjugate Andor by force.

 

Umm. Why? What would the bone of contention be?

 

And when did i say he would not support her? I said he would not involve himself nor state his approval or anything, but that doesn't mean he would not be pleased with her assesnsion to the throne--provided Elayne was dead, naturally.

 

You're ignoring the very real indications that the Shadow is influencing Arymilla.

 

But we're obviously not going to agree here either.  Frankly, the Rand thing trumps the Arymilla thing anyway.  And in another thread, I gave reasons why killing Elayne would still be good for the Shadow, even if Dyelin would have walked right onto the throne that same day.  Dyelin can be killed even more easily than Elayne.

 

I'm ignoring nothing. Without Arawn and Sarand Arymilla would not have had the strength to raise a claim, and thus would never have come under the Shadow's attention. Had events progressed as you suggest it would be Dyelin that became their focus.

 

And you know i concider you arguments that the shadow should kill every tom dick and harry suspect--oh, it'd be nice if they could achieve it, but its simply beyond their ability.

 

Lets not got back into that discussion though.

 

Comparative strength in the power was brought up earlier. I was wondering, does anyone know how Nynaeve compares to Rand? Also, since you have to be much stronger than someone else to break a shield, could Nynaeve break a shield set by Egwene/Elayne/Avi?...just thinking about that beacon/candle comparison.

 

Not really. It depends on if Alivia is as strong as a woman can be. If she is than we know that Rand stands one or two levels above her, and thus we add the comments comparing Nynaeve and Alivia... but even that is so loose that it becomes pointless.

 

Quote

*smiles* *waits* (not directed at you, youngking)

 

Hehe.

Here goes.

 

That really wasn't directed at you. One of the most controversial issues on this site is the issue of just how much strength Siuan and Leane lost--i was making a joke by stating it as certain (which it is, of course :)). It was more directed at the likes of Maj.

 

Quote

Graendal was neither a soldier in the war, nor a general. Her contribution was in the form of manipulation. Beyond that, however, i never claimed that Aviendha was more extensive in her knowledge of the power, I claimed that her warrior training would contribute to her ability to percieve and react to a sudden threat.

 

Graendal has never been a warrior. Aviendha is at her core. Beyond that she has the combined training of modern Wise Ones, modern Aes Sedai, and the Forsaken. The action of battle is limited, and the only real thing Graendal has over Aviendha is reversion... so yes, i disagree.

 

Sorry, it seemed like you were saying that a years worth of training and scraps from Moggy would put her on an equal level with Greandal.

 

Umm... well, I wasn't.

 

I WAS saying that Aviendha will be able to hold her own, but nowhere did i suggest that it was because what she learnt from Moghedian secondhand through Nynaeve and Elayne meant her knowledge was now comprable with Graendal. Certainly that knowledge will be massively beneficial, but yeah... I think I was fairly clear in my statements reguarding the multifluos sources of Aviendha's dangerousness.

 

 

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1. I never even commented on Graendal's reflexive responses. I compare Aviendha to Cyndane and Moghedian... I do think that Graendal's reflexes will not compare with Aviendha's, but no, i never even remotely suggested that she had none. Or even that she had bad reflexes.

 

I guess because you seem to dismiss or ignore the fact that Greandal's reflexes(until now) with the OP, it seemed like you were dismissing them.

 

I never dismissed or ignored Graendal's reflexes WITH THE POWER at any stage in this thread. Sorry.

 

I completely disagree with you here, specifically with the part about weaponlike weaves. You really think Aviendha knows as many weaves as Greandal?  REALLY?

 

Hey puppy, read before you write. It makes you look like less of a fool.

 

Seriously. Responding to a post that states that i do not think that Aviendha knows anywhere near as much about the Power as Graendal with "You really think Aviendha knows as many weaves as Greandal? Even just weaponlike weaves?" makes your comment look self-serving and distracts from your point. Either you did not read before you commented, or you intentionally added the first comment in order to make my position seem more outlandish. As I said, self-serving and pathetic.

 

And the answer is yes, i do believe that Aviendha's knowledge reguarding confrontational weaves will be comprable to Graendals. Of course, she does not know reversing, as i stated, and i have no doubt that Graendal will have a few surprises up her sleeve, but then so will Aviendha. In the end, yes, i completely believe Aviendha will be able to hold her own against Graendal.

 

Rand certainly knows many more offensive weaves than Aviendha and LT pulled out two new ones. Anything LT knows, you can be sure Greandal knows.

 

No, you cannot. LTT was a politician and a battle general, his expertise is worlds away from Graendals. Just because they lived in the same time, and took part in the same war does not mean they have the same knowledge.

 

And in terms of this i can state you to be wrong. The guide is quite explicit about the fact that Graendal never took part in battle.

 

Could a fireball be more deadly than a deathgate, really?

 

Umm, that is the worst example ive ever seen. Unless caught by the razor edge a deathgate is not even deadly to a human.

 

Who knows what Greandal really knows, but surely its more than fireballs and lightning. Even from what she's learned from Moggy, there is still no way she would have a tenth of the knowledge that Greandal has. How can you possible think that?

 

Puppy, i dont think that. Lol.

 

You say that RJ has stated that male channelers are one or two levels above female channelers. Yeah, I agree. The majority of male channelers would be. You can't say this of Rand, he is above and beyond any male channeler except for the strongest of the male Forsaken and Logain and Taim.

 

Actually mate, i can say this of Rand, because RJ said this of Rand. The upper male limit is one or two levels above that of the upper female limit.

 

And no, the majority of male channelers are not stronger than the upper female limit. Men are on average stronger, which means nothing more than the average male strength is slightly higher than the average female strength.

 

Sorry mate.

 

There is now way Egwene is nearly as strong as Taim or Logain.. Nyneave isn't that strong

 

Of course they arn't, but you are speaking of two men that stand a step below Rand, the upper male limit. They likely stand equal with Lanfear's old strength. 100, to Egwene's 70, and Nynaeve's 85.

 

In LoC it took what, six fairly strong Aes Sedai(probably in the range of Moiraine) to shield Rand.

 

Have you read the books? Firstly, there were fifteen Aes Sedai present when Rand was shielded. Thirteen linked to shield him whilst the other two wove air to restrain him.

 

Secondly Moiraine, Romanda, Lelaine, Elaida and Siuan's old strengths are the highest strength in the Tower next to Cadsuane. No one else equals them. The Aes Sedai that took place in the confrontation do not equal them. If more than one was even close to their strength i'd be deeply startled. The same goes from the group that confronted Rand in Caemlyn. Even with an angreal and at somewhere around twice his normal strength he was concerned he could not stand against seven Aes Sedai.

 

This is only speculation but I believe that if Rand were holding the power now it would take at least eight or nine Aes Sedai of that strength to cut him off. Probably more. I just hate the numbers system. It's so hard to speculate for anyone, but take it from the text. From what I gather, I think Rand is infact five or six times stronger than Eqwene and the bunch. You've got the fact that he is male already, plus he's the bloody Dragon Reborn. Another example, someone stated that Egwene pales in comparison to Nyneave. From the way it's described, I would consider it a larger difference than Egwene over Moiraine. On you're system you are looking at least 20, perhaps 25 "points". That would put her on Rand's strenght, and we know she is as strong as a very weak Forsaken.

 

Mate, I am sorry, but your speculation is disproven by the books and by RJ himself. The number system is a very loose idea that serves only general understanding, yet it makes certain things clear, such as this issue.

 

And additionally, we do not know that Moghedian is a 'very weak Forsaken'. We know that she is weaker than Lanfear, and that she is a timid person when it comes to direct battle. Nothing more.

 

Ok so it took Egwene roughly two years to reach the ability that was at unaided and blind. Ok? She wouldn't even be that strong, just better at using the power.

 

Of course it took her longer than him. She's weaker. And sorry but it is made clear that the ability to devide flows is indeed linked to streangth--which, i suspect is why you raised the whole Rand weaving twelve flows in the first place.

 

Again, I think that the system is bs. Lanfear was probably a little under what Rand is now, so she would be weaker as Cyndane, but still stronger than someone like Taim.

 

That seems to me to completely contradict what you said earlie, but whatever. In any case you are likely wrong. Taim is a bare step below Rand, and likely at, or slightly above, Lanfear's original strength. As Cyndane she is weaker than Taim.

 

I doubt she would have been far from her final strength. She was what 25, 26, when she fought Moggy? There is also different parts in the earlier books where it states how far ahead Nyneave is. I remember specifically a part where Egwene thinks to herself that she can't even remember or follow most of the weaves that Nyneave can do, and that is within the first four books, I think three though I don't know for sure.

 

The incident you are speaking of is the healing of Elayne following her being struck in the head with a stone in book three. I'm afraid i dont see the significance. Nynaeve's ability with healing is well remarked upon, and it doesn't imply anything about whether or not she has reached her final strength. Plenty of women much weaker than Nynaeve have great dexterity with healing--Sumeko even surpasses Nynaeve.

 

If a woman is not forced, it can take between ten and twenty years to reach her full strength. We know that as of the Great Hunt Nynaeve had not yet reached hers--Moiraine states that at that time Nynaeve was roughly around her own strength ('as strong as any woman in the tower' and Moiraine is at that top strength).

 

Whether Nynaeve would have reached her full strength in the year following that comment is unknown, though it seems unlikely.

 

Think of it like muscles. Aviendha has been training her muscles so that she is able to throw spears farther, move her body faster, hit harder, run farther, etc. Greandal's been training her Power's "muscle" in the same way, just over hundreds of years. She can weave better, faster, harder, longer. She is more instictive for it than Aviendha, just like Aviendha would be more instictive for a spear. She's going to be a lot better at blocking multiple sword strikes or whatnot, but when there's multiple attacks of the power coming at her, she's going to have a hard time. If Greandal concocted anything like Ishy did in TDR, basically ripping out her soul, how would she know to defend against it? Greandal would know every trick Aviendha could pull against her, or any other Forsaken would have killed her by now.

 

Which again has absolutely no relevance to my point. I tried to explain this to Robert time and again. Aviendha is trained in recognizing a threath--look at her realisation of the Master of the Blade when she met the Sea Folk--and reacting to it. It is this that would be beneficial. I never suggested even remotely that her muscle memory and physical fitness would exceed Graendal's comparative experience with the Power. Ever.

 

And all i get in response is these ongoing replies 'but Aviendha fought with a spear, not the power, silly.'

 

Bah.

 

Anyway, it's hard to really judge the strengths for any of us, but I think taking facts or bits of examples from the books, even if it's not conclusive, is a lot better than a numbers system.

 

Aye. But to do that you need to actually use facts, not your 'feeling' from when you read them. Rand is not five or six times as strong as Egwene--indeed he is not even twice as strong.

 

YoungKing, Its a good thing that you aren't underestimating Luckers, because He has spent quite a bit of time researching and arguing the points that he makes with his system.  To fill you in RJ has stated that he has a point system that he uses to keep track of relative strengths.  Luckers has taken that and run, using several examples and formula's that I don't care to try and even follow.  It is well thought out, and well reasoned, and you should read up on his theory before trying to take him on.  I'm not saying you can't disagree, merely that you'll have a fight on your hands, that you should be well prepared for.  If Luckers can remember where his theory is, maybe he'll post the thread here for you.

 

You honour me. But i would point out again that the numbers system ive made is loose at best, and made only for general examination--indeed, it was to address claims such as that Rand must be five or six times as strong.

 

We cannot state that Rand is precisely 107.283 units of strength whilst Egwene as 70.21284. But we can say that roughly speaking, they stand around that area.

 

Well, if there is such a system, based on a 1-100 scale, I guess strength in the power isn't such a big deal, if everyone is so close. Also, if it holds up, the way RJ has tried to articulate a channeler's strength in the OP is horrible.

 

Dude, you would blame your misperception of the text on RJ? Others have no real problems, and the facts were all there for you to find.

 

If a 75 is Egwene, for example, what would Nyneave's number be? Apparently Egwene "pales in comparison" to Nyneave. Not a direct quote, but pretty close. If Nyneave is 10 higher, well that's not much of a difference if you ask me.

 

Umm, why? Because the number 10 is a low number? Would it appease you if we put everyong on a scale of 1000 so that Nynaev could be 100 units stronger than Egwene?

 

Look back at the example I used from TSR. Rand basically does five times the number of weaves, not too mention shielding two above average Aes Sedai channelers, something I doubt Egwene could pull off now. And he wouldn't even be twice the strength as her? After she said something to the effect of being "a kitten in the mouth of a mastiff." If that doesn't show that Rand is much, much stronger I don't know what does.

 

No, he would not have to be twice as strong as her. Especially since she later goes on to be able to produce more weaves than he did.

 

What is your contention? That its not dramatic enough for you?

 

Unless an inscrease in five or ten points gives more ability to be able to handle many more weaves, stronger weaves, just do so much more with the power, than I find it hard to use it as a guide. Rand can do a heck of a lot more than Egwene, so it would be my guess that he is much stronger. Perhaps not something like five or six, but at least tow or three times.

 

It does indeed come with that. The common Aes Sedai can manage deviding her weaves in two, the higher ranks can manage three, Moiraine and her ilk can handle four weaves, and thats just within the limited range of the Aes Sedai strength. Egwene we see manage fourteen, Rand, when he has less than a years experience under his belt (even if he was forced) can already manage twelve.

 

The same goes with gateways, somewhere between the Aes Sedai lower cut of strength and the average we see strength mean a difference between a gateway the size of a fist and a gateway the size of a man.

 

So yes, you personally may not like it, but from RJ we can state for sure that Rand is not even twice Egwene's strength.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aviendha is trained in recognizing a threath--look at her realisation of the Master of the Blade when she met the Sea Folk--and reacting to it.

 

LOL ... thank you for making my point.  The Master of the Blades was not a channeling threat, he was a potential physical one.  The recognition signs are not the same.

 

 

But hey, we disagree.  Neither of us finds the other's points compelling, so ... -shrug-

 

OK.

[Darkness Incarnated]

From Luckers:

 

Beyond that, the claim is not that Aviendha has learnt more than the Chosen. It is that with the knowledge learnt from Moghedian plus the Aiel training she is formidable enough to hold her own in battle. In terms of weaves the only advantage that Graendal has currently is reversion.

 

Graendal was neither a soldier in the war, nor a general. Her contribution was in the form of manipulation. Beyond that, however, i never claimed that Aviendha was more extensive in her knowledge of the power, I claimed that her warrior training would contribute to her ability to percieve and react to a sudden threat.

 

Beyond that she has the combined training of modern Wise Ones, modern Aes Sedai, and the Forsaken. The action of battle is limited, and the only real thing Graendal has over Aviendha is reversion... so yes, i disagree.

 

Just how long did Aviendha’s entire training last? She’s still a Wise One apprentice, which to me means she hasn’t learnt all that she need to. Yes, she received some knowledge from the ‘modern’ Wise Ones, but by no means all of it. Furthermore, one thing you seem to ignore is that the Wise Ones don’t use the One Power to fight (not until Dumai’s Well anyway, and I don’t remember seeing them do anything ‘awesome’). Does that mean that they don’t know any dangerous weaves? No. I am sure they know some, but their knowledge is not very extensive, since they don’t use them. Perhaps I am not aware of this, but I don’t think the Wise Ones, whilst training their apprentices, start with killing weaves. I would think that they would reserve those for later. (A ball of fire is not something I consider overly dangerous, since it can help in other situation that don’t involve a fight, like fending off a lion for instance). All in all, Aviendha did receive training from the Wise Ones, but I would not exactly praise it.

 

Then there is the training from ‘modern’ Aes Sedai. Which Aes Sedai exactly trained her? Seriously, I don’t remember. Moiraine, while they were in the Waste? She would only give the basics, nothing dangerous. Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve? Just how much training do these three have? I can only speculate here, but I don’t believe they would be full Sisters if they were in the Tower proper. If the Wonder Girls are the ones that ‘trained’ Aviendha, they would know only what full Sisters pass on to them in their classes. Which, IMHO doesn’t include deadly weaves; they are, after all, still Accepted. Or it could be that they don't have much to learn, and thus they already know what there is to know? Though I seem to remember the Wonder Girls running around the world, not exactly following classes. I don't know whether tha's a + or a -. But I don’t have the books, so if there is any mention that Accepted are taught such weaves, or that another Sister taught Aviendha, please quote the passage, and of course the above will be moot.

 

 

Sorry, but her [Graendal] role as a warrior is quite clear, and furthermore backed up by her reaction to the threat from Moghedian and Cyndane.

 

Graendal has never been a warrior. Aviendha is at her core.

 

Hmmm, which one is it?

 

Umm, actually Graendal did NOT command troups in the War of the Shadow. From the Guide "Whilst not a military commander in the field, Graendal was apparently responsible for several significant gains, and for a variety of successful subversive efforts. One source states 'Graendal conqured territories as surely as the Shadow's generals, but her battleground was her enemies minds.'"

 

2. No, we don't know that she fought in the war of power. Indeed, like Asmodean, Mesaana and several others she was never a general or a soldier (she is actually one of the oldest Forsaken). Her role was manipulative, and intelligence based. So yes, no we don't know that.

 

4. Graendal's lifetime of knowledge concerns the function of psychology. Her experience with the Power is certainly a point on her side, but not in terms of confrontation, beyond the speed of her weaving (which again, is a point on her side). Moghedian's revelations, reluctant or not, would have covered as much as Graendal had experience over.

 

More specifically, where do you have any indication that her training even touched on battle with the power? Where do you have any indications about her training at all, aside from her psychologically expertise?

 

The emphasis is mine. The statement in bold is what I call a sweeping statement. At one point or another, the knowledge that Graendal [and the other Forsaken/Darkfriends who could channel] was a Shadow minion became public knowledge. One very likely consequence of this I see is that she was placed high on the Light’s target list. Furthermore, given that we know that Forsaken were competitive among themselves, it was very likely that she was on her fellow Chosen’s lists as well. At some point Graendal had to realize that her expertise of the mind was not going to save her hide at all. So what's the next logical move? To learn those killing weaves we're talking about. In my view, if I learn just the basics of driving a car, I'm not fit to participate in a race (an earlier example of mine). Graendal--or any other Forsaken for that matter--could not just stop at a few weaves. She maybe no expert, but she should know a lot about fighting. Unless, of course, she hid the whole time. The statement in bold: you are of course under the impression that she knows little about fighting. As far as I can see, fighting does not require any special aptitude. It’s as if you are saying that because Nynaeve—or Semirhage—is such an exceptional healer she knows nothing about fighting. I contend that Graendal knows more than Moghedien; the latter is the coward one who prefers to operate from the shadows. Graendal is more of a risk-taker (than Moghedien), and I don’t see her exposing herself unless she is sure she can come out unharmed.

 

5. Reflexes are reflexes. The action that responds from them may be faster with channeling, yet that changes naught of the fact that reflexes are reflexes. How, precisely, will Graendals knowledge of channeling help her realise a threat? How will it distinguish between random Aiel, and an Aiel that realised that she is not what she seems?

 

And how exactly is Aviendha going to see Graendal as a threat? She doesn’t walk around with a sign on her forehead that says that she is a Forsaken. Unless, of course, her dresses give her away.

 

In terms of training in recognition and reaction to an enemy, Aviendha exceeds both Moghedian and Cyndane by far. Add familiarity to the Power (which she lacked in her initial interaction with Lanfear) and yes, she is more formidable.

 

To quote Robert:

 

Aviendha is trained in recognizing a threath--look at her realisation of the Master of the Blade when she met the Sea Folk--and reacting to it.

 

LOL ... thank you for making my point.  The Master of the Blades was not a channeling threat, he was a potential physical one.  The recognition signs are not the same.

 

Rhuarc will instantly recognize Lan as a deadly warrior, and he doesn't need to see his sword to know it. The reverse holds true, Lan won't need to see spears or such to see an experienced and extremely dangerous man in Rhuarc. The signs are physical, outside to see. Channeling is different.

 

 

[YoungKing]

I'm not sure what else to say, because guy can't see what is right infront of his face.

 

I WAS saying that Aviendha will be able to hold her own, but nowhere did i suggest that it was because what she learnt from Moghedian secondhand through Nynaeve and Elayne meant her knowledge was now comprable with Graendal.

 

How can she possible be able to hold her own against a Forsaken if her knowledge of the OP isn't on an equal level with her enemy?

 

And no, you haven't been clear at all. It's mainly what you AREN'T saying that is making you look like a fool.

 

I never dismissed or ignored Graendal's reflexes WITH THE POWER at any stage in this thread. Sorry.

 

Yes you have. You go on and on about Aviendha's warrior training and how that's going to put her on an even playing field with Greandal, because she will apparently have better relexes(you said yourself she doesn't have the knowledge). Well, where do you take into account Greandal's reflexes with the power? That's gotta be worth something.

 

No, you cannot. LTT was a politician and a battle general, his expertise is worlds away from Graendals. Just because they lived in the same time, and took part in the same war does not mean they have the same knowledge.

 

And in terms of this i can state you to be wrong. The guide is quite explicit about the fact that Graendal never took part in battle.

 

You don't need to fight in a war to know how to fire a gun. See what I'm saying?

 

 

Your contention was that the reflexes she developed in training for physical combat would give her an edge.  Now you're talking about the channeling she's learned in the interim?  Which is it?  The idea that her just over a year of training since would give her abilities equalling those of people who were, for all intents and purposes, professional channelers for centuries, is, in my opinion, nothing short of absurd.

 

I'm sorry, what?

 

One of my suggestions is that her reflexes in percieving and reacting to threats would give her an edge, and that whilst her lack of training in channeling interfered with her response in FoH, that lack of training is no longer an issue because she had now had training, and more specifically, experience.

 

I'm confused as to what you are going on about, but thats my position there.

 

 

Her physical reflexes simply don't apply.  And her channeling reflexes are inferior.  The only times the Forsaken have been beaten are when Rand was in the fray (with his ta'veren-ness, good tools, etc), or when the Forsaken beat themselves (Lanfear and Be'lal ignoring Moiraine, Moghedien getting suckered in Tel'aran'rhiod, well equipped circles at the Cleansing, etc).  Graendal has not shown the propensity toward ignoring modern channelers, so I doubt the second will obtain, and if Rand is involved, my assessment if the situation changes dramatically.

 

You think that her training in recognizing and responding to a sudden new threat don't apply to a situation in which she is forced to recognize and respond to a sudden new threat?

 

Forgive me if I am confused.

 

I don't know, I can see what he's saying there. I'm going to try and break this down simply for you, puppy.

 

Equal strength in the power, because of the angreals.

Greandal knows much, much more concerning everything to do with the power.

Greandal has experience hundreds of years experience using the power, compared to, two?

Greandal is one of the Forsaken not been killed, showing that she isn't an arrogant fool like the rest.

Greandal has better natural reflexes with the power.(see below)

Aviendha has better PHYSICAL reflexes and is able to respond to a VISUAL threat better than Greandal.

 

Dude, i dont know how many times i have to say this, it was never even a suggestion that Aviendha was better at channeling reflexively than Graendal. Seriously....

 

You say Avi doesn't have the knowledge, Greandal knows more, has more experience, is smart, has basically every advantage except better physical reflexes and being able to see and respond to a threat. And you believe that puts her on an equal level with Greandal?

I WAS saying that Aviendha will be able to hold her own

Ok? Where are you getting this from? Because she has some tidbits from another Forsaken who didn't go around battling others? Because she will be able to respond to a threat? Because she has good physical reflexes? She has no advantage over Greandal concerning anything with the power. NONE. Yet she can hold her own. K. Excuse me if I find your reasoning absurd.

 

Seriously. Responding to a post that states that i do not think that Aviendha knows anywhere near as much about the Power as Graendal with "You really think Aviendha knows as many weaves as Greandal? Even just weaponlike weaves?" makes your comment look self-serving and distracts from your point. Either you did not read before you commented, or you intentionally added the first comment in order to make my position seem more outlandish. As I said, self-serving and pathetic.

 

And the answer is yes, i do believe that Aviendha's knowledge reguarding confrontational weaves will be comprable to Graendals. Of course, she does not know reversing, as i stated, and i have no doubt that Graendal will have a few surprises up her sleeve, but then so will Aviendha. In the end, yes, i completely believe Aviendha will be able to hold her own against Graendal.

 

Well that was nice. I appreciate the insults.

 

3. I did not say that a years experience put Aviendha on par with Graendal. I said that in terms of their respective weaponlike weaves, Graendal has only reversion as far as we know. Aviendha having learned the weaves learned from Moghedian is capable of standing against Graendal in terms of knowledge of weaponary weaves. Beyond that she has Aes Sedai knowledge, and Aiel knowledge which Graendal does not.

 

Humbly excuse me, lord, if I quoted something you said, saying that they are on par in terms of knowledge of weaponlike weaves, and came to the conclusion that you believe Aviendha knows as much as Greandal. Because a couple weaves learned from Moggy puts her on par with Greandal. That definately makes me self serving and pathetic, yes. And I'm sure all that Aes Sedai training Aviendha's had will help her out a great deal.  ::)

 

Who knows what Greandal really knows, but surely its more than fireballs and lightning. Even from what she's learned from Moggy, there is still no way she would have a tenth of the knowledge that Greandal has. How can you possible think that?

 

Puppy, i dont think that. Lol.

 

Well, puppy, it seems that you believe not knowing a tenth of what Greandal knows will give her an even chance against the Forsaken. K. ::) She doesn't know a fraction of what the Forsaken knows, yet she stands a chance....

 

You say that RJ has stated that male channelers are one or two levels above female channelers. Yeah, I agree. The majority of male channelers would be. You can't say this of Rand, he is above and beyond any male channeler except for the strongest of the male Forsaken and Logain and Taim.

 

Actually mate, i can say this of Rand, because RJ said this of Rand. The upper male limit is one or two levels above that of the upper female limit.

 

And no, the majority of male channelers are not stronger than the upper female limit. Men are on average stronger, which means nothing more than the average male strength is slightly higher than the average female strength.

 

Where did I say that the majority of male channelers are stronger than the upper limit of female channelers? I said That I AGREE that the majority of male channelers will be a bit above female channelers. I never said the strongest females, just the general ones. Seems like you are trying to make me say more than I am... Self serving and pathetic?

 

In LoC it took what, six fairly strong Aes Sedai(probably in the range of Moiraine) to shield Rand.

 

Have you read the books? Firstly, there were fifteen Aes Sedai present when Rand was shielded. Thirteen linked to shield him whilst the other two wove air to restrain him.

 

He broke out of the shield with six channelers holding it. Although I do believe three were tied off. I may be a bit off. That is what I was referring too.

 

Secondly Moiraine, Romanda, Lelaine, Elaida and Siuan's old strengths are the highest strength in the Tower next to Cadsuane. No one else equals them. The Aes Sedai that took place in the confrontation do not equal them. If more than one was even close to their strength i'd be deeply startled. The same goes from the group that confronted Rand in Caemlyn. Even with an angreal and at somewhere around twice his normal strength he was concerned he could not stand against seven Aes Sedai.

 

Of course you would be deeply startled, you know everything about all the channelers' strengths based on your numbers system. You don't think Elaida would send fifteen of her strongest Aes Sedai. They couldn't be any less than three points away from Moiraine, if Nyneave is ten higher than Egwene, or whatever.

 

And additionally, we do not know that Moghedian is a 'very weak Forsaken'. We know that she is weaker than Lanfear, and that she is a timid person when it comes to direct battle. Nothing more.

 

Nah, she just stalks the shadows and waits for the opportune moment to attack, when her enemy is weak, just for fun. That doesn't imply that she isn't on the weaker side. Nope, not at all.

 

The incident you are speaking of is the healing of Elayne following her being struck in the head with a stone in book three. I'm afraid i dont see the significance. Nynaeve's ability with healing is well remarked upon, and it doesn't imply anything about whether or not she has reached her final strength. Plenty of women much weaker than Nynaeve have great dexterity with healing--Sumeko even surpasses Nynaeve.

 

If a woman is not forced, it can take between ten and twenty years to reach her full strength. We know that as of the Great Hunt Nynaeve had not yet reached hers--Moiraine states that at that time Nynaeve was roughly around her own strength ('as strong as any woman in the tower' and Moiraine is at that top strength).

 

Whether Nynaeve would have reached her full strength in the year following that comment is unknown, though it seems unlikely.

 

Pehaps you are right about the first part. Also, you seem to think that you know for sure how long it takes a woman to reach her full strength? Moiraine is fifteen or twenty years older than Nyneave, roughly, and she has certainly reached her full potential. Acually, I belieave that when she was raised to Aes Sedai she was stronger than most other Aes Sedai. She couldn't have been much more than twenty four. My memory is a bit hazy on that, so don't go crucifying me if I'm a bit off.

 

As for your "loosely" based numbers system that proves everything, there's not enough clarified for me to see much truth to it. Perhaps you can give me a link where RJ has come up with his own? Also, why does Rand have to be limited to being a couple points over Alivia. It cannot be because she is at the upper limit of being a female channeler, even if there is a points where one cannot get any stronger. I say this because Rand is twenty-two, I believe, and has a few years left to develop his full potential(in the perfect world), but according to the system he can only be a few points higher than Alivia because she is the strongest female? Perhaps on average the men are a coupe points above, but in the upper limits of channeling strength, where it is out of the ordinary, that doesn't apply?

 

I should point to DI's post because he seemed to say what I was trying to say about learning the weaves, and to just about any post from RAW that confused you. Perhaps you should reread it?

 

Also, not sure why I was called a puppy? No better insults? C'mon.

 

YK.

 

[cloglord]

How can she possible be able to hold her own against a Forsaken if her knowledge of the OP isn't on an equal level with her enemy?

 

Which is, I believe, why Luckers said that a OP battle would be limited in nature.  If Avhienda knows the top 5 deadliest weaves ever known, and Graendal knows the top 100 deadliest weaves ever known, and they both only use the top five, Graendal's expansive knowledge doesn't really come into play does it?

 

You don't need to fight in a war to know how to fire a gun. See what I'm saying?

 

Nope, but a soldier probably has better aim than a psychologist.

 

Nah, she just stalks the shadows and waits for the opportune moment to attack, when her enemy is weak, just for fun. That doesn't imply that she isn't on the weaker side. Nope, not at all.

 

It implies something about her courage not her power.  Aginor/Osingar/Dashiva was next in power after Ishmael, and that didn't keep him from skulking around during the cleansing, and it didn't keep him from getting killed by someone with less training and less knowledge at Shadar Logoth,... or the first time at TEotW for that matter.

 

Acually, I belieave that when she was raised to Aes Sedai she was stronger than most other Aes Sedai. She couldn't have been much more than twenty four. My memory is a bit hazy on that, so don't go crucifying me if I'm a bit off.

 

It is also mentioned that neither she nor Suian had yet reached their full potential by that time.

 

Also, not sure why I was called a puppy?

 

It's an Australian thing.

 

 

[YoungKing]

Gotta make this quick before work.

 

Which is, I believe, why Luckers said that a OP battle would be limited in nature.  If Avhienda knows the top 5 deadliest weaves ever known, and Graendal knows the top 100 deadliest weaves ever known, and they both only use the top five, Graendal's expansive knowledge doesn't really come into play does it?

 

She doesn't know the top five deadliest weaves, other than balefire.

 

Nope, but a soldier probably has better aim than a psychologist.

 

Anyone can learn enough basic knowledge to weild a gun and give a decent level of protection. You don't have to be a bloody general or the greatest channeler of all time to learn the nasty weaves, etc.

 

It implies something about her courage not her power.  Aginor/Osingar/Dashiva was next in power after Ishmael, and that didn't keep him from skulking around during the cleansing, and it didn't keep him from getting killed by someone with less training and less knowledge at Shadar Logoth,... or the first time at TEotW for that matter.

 

I believe Lanfear was right under Ishamael. Anyway, would someone who is extremely powerful lack enough courage to fight someone face to face, knowing they would win? yeah she's a chicken, but its most likely due to her lack of strength.

 

It is also mentioned that neither she nor Suian had yet reached their full potential by that time.

 

But they were close to it at around 23 to 25.

 

It's an Australian thing.

 

Weird, eh.

[cloglord]

She doesn't know the top five deadliest weaves, other than balefire.

 

Depends on how you define a deadly weave.  I'd say that there are a number of weaves/abilities that would be primary to any OP battle.  1. The ability to shield.  2.  The ability to invert your weaves.  3. The ability/weave for cutting another weave.  4.  Balefire  Coincidently enough, Avhienda knows how to do all of these things.  Say, this hypothetical fight were to occur, how long would it take?  2 minutes, 2 seconds.  How many obscure or arcane weaves can come up in 2 seconds?  Who can say? 

 

Ishamael. Anyway, would someone who is extremely powerful lack enough courage to fight someone face to face, knowing they would win?

 

Yes, her name is Moghedian.

 

But they were close to it at around 23 to 25.

 

No, they said it would still be years before they would reach their potential.  That's why Siuan got stuck as the aprentice spymaster instead of accompaning Moraine on the Hunt for the DR, she wasn't strong enough to simply overrule her sisters and leave.

[Luckers]

Aviendha is trained in recognizing a threath--look at her realisation of the Master of the Blade when she met the Sea Folk--and reacting to it.

 

LOL ... thank you for making my point.  The Master of the Blades was not a channeling threat, he was a potential physical one.  The recognition signs are not the same.

 

 

But hey, we disagree.  Neither of us finds the other's points compelling, so ... -shrug-

 

OK.

 

Lol, mate, you really can be blind when you chose to be. Because, yeah, it makes your point, but your point has never addressed my point.

 

So no, we don't disagree, I agree with that comment, and you've still as yet to address mine.

 

Just how long did Aviendha’s entire training last? She’s still a Wise One apprentice, which to me means she hasn’t learnt all that she need to. Yes, she received some knowledge from the ‘modern’ Wise Ones, but by no means all of it. Furthermore, one thing you seem to ignore is that the Wise Ones don’t use the One Power to fight (not until Dumai’s Well anyway, and I don’t remember seeing them do anything ‘awesome’). Does that mean that they don’t know any dangerous weaves? No. I am sure they know some, but their knowledge is not very extensive, since they don’t use them. Perhaps I am not aware of this, but I don’t think the Wise Ones, whilst training their apprentices, start with killing weaves. I would think that they would reserve those for later. (A ball of fire is not something I consider overly dangerous, since it can help in other situation that don’t involve a fight, like fending off a lion for instance). All in all, Aviendha did receive training from the Wise Ones, but I would not exactly praise it.

 

1. Her trainign has lasted about a year, and been interupted at that. And I never suggested that she has learnt everything that the Wise Ones know, only that Wise Ones due to the origins of their organisations have some innovative methos of weaving completely unknown to Aes Sedai or Forsaken, and that they have been constantly ignored and dismissed.

 

2. I did not ignore that Wise Ones don't use the Power as a weapon. I commented on it several times.

 

3. I never suggested that Aviendha would have any specific killing weave knowledge from her training as a Wise One.

 

Then there is the training from ‘modern’ Aes Sedai. Which Aes Sedai exactly trained her? Seriously, I don’t remember. Moiraine, while they were in the Waste? She would only give the basics, nothing dangerous. Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve? Just how much training do these three have? I can only speculate here, but I don’t believe they would be full Sisters if they were in the Tower proper. If the Wonder Girls are the ones that ‘trained’ Aviendha, they would know only what full Sisters pass on to them in their classes. Which, IMHO doesn’t include deadly weaves; they are, after all, still Accepted. Or it could be that they don't have much to learn, and thus they already know what there is to know? Though I seem to remember the Wonder Girls running around the world, not exactly following classes. I don't know whether tha's a + or a -. But I don’t have the books, so if there is any mention that Accepted are taught such weaves, or that another Sister taught Aviendha, please quote the passage, and of course the above will be moot.

 

She learnt from Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, and as to your comment about them not knowing eveything, here is a direct comment of Bennae Nalsad's after directly studying Egwene's knowledge of the Power.

 

I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn

 

When added to the fact that every other Aes Sedai in the Tower give up teaching her the Power, it makes a clear point.

 

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Sorry, but her [Graendal] role as a warrior is quite clear, and furthermore backed up by her reaction to the threat from Moghedian and Cyndane.

 

 

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Graendal has never been a warrior. Aviendha is at her core.

 

Hmmm, which one is it?

 

I'm sorry. What do you mean? Graendal's role as a warrior is made quite clear by the entry in the guide--specifically she NEVER acted as a warrior in the Shadow's war.

 

And how exactly is Aviendha going to see Graendal as a threat? She doesn’t walk around with a sign on her forehead that says that she is a Forsaken. Unless, of course, her dresses give her away.

 

It's funny that you should phrase it that way, because Graendal's streith could very well give her away to someone with Aviendha's talent.

 

Beyond that i more than addressed this comment, so go read.

 

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In terms of training in recognition and reaction to an enemy, Aviendha exceeds both Moghedian and Cyndane by far. Add familiarity to the Power (which she lacked in her initial interaction with Lanfear) and yes, she is more formidable.

 

To quote Robert:

 

 

Quote from: RobertAlexWillis on September 12, 2007, 03:43:07 AM

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Aviendha is trained in recognizing a threath--look at her realisation of the Master of the Blade when she met the Sea Folk--and reacting to it.

 

LOL ... thank you for making my point.  The Master of the Blades was not a channeling threat, he was a potential physical one.  The recognition signs are not the same.

 

 

Rhuarc will instantly recognize Lan as a deadly warrior, and he doesn't need to see his sword to know it. The reverse holds true, Lan won't need to see spears or such to see an experienced and extremely dangerous man in Rhuarc. The signs are physical, outside to see. Channeling is different.

 

To quote Robert would be very stupid, since he has not once addressed what i am commenting on.

 

The again restate it. I am not commenting on Aviendha's preception of Graendal's channeling. I state that AVIENDHA IS TRAINED IN RECOGNISING THREATS. She percieves whether people are being threatening or could be threatening based on their stance and so forth.

 

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I WAS saying that Aviendha will be able to hold her own, but nowhere did i suggest that it was because what she learnt from Moghedian secondhand through Nynaeve and Elayne meant her knowledge was now comprable with Graendal.

 

How can she possible be able to hold her own against a Forsaken if her knowledge of the OP isn't on an equal level with her enemy?

 

And no, you haven't been clear at all. It's mainly what you AREN'T saying that is making you look like a fool.

 

Yeah. Ok then, clearly i havn't been clear enough for you. I am quite sorry.

 

1. Graendal knows alot.

2. Aviendha doesn't know as much.

3. In a fight specific knowledge is important.

4. Graendal has no particualr experience with THAT knowledge.

5. Aviendha has learned alot of that sort of knowledge.

6. Aviendha and Graendal are comprable in that area of knowledge.

 

Is that simple enough for you? I'm not sure i can get more simple.

 

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I never dismissed or ignored Graendal's reflexes WITH THE POWER at any stage in this thread. Sorry.

 

 

Yes you have. You go on and on about Aviendha's warrior training and how that's going to put her on an even playing field with Greandal, because she will apparently have better relexes(you said yourself she doesn't have the knowledge). Well, where do you take into account Greandal's reflexes with the power? That's gotta be worth something.

 

Listen to me very carefully. I stated that Aviendha's training as a warrior will help her with her fight with Graendal because her training specifically covers realising a threat, and being able to react to it. I did not say that it put her on an even playing field with Graendal.

 

I mean honestly, do you even read before you respond?

 

And as to your final question, the issue of Graendals reflexes are worth something, and whilst it has nothing to do with my position, i have mentioned it several times myself.

 

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No, you cannot. LTT was a politician and a battle general, his expertise is worlds away from Graendals. Just because they lived in the same time, and took part in the same war does not mean they have the same knowledge.

 

And in terms of this i can state you to be wrong. The guide is quite explicit about the fact that Graendal never took part in battle.

 

You don't need to fight in a war to know how to fire a gun. See what I'm saying?

 

Certainly. You compare manipulating a maltifacetous power source that permeates reality, and by its very nature influences the very fabric of the universe with exerting the muscular control of using a finger to pull a metal trigger.

 

Oh, and by the way, as to guns, you dont need to fight a war to know how to fire a gun, but you still need training to do so. Silly, silly analogy.

 

I don't know, I can see what he's saying there. I'm going to try and break this down simply for you, puppy.

 

Equal strength in the power, because of the angreals.

Greandal knows much, much more concerning everything to do with the power.

Greandal has experience hundreds of years experience using the power, compared to, two?

Greandal is one of the Forsaken not been killed, showing that she isn't an arrogant fool like the rest.

Greandal has better natural reflexes with the power.(see below)

Aviendha has better PHYSICAL reflexes and is able to respond to a VISUAL threat better than Greandal.

 

Equal strength in the power, because of the angreals.

 

That would be my point.

 

Greandal knows much, much more concerning everything to do with the power.

 

Go read the books. You insult us all with that comment.

 

Greandal has experience hundreds of years experience using the power, compared to, two?

 

Certainly. The relevance?

 

Greandal is one of the Forsaken not been killed, showing that she isn't an arrogant fool like the rest.

 

Yes, by avoiding confrontation. What is the relevance?

 

Greandal has better natural reflexes with the power.(see below)

Aviendha has better PHYSICAL reflexes and is able to respond to a VISUAL threat better than Greandal.

 

Oh my god. What a brilliant point! My argument falls apart in shock. I am humbl--oh wait, that doesn't even touch on my argument. Pity. You were going so well till then.

 

You say Avi doesn't have the knowledge, Greandal knows more, has more experience, is smart, has basically every advantage except better physical reflexes and being able to see and respond to a threat. And you believe that puts her on an equal level with Greandal?

 

Nope. Lol.

 

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I WAS saying that Aviendha will be able to hold her own

 

Ok? Where are you getting this from? Because she has some tidbits from another Forsaken who didn't go around battling others? Because she will be able to respond to a threat? Because she has good physical reflexes? She has no advantage over Greandal concerning anything with the power. NONE. Yet she can hold her own. K. Excuse me if I find your reasoning absurd.

 

You seem confused. You know what helps with that? Reading.

 

By the way does it not seem incongruos that you state that learning from one forsaken who did not go around battling other would not help in battling another forsaken that did not go around battling others?

 

And yes, i do think those 'tidbits' will help, as do i think that her ability to respond to a threat will help. I never claimed hers physical reflexes will influences things (honestly, how contemptuos do i need to be of that suggestion before it slips into you). And you are quite wrong, she has several advantages over Graendal--the products of her learning which graendal never learnt.

 

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Seriously. Responding to a post that states that i do not think that Aviendha knows anywhere near as much about the Power as Graendal with "You really think Aviendha knows as many weaves as Greandal? Even just weaponlike weaves?" makes your comment look self-serving and distracts from your point. Either you did not read before you commented, or you intentionally added the first comment in order to make my position seem more outlandish. As I said, self-serving and pathetic.

 

And the answer is yes, i do believe that Aviendha's knowledge reguarding confrontational weaves will be comprable to Graendals. Of course, she does not know reversing, as i stated, and i have no doubt that Graendal will have a few surprises up her sleeve, but then so will Aviendha. In the end, yes, i completely believe Aviendha will be able to hold her own against Graendal.

 

 

Well that was nice. I appreciate the insults.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Go re-read it, it'll help you with your deep confucion.

 

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3. I did not say that a years experience put Aviendha on par with Graendal. I said that in terms of their respective weaponlike weaves, Graendal has only reversion as far as we know. Aviendha having learned the weaves learned from Moghedian is capable of standing against Graendal in terms of knowledge of weaponary weaves. Beyond that she has Aes Sedai knowledge, and Aiel knowledge which Graendal does not.

 

Humbly excuse me, lord, if I quoted something you said, saying that they are on par in terms of knowledge of weaponlike weaves, and came to the conclusion that you believe Aviendha knows as much as Greandal. Because a couple weaves learned from Moggy puts her on par with Greandal. That definately makes me self serving and pathetic, yes. And I'm sure all that Aes Sedai training Aviendha's had will help her out a great deal. 

 

I don't forgive you. It was obvious, and your failure to percieve, pathetic. I do appreciate the acknowledgement of your failure though.

 

Well, puppy, it seems that you believe not knowing a tenth of what Greandal knows will give her an even chance against the Forsaken. K.  She doesn't know a fraction of what the Forsaken knows, yet she stands a chance....

 

You think it seems that?

 

You amuse me, my man. Well done.

 

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You say that RJ has stated that male channelers are one or two levels above female channelers. Yeah, I agree. The majority of male channelers would be. You can't say this of Rand, he is above and beyond any male channeler except for the strongest of the male Forsaken and Logain and Taim.

 

 

Actually mate, i can say this of Rand, because RJ said this of Rand. The upper male limit is one or two levels above that of the upper female limit.

 

And no, the majority of male channelers are not stronger than the upper female limit. Men are on average stronger, which means nothing more than the average male strength is slightly higher than the average female strength.

 

Where did I say that the majority of male channelers are stronger than the upper limit of female channelers? I said That I AGREE that the majority of male channelers will be a bit above female channelers. I never said the strongest females, just the general ones. Seems like you are trying to make me say more than I am... Self serving and pathetic?

 

Forgive me. This is my mistake. When you responded to my comment about the levels i assumed you were doing so from the same knowledge of RJ's comments about those levels as i was--the 'one or two levels' comment refers to the upper limits. The male upper limit is 'one or two levels' above the female, which is the 21st level.

 

It was not self-serving, i was being honest. Though it was pathetic for me to have not realised the destinction in language. I should have phrased myself better. My appologies.

 

As to this point, though, the only comment we have regaurding the average strength for males and females is that in terms of effectiveness a female channeler at 36.2 untis of strength equalled a man at 38.7 (i think).

 

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In LoC it took what, six fairly strong Aes Sedai(probably in the range of Moiraine) to shield Rand.

 

Have you read the books? Firstly, there were fifteen Aes Sedai present when Rand was shielded. Thirteen linked to shield him whilst the other two wove air to restrain him.

 

He broke out of the shield with six channelers holding it. Although I do believe three were tied off. I may be a bit off. That is what I was referring too.

 

Ah, I see. And no, he didn't. He unravelled three of the tied off weaves when the fourth re-entered it. The shield he shattered was held by those three.

 

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Secondly Moiraine, Romanda, Lelaine, Elaida and Siuan's old strengths are the highest strength in the Tower next to Cadsuane. No one else equals them. The Aes Sedai that took place in the confrontation do not equal them. If more than one was even close to their strength i'd be deeply startled. The same goes from the group that confronted Rand in Caemlyn. Even with an angreal and at somewhere around twice his normal strength he was concerned he could not stand against seven Aes Sedai.

 

Of course you would be deeply startled, you know everything about all the channelers' strengths based on your numbers system. You don't think Elaida would send fifteen of her strongest Aes Sedai. They couldn't be any less than three points away from Moiraine, if Nyneave is ten higher than Egwene, or whatever.

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing there. Sashaelle, Ronaile and Irgain are of midling strength. Sashalle stands strongest of them, and she is only slightly stronger than Samitsu.

 

And Elaida sent thirty-six Aes Sedai, not fifteen. the fifteen that took place in the capture of Rand were not chosen for their strength in the power, they were chosen for the fact that the oath rod had not yet taken effect. So yes, i would indeed be deeply startled is more than one or two had any true strength--Elaida had no need of strength in a circle of thirteen, she had a need for youth.

 

Oh, Katerine is strong, certainly, and likely Galina and maybe one or two others. But none of them compare with Moiraine or that ilk.

 

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And additionally, we do not know that Moghedian is a 'very weak Forsaken'. We know that she is weaker than Lanfear, and that she is a timid person when it comes to direct battle. Nothing more.

 

 

Nah, she just stalks the shadows and waits for the opportune moment to attack, when her enemy is weak, just for fun. That doesn't imply that she isn't on the weaker side. Nope, not at all.

 

You are quite correct. It doesn't.

 

Pehaps you are right about the first part. Also, you seem to think that you know for sure how long it takes a woman to reach her full strength? Moiraine is fifteen or twenty years older than Nyneave, roughly, and she has certainly reached her full potential. Acually, I belieave that when she was raised to Aes Sedai she was stronger than most other Aes Sedai. She couldn't have been much more than twenty four. My memory is a bit hazy on that, so don't go crucifying me if I'm a bit off.

 

Fair enough. Moiraine is twenty-two, though, and no, she is not stronger than most other Aes Sedai. Comparatively she stood quite low--indeed of the multitude of Aes Sedai she encounters only Cabriana stands beneath her, and she is the dredges.

 

And yes, i am certain about the length of time it normally takes to reach full strength for women. Moiraine describes it as a smooth arc, and its between ten and twenty years (Moiraine implies that she herself fell in around 9 years, when she states that it would be a couple of years, yet Siuan seems to regaurd this with disbelief, stating that it would be a further ten years till she was strong enough to tell Cetalia to shove it).

 

As for your "loosely" based numbers system that proves everything, there's not enough clarified for me to see much truth to it. Perhaps you can give me a link where RJ has come up with his own? Also, why does Rand have to be limited to being a couple points over Alivia. It cannot be because she is at the upper limit of being a female channeler, even if there is a points where one cannot get any stronger. I say this because Rand is twenty-two, I believe, and has a few years left to develop his full potential(in the perfect world), but according to the system he can only be a few points higher than Alivia because she is the strongest female? Perhaps on average the men are a coupe points above, but in the upper limits of channeling strength, where it is out of the ordinary, that doesn't apply?

 

Umm. Loosely based. Proves everything. Ever heard of the word oxymoron?

 

As for a link where RJ comes up with his own--its kind of common knowledge, but sure--go to the wotmania FAQ 'out of the creators mouth' section. He mentions it numerous times.

 

And yes, there are suggestions that Alivia is at the upper limit for women, but thats a discussion that is covered in many other threads.

 

Finally, Rand was forced, and the male attainment of strength is not the smooth arc that the female version is, and isn't predicatable.

 

Also, not sure why I was called a puppy? No better insults? C'mon.

 

I like watching people squirm as they try to reply with use of the word 'puppy'. I like puppies. They're fun.

 

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Which is, I believe, why Luckers said that a OP battle would be limited in nature.  If Avhienda knows the top 5 deadliest weaves ever known, and Graendal knows the top 100 deadliest weaves ever known, and they both only use the top five, Graendal's expansive knowledge doesn't really come into play does it?

 

She doesn't know the top five deadliest weaves, other than balefire.

 

Which weaves would they be?

 

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Nope, but a soldier probably has better aim than a psychologist.

 

Anyone can learn enough basic knowledge to weild a gun and give a decent level of protection. You don't have to be a bloody general or the greatest channeler of all time to learn the nasty weaves, etc.

 

That would sort of be the point. Basic knowledge.

 

And what was the knowledge the women drew from Moghedian?

 

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It implies something about her courage not her power.  Aginor/Osingar/Dashiva was next in power after Ishmael, and that didn't keep him from skulking around during the cleansing, and it didn't keep him from getting killed by someone with less training and less knowledge at Shadar Logoth,... or the first time at TEotW for that matter.

 

I believe Lanfear was right under Ishamael. Anyway, would someone who is extremely powerful lack enough courage to fight someone face to face, knowing they would win? yeah she's a chicken, but its most likely due to her lack of strength.

 

Did cloglord not just raise Aginor, who is a bare step below Rand, and does not fight openly?

 

No, mate. Her actions show only that she is chicken, they prove nothing about her strength.

 

 

[Darkness Incarnated]

Luckers, you still don't explain how Aviendha's experience as a Maiden is going to help her recognize Graendal as a threat, a channeling threat. Is Graendal stupid enough to go around potential enemies in her streith gown? I don't think so. Graendal could sit there, in her guise as that old woman for instance, smiling, and strike out at Aviendha, without doing any threatening gesture. Not all weaves require gestures. How is Aviendha going to see this coming? The only way I think her experience as a Maiden is going to benefit her is in terms of combativity and tenacity.

 

 

Furthermore, you are still operating under the assumption that Graendal knows little in terms of fighting with the Power. I addressed this earlier, but you ignored it. Anyway, the short version is that Graendal would not avoid confrontations indefinitely. Sooner or later she had to educate herself in those weaves, if she wanted to stay alive. Competition from her fellow Chosen alone would have been enough to motivate her to stay at the top of her game. There was much more stiffer competition at that time--encouraged by the Dark One by the way--so it stands to reason that she would strive to know enough to keep herself alive. What you don't know can kill you. I think her being a psychologist worked against her as much as it benefited her. People knew her fortes, so they would try to find counters to that in other areas, since they could not all be psychologists, prompting her to enquire more about those other areas. I would throw in Nae'blis as a motivation as well, except I don't remember whether that was an issue at that time.

 

 

On another note, name calling--'puppy' and such--comes off as condescending, irrespective of whoever is doing it. Not trying to usurp the mod's place, but I just thought we could stay civil.

;D

[cloglord]

I've said it a few times, now, and I think its time to repeat it.

 

There is no good answer to the, "who would win Avhienda or Graendal?" question.

 

It is oversimplistic to assume that any confrontation between the two would be strenght based, or ability based, or even knowledge based.  Any enounter would not be a debate to the death on the theoretical uses and problems of balefire.  It would not be an arm wrestling match, it wouldn't be a deadly game of spoons.  We don't even know what setting such an encounter would take place in, or the circumstances that would precipitate them.

 

Even were I to attempt a guess at these variables, it would be inherently speculative.  My best quess would have Graendal using Compulsion, as this seems to be her greatest strength, and her weapon of choice against Cyndane and Moghedian.  My best guess is that Avhienda would end up pulling a knife, as this is still where Avhi is most comfortable.  If I had to speculate as to a setting for such an encounter, I think it would take place in TAR, as I assume that Avhi has the dreamring Terangreal for a reason, Graendal would be less likely to be disquised there, and because her wiseone training, might help to put her on a more even footing.

 

That would be my prediction, if I had to make one, but I won't because, as I said, it would be pointless speculation.  :)

[wvlr]

Is Graendal stupid enough to go around potential enemies in her streith gown? I don't think so.

 

Thats funny!  Didn't Grendal do just that at the Cleansing?

 

As far as Avi goes.  Wasn't she making fireballs within weeks of starting her training?

 

I think that it is quite clear that the WOs use the Power to fight the Shadow.  If they did not then they (both sides) would have had to learn those skills especially for Dumi Wells.  They all seemed quite skilled to me.

 

Then there are the extra tricks the the WOs know that both AS and Forsaken do not know like unwinding weaves. 

 

I don't think that Grendal will be completely unskilled either.  Fighting may not be her main area but she has to have picked up some skill during the WoP.  She at least kept herself from getting killed at the Cleansing.  I think that this does have the POTENTIAL for an interesting fight.

 

[Luckers]

Luckers, you still don't explain how Aviendha's experience as a Maiden is going to help her recognize Graendal as a threat, a channeling threat. Is Graendal stupid enough to go around potential enemies in her streith gown? I don't think so. Graendal could sit there, in her guise as that old woman for instance, smiling, and strike out at Aviendha, without doing any threatening gesture. Not all weaves require gestures. How is Aviendha going to see this coming? The only way I think her experience as a Maiden is going to benefit her is in terms of combativity and tenacity.

 

The streith seemingly functions through the collar, which Graendal would likely wear even under a mask of mirrors--but that was not my suggestion, i merely pointed out that it was a possibility.

 

The reality i suggest is that Aviendha is well trained at recognising oddities in peoples behaviour. Small gestures that reveal their danger--as i raised, note her realisation about the Master of Blade. this is the function of her training that i think will serve Aviendha, and never did i state that it would be recognition of a 'channeling threat'.

 

Furthermore, you are still operating under the assumption that Graendal knows little in terms of fighting with the Power. I addressed this earlier, but you ignored it. Anyway, the short version is that Graendal would not avoid confrontations indefinitely. Sooner or later she had to educate herself in those weaves, if she wanted to stay alive. Competition from her fellow Chosen alone would have been enough to motivate her to stay at the top of her game. There was much more stiffer competition at that time--encouraged by the Dark One by the way--so it stands to reason that she would strive to know enough to keep herself alive. What you don't know can kill you. I think her being a psychologist worked against her as much as it benefited her. People knew her fortes, so they would try to find counters to that in other areas, since they could not all be psychologists, prompting her to enquire more about those other areas. I would throw in Nae'blis as a motivation as well, except I don't remember whether that was an issue at that time.

 

I'm opperating under no assumption. I am stating that as of this moment the only information we have states that Graendal had no experience with fighting. Beyond which, every one of those things you said apply to Moghedian, and whilst Moghedian did not give up everything she knew, potential aggressive weaves were something that the girls focused on.

 

I never stated that Aviendha knew more, or even as much as Graendal. I stated that Graendal knew enough to hold her own, and that combined with her warrior spirit would influence a battle with Graendal in her favour. Even then i only stated that i thought she would drive Graendal out, not kill her.

 

Finally, Graendal is amongst the original Chosen. Her methods of dealing with her opponents are well stated--they never know she is a threat till they die. It's not really relevant to this type of confrontation.

 

 

[dmanmiller34]

Ya know one encounter that I'd really like to see is Suian vs Eliadia. I would liove to see the look on elidia's face when suian embraces the source and shileds her then promptly punches her in the face.

[lou]

noone wants to see elaida beat the crap out of alvarin? i am deeply disappointed in you all......lol

[DemandredFO]

a thing I'll put in Greadal favor as compared to the other Chosen, she's to be one of the few, perhaps the only, Chosen not to underestimate 3rd age channellers.