Who is Mazrim Taim

[Aldazar]

hey i was just skippin thru book six again and i noticed suthin.

 

now i know Taim isnt demandred because RJ said he wasn't or some such but he says some thing the suggests he's from AoL in chapter 11 (Lessons and Teachers) this convo happens this is where Taim suggests the use of gateways for finding new students

 

“How would you do it?â€

 

“Using gateways,†Taim had picked that up right away; he was very quick with everything Rand showed him. “I can visit two or even three villages a day. Villages will be easier in the beginning than even small towns. I’ll leave Flinn to watch the lessons—he’s the furthest along, despite what you saw—and take Grady or Hopwil or Morr. You’ll have to supply some decent horses. The nag that pulls our cart won’t do.â€

 

“What do you intend, though? Just ride in and announce that you’re looking for men who want to channel? You’ll be lucky if the villagers don’t try to hang you.â€

 

“I can be a little more circumspect than that,†Taim said dryly. “I will say I’m recruiting men to follow the Dragon Reborn.†A little more circumspect? Not much. “That should frighten the people just enough to keep them from my throat long enough to gather in whoever is willing. And it culls out anybody who isn’t ready to support you. I don’t suppose you mean to train up men who’ll turn on you the first chance they find.†He raised a questioning eyebrow, but did not wait for the unnecessary answer. “Once I have them safely away from the village, I can bring them here through a gateway. Some might panic, but they should not be too hard to handle. Once they’ve agreed to follow a man who can channel, they can hardly balk at letting me test them. Those who fail, I’ll send on to Caemlyn. It’s time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others. Bashere could change his mind; he will, if Queen Tenobia tells him to. And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do.â€

 

at the end of that Taim calls the aiel ***so-called Aiel***

 

this makes me think he hasto be from AoL because thats how all the forsaken speak of the nowadays Aiel

[alCal]

You might really have picked something up here.. But who would he be? The only ones that has lived from the AoL are those captured during the sealing of the Bore, the forsaken. How would he have survived 3000 years? Unless, of course, he is a Forsaken, which seems less likely since there are no male ones left to pose as him...

[goldeneys]

hmmm this could be interesting

I'm not really sure what I think, maybe it's just a coincidence, but from what we've seen in his books, coincidences don't happen very often.

[gaishain]

Very interesting theory. I have always thought that Mazrim was someone else. Hmm. This will be fun to watch unfold in MoL.

[Jellybelly]

You do not have to be from the Age of Legends to understand the Old Tongue.

[Jedimuppet]

You do not have to be from the Age of Legends to understand the Old Tongue.

 

I've always thought that "so-called" comment to be odd, myself.

 

I don't think merely understanding the Old Tongue explains his apparent old-school perception of Aiel. I also don't happen to think he's from the AoL, but that he may have had a lot of contact with someone from the AoL (like a Forsaken teacher, perhaps).

 

J

[Barnabas]

i noticed that so-called comment myself as well, dunno if it leads to anything though, although at one point it was the key piece for me that had me thinking taim was demandred. even if it was just an understanding of the old tongue, doesnt aiel mean dedicated? for all taim knows it would mean dedicated to fighting, if u get what i mean. Maybe hes just spent too much time with his tutor, who is a forsaken from the AoL?

[Duggadugga]

I know this is going to sound ... well ... insane, but here me out.

 

Remember the scene when Taim gave Rand a seal the Great Lord's prison? He gave a story about a farmer who he just happen to meet, who's family had been guarding it since Hawkwings reign.

 

Doesn't that sound like Padan Fain's story when he presented the Horn to the Seanchen.

 

What if Fain ran into Taim somewhere when Taim was fleeing the sisters who captured him? We have no doubts that Taim is a Friend of the Dark, but we know that Fain has someway to manipulate those ties to the Great Lord. We know that Fain has Mordeth's memories. Mordeth would know about the Daishan Aiel and a time when the "so called Aiel" followed the Way of the Leaf.

 

We see in the story that everytime we see Taim, his hatred for the Dragon deepens.

 

The only problem is that in Lord of Chaos. Fain remembers "touching" the Children of the Light, and "touching" the White Tower. If you look at the fall of Pedron Naill and the empending fall of Elaida. They both think that only they can save the world from the Great Lord and from the Dragon; both cases are from the effects of Fain.

 

But Taim is a Friend of a Dark...

 

Mr. Jordan has certainly confused me...

[Jellybelly]

There are more than just one problem with that little survey, I am afraid.

 

Mordeth would not know of the time when the Aiel were sworn to peace and followed the Way of the Leaf. The fall of Aridhol happened during the Trolloc Wars, some thousand years plus after the Breaking of the World. At this point, the turned-warrior Aiel were already firmly planted in the Waste.

[Kadere]

There's a thread somewhere on here where a BUNCH of people argue that Taim is NOT a friend of the dark. I'm with you, I think he pretty much has to be, but there are a lot of people who aren't sold on it.

[crash]

Mazrim Taim

 

General

Timeline

Relationships

Strengths and Talents

Miscellaneous

Quotes

 

 

 

General

 

Mazrim Taim is a Saldaean false dragon who joined Rand and became second in command to Asha'man. He was one of the false dragons who could actually channel.

 

He has black hair and is slightly above average height. He has dark face, tilted eyes, high cheekbones and hooked nose of a Saldaean. When Rand meets him the first time, he is however, dressed in Andoran style. He looks to be about thirty-five, perhaps a little older (Loc, Ch 2). He is a physically powerful man, who has something of a Warder's grace in his movements (WH, Prologue).

 

 

 

Timeline

 

- Mazrim Taim set himself up as a false Dragon in Saldaea (TGH, Ch 4). He hadn't had yet time to attract many followers. Aes Sedai had been sent to deal with him.

 

- Aes Sedai captured him at Irinjavar, Saldaea. He was captured in same circumstances as another false Dragon. At the moment Rand announced himself as Dragon, his horse reared up and threw him He was knocked unconscious, his followers who thought him dead, fled, and he was taken (TDR, Ch 12).

 

- He escaped from his Aes Sedai captors at the village of Denhuir, east of Black Hills, at night. Two Aes Sedai got killed in the process (TSR, Ch 17).

 

- He is lead in by Lord Davram Bashere's men, to meet Dragon Reborn and to accept his amnesty that Rand has granted to all men able to channel. Taim taunts Bashere about events in Saldaea. Rand tells him that the vision in the sky was not the Dark One, but Ishamael. Taim submits to the Dragon Reborn and tells Rand, that he can teach a man to channel and to test a man's ability to channel. He presents one of seals to the Dark One's prison to Rand (LoC, Ch 2).

 

- Rand introduces Taim to his students. Taim shows him how he tests a man's ability and begins his work as teacher (LoC, Ch 3).

 

- Rand arrives to the farm where Taim teaches his students to make stones explode. He tells Rand about his teaching methods (LoC, Ch 11).

 

- He travels with Rand to the farm. He realizes that Rand doesn't know how to test a man's ability to channel. Taim tests Damer Flinn. A tiny flame appears. This is first time when Taim channels. Taim asks to train men as weapons, and Rand agrees. Rand tells Taim to seize saidin. He can hold almost as much saidin as Rand (LoC, Ch 13).

 

- Taim teaches his recruits how to blow up rocks and shield themselves. He asks Rand permission to Travel to villages to recruit new men, and Rand agrees (LoC, Ch 11).

 

- He travels to Royal Palace to bring news of Jahar Narishma, a young man who has the spark. He arrives just in time to kill a Gray man who is attacking Rand (LoC, Ch 28 ).

 

- Rand comes to the Black Tower to meet him. He seems angered when Rand gives him his pins of rank. He tells Rand that there are many Aes Sedai in Caemlyn and several parties of Aes Sedai of Red Ajah in the countryside near the Black Tower. Red Ajah Aes Sedai are trying to intercept men coming to the Black Tower. Rand warns him again to stay away from Caemlyn and says that he will hold him personally responsible if any harm happens to any of the Aes Sedai (LoC, Ch 42)..

 

- Rand sends a note to him to inform him that there are now thirteen Aes Sedai in Caemlyn (LoC, Ch 49).

 

- Taim comes with Asha'man to rescue Rand from hands of Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. He leads Asha'man to fight Shaido using One Power. He is with Rand when the Aes Sedai kneel to him (LoC, Ch 55).

 

- After Dumai's Wells, Taim remains with Rand. He ordered Gedwyn, who is one of the few full Asha'man, to look for something that wasn't found. According to Perrin, he smells of fury when Rand stops his argument with Wise Ones on what to do with Aes Sedai, though he doesn't otherwise show emotion. Against his suggestion, Rand decides that Wise Ones will take care of Aes Sedai prisoners. Rand orders Taim to take Asha'man to Black Tower, and Taim agrees to do that personally. He asks Rand to take Asha'man with him to be his honor guard, and smells angry, when Rand chooses Dashiva instead of one of more advanced Asha'man (ACoS, Ch 2).

 

- He sends a letter to Rand. There he tells that Black Tower now has 29 Asha'man, 97 Dedicated and 322 Soldiers. He also reports, that there has also been a handful of deserters but concludes that losses are acceptable. He believes that soon Black Tower will equal to the White Tower. He says also, that he picked that blackberry bush himself and that it was small and thorny, but with a surprising amount of fruit. Torval tells Rand, that Taim poisons the Asha'man who become mad because of the taint in saidin. He considers it kindness to them, as well safe to others (TPoD, Ch 14).

 

- He comes to Rand to report that Gedwyn, Kisman, Rochaid and Torval have deserted. He is surprised and angry when Rand adds Dashiva to the list (TPoD, Ch 29). Rand orders him to return to Black Tower and not to return.

 

- He responds to Elayne's summon and comes to her with two of his Asha'man. He agrees to let the Queen's Guards inspect Black Tower (WH, Prologue).

 

- He returns to the Black Tower and posts the names of the deserters. They deserters are: Gedwyn, Kisman, Rochaid, Torval, Dashiva, Flinn, Hopwil and Narishma (WH, Prologue).

 

- Taim has ordered Kisman to kill Rand (WH, Ch 22).

 

- He grants Logain's request to leave the Black Tower and go to recruiting trip (CoT, Prologue).

 

 

 

Relationships

 

There is no mention that Taim had true friends. His relationships are based on power hierarchy. He is second in command of Asha'man, which puts him only a step below Rand in eyes of most Asha'man.

 

Though Taim has accepted Rand as his leader, his behavior towards Rand has always been far from submissive. He is clearly a very dangerous man.

 

Cadsuane has helped capture both Logain and Taim (ACoS, Ch 9).

 

 

 

Strength and talents

 

Taim appears to be almost as strong in One Power as Rand. Rand once ordered Taim to hold as much One Power as he could, but when Taim held amount only a little smaller than what Rand could hold, Rand didn't sense any strain (LoC, Ch 3). Taim didn't know how to make a Gateway before Rand showed him.

 

Taim taught Flinn a type of Healing, which, according to Cadsuane, might not have been known since the Breaking (ACoS, Ch 26.)

 

 

 

Miscellaneous

 

-The Black Ajah plotted to free Mazrim Taim., Ch 5, TSR Ch 21).

 

-The Asha'man call him M'Hael which means "Leader" in the Old Tongue.

 

-He is deeply hated and feared in Saldaea (LoC Ch 2).

 

-According to Min's viewing, Taim has blood both in his past and in his future (ACoS, Ch 2.)

 

-Though he has channeled for a long time, he hasn't succumbed to madness.

 

-Rand has disliked Taim from the beginning.

 

-Unlike other Asha'man, he wears neither sword nor dragon on his collar (TPoD, Ch 29).

 

-According to Logain, Taim ordered the Asha'man to bond Aes Sedai. He believes that most Asha'man are now loyal to Taim (Cot, Ch 24).

 

 

 

Quotes

 

"I will do what I can. Just don't expect Damer to topple a city's walls tomorrow (LoC, Ch 3).

 

"You cannot tell a man he has the power to make the earth shake, then expect him to walk small." (LoC, Ch 42).

 

"What about those who are not in the countryside? Eleven of them? A few accidents could reduce them to a much safer number. If you don't want to soil your own hands, I'm willing to-" (LoC, Ch 42).

 

"The Aes Sedai problem needs to be settled, my Lord Dragon. My Asha'man know how to handle them. They could be held at Black Tower easily." (ACoS, Ch 2).

 

"As you say, my men can Travel. To anywhere I command. I doubt you could stop me buying whatever I want even ten miles from Caemlyn, but it wouldn't bother me if you could. Still, I am willing to allow visits whenever you ask. Controlled visits, with escorts at all times. The training is hard in the Black Tower. Men die almost every day. I would not want any accidents." (WH, Prologue).

[Jeppit Groccin]

That passage to me just sounds like Taim is a typical person who lived most of his life far away from the Waste. He doesn't know what the Aeil really are and never really had any contact with them. He's most likely just dealing with the fact that the Aeil follow Rand now and he needs to get used to it.

 

He probably is still having trouble accepting the fact that they ARE Aeil, he has more than likely never seen one in his life before and is going only by the stories he heard growing up.

[Deathblade]

Well, I don't know why, but nobody ever seems to point out that he's middle-aged. It seems proof to me that he serves the shadow...

[ronoc/booms]

it just seems unfair to me.

demandred is one of the few chosen we know alot about. we know he hated Lews Therin, and hated more for every honour Lews Therin gave him. we know he never smiles, but often has a kind of half smile. it is also hinted that he is one of the most powerful forsaken in the Power. i.e. Asmodean says, he did not think even semirhage or demandred could keep a gateway from closing.

 

now lets look at Taim;

it is often commented by Rand he has a half smile (i currently have 2 people searching the books for an instent where he actually smiles and still haven't found one).

he becomes angry with Rand when he is given the asha'man pins.

and he is almost as powerful as rand in the Power!

 

everything points to Taim as being Demandred, and then RJ goes and tells us he isn't! arrrgggghhhh!!!!

ITS UNFAIR!!!!

maybe he's Sammael?

[Guest Majsju]

Well' date=' I don't know why, but nobody ever seems to point out that he's middle-aged. It seems proof to me that he serves the shadow...[/quote']

 

Taim is not middle-aged, he's in his late 20s.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well' date=' I don't know why, but nobody ever seems to point out that he's middle-aged. It seems proof to me that he serves the shadow...[/quote']

 

Taim is not middle-aged, he's in his late 20s.

 

If you are making a Darkfriend decision based on age, then you must consider Logain a Darkfriend too? The descriptions of Logain indicate that he is at least as old if not older than Taim.

[Aldazar]

logain is described as being maybe a year older then rand whereas taim is mentioned asbeing early 30's by looks which when u add the slowing affect of channeling he must b at least 50

 

BTW men start slowing at 25ish

[Kadere]

When Rand first sees Taim he believes him to be middle-aged, but RJ has stated that Rand is wrong. Taim is actually not much older than Rand.

[Red States Rule!]

Maybe he is Mazrim Taim, and nothing more?

[Kadere]

That's probably, yet very dissappointing. Actually, where things stand now, that's pretty certain, but there's more to his character then we know.

[Inara]

taim is just a big bad darkfriend

recruiting other darkfriends

i think logain's going to clean out the black tower for rand and earn that long overdue glory.

is a great bad guy, but its time to DIE

[Ilyena]

When taim mentioned the Aiel, it was probably his border-land ego talking. We tend to forget that the Aiel have had skirmishes with border-lander's in the blight, so maybe it's just Taim's reaction to being on the same side as his past enemies.

[alCal]

I've always believed Taim to be a DF, but he can't be. At least, he can't have been a DF since the beginning since no DF would give one of the seals to Rand.

However, I think that it might be a new Demandred-story. He hates Rand so much that he has turned to the Shadow later.

How does that sound to you all?

[The Drewman Reborn]

why can't Taim be Taim? It is plausible that when Dashiva came to the black tower he introduced the possibility of immortality to Taim. After that Taim became a DF. It solves all of the problems about the seal

[hapazard]

I've always believed Taim to be a DF' date=' but he can't be. At least, he can't have been a DF since the beginning since no DF would give one of the seals to Rand.

[/quote']

 

I don't know aboute that....

Even if he is a DF giving the seal to Rand might only been a way of gaining trust. I meen, maybe he or one of the forsaken (if Taim's their puppy) knows somthing aboute the seals that makes them less important than the good guys think.