Verin and her 70 year project

[Nightstrike]

Yes, I consider everyone's opinions too. We all have the love of WoT in common. No need to disagree too much, is there?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jonn ... here and everywhere else, I'm simply expressing my opinion.  If I say that I think your ideas, or anyone elses, are overly complicated, I'm not saying that to attack you, I'm saying it because thats what I think.  I'm addressing your idea, not you as a human being.

 

Do you want me to lie and say, "Oh I think thats the way it is too!"?

 

I disagree with you, and I'm saying so.  Thats all it is.  If you don't like that, well, I guess you'll just have to live with it.

 

And Jonn ... your ideas are hardly the only ones that I've claimed are overcomplicated.

[cloglord]

There is disagreement and there is condescension.  It is the same problem that I've had with you in the past, and apparently the same one that Jonn is having with you now.  I knew you RAW when this forum had not pumped your ego to the point that you were willfully ignorant of how your comments were viewed. 

 

Granted you have read the series many times, and granted your are quite often completely correct on information cited from the books, in fact you are very efficient at regurgitating correct citations, and often are the first to respond with the answers to easily answered questions.  This might be because you are exceptionally good at remembering details, or it might just be becaue you apparently spend vast amounts of time here on these forums, and happen to get to the questions more quickly than others.  In either case, your opinions have been afforded a great deal of well deserved respect.  This does not excuse the fact that you often fail to see the effect that your highly regarded opinion has on squashing a perfectly reasonable debate. 

 

Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as Jonn pointed out, you use it to disagree in a way that certainly puts a damper on the conversation.  I took the time to read this entire thread before posting at this late juncture, and I seem to recall that you made your point on Verin's lie quite clearly more than once.  Why quote yourself, unless you felt that your opinion was so important that it had to be repeated?  To what purpose do you bring up again what has clearly been read and disregarded by at least enough people to continue the conversation? 

 

I agree, most things are simple, as Jonn pointed out some things aren't.  What is the harm in discussing the possibility of complications?  If everything was simple why discuss these books at all?  Personally, I find an exhaustive discussion, that covers all possibilities, even the most implausible, to be worthwhile.  And where I don't find a conversation worthwhile, I refrain from posting.  It is not accidental that I disapear from these forums for large periods of time, it is generally when I find the discussion to be in a period of repeating itself, or when I find the topics uninteresting.  However, it would seem that you have a problem with not being heard on every topic, nearly every time.

 

Are you just seeking validation?  Yes, we heard you, Verin's lie could very well be nothing more than you suggest.  Then again, it could be something more.  Frankly, I think the fact that the topic gets raised on a recurring basis suggests that more people think there is something to the lie than believe it is as simple as you suggest.  Or to you propose to remain here on these forums forever correcting everyone's assumptions for them for as long as the topic arises?

 

What it boils down to is a simple question, when you post are you contributing something positive and worthwhile to the discussion, or are you using the weight of your reputation to stop a discussion that you have already weighed in on?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I knew you RAW when this forum had not pumped your ego to the point that you were willfully ignorant of how your comments were viewed.

 

Its nice to know you come to the conversation with an unbiased point of view.

 

I took the time to read this entire thread before posting at this late juncture, and I seem to recall that you made your point on Verin's lie quite clearly more than once.  Why quote yourself, unless you felt that your opinion was so important that it had to be repeated?

 

Because people continue to come up with different arguments that have the same refutation.

 

And where I don't find a conversation worthwhile, I refrain from posting.

 

That's nice ... and not always true ... but its a personal choice.  And I never told anyone to "end the conversation".  I stated my opinion.

 

Then again, it could be something more.

 

I think we had a discussion on probability theory once before ... I won't bother quoting myself again, since it bothers you so much.

 

What it boils down to is a simple question, when you post are you contributing something positive and worthwhile to the discussion, or are you using the weight of your reputation to stop a discussion that you have already weighed in on?

 

I never leverage my "reputation" as the basis for my argument (except as a joke, and then I make it very clear that it is a joke).  I am very careful to always cite the reasons for my various contentions, and where I found those reasons.  I am also very careful to differentiate between things that are verified as coming from the author, things that may have come from the author, and things that are just my opinion.

 

So, to answer your question, no, I am not "using the weight of [my] reputation to stop a discussion that you have already weighed in on?"  And let me state for the record, anyone who would stop a conversation based solely on my "reputation" is an idiot.  I am not, and have never claimed to be, infallible.

 

Now ... perhaps you'd like to poke some holes in the substance of what I said?  Or would you like to continue to condescendingly accuse me of being condescending.  ;D

[trakand_01]

Ye gads not another argument. Aren't we all here to discuss our own theories and hear other people's thoughts?

 

We're all entitled to our own opinions on absolutely everything. In a world where Oral-B have just released a toothbrush which tells you when to switch from one side of your mouth to the other, I'm quite protective of my own opinions too, but we have to be careful not to assume that everyone agrees with us.

 

Perhaps we can all agree that if we read something we dont agree with, we just ignore it, rather than taking up half a page of a thread to argue about it?

[cloglord]

Quote

I knew you RAW when this forum had not pumped your ego to the point that you were willfully ignorant of how your comments were viewed.

 

Its nice to know you come to the conversation with an unbiased point of view.

 

I don't claim to be unbiased, I am.  I would much prefer to like you as much as I used to.

 

I never leverage my "reputation" as the basis for my argument (except as a joke, and then I make it very clear that it is a joke).  I am very careful to always cite the reasons for my various contentions, and where I found those reasons.  I am also very careful to differentiate between things that are verified as coming from the author, things that may have come from the author, and things that are just my opinion.

 

Whatever your intentions, you do it regardless.  Call it the law of unintended consequences, but when you weigh in, you sway opinions, and when you weigh in repeatedly, people risk feeling stupid to argue with you.  It has a stifling effect on the debate.  And to refuse to recognize that fact is either ignorant or condescending.  It is not bad for you to have an opinion, it is not bad for it to be held in wide regard.  What I take issue with is that you don't seem to recognize the implications of that regard to the wider debate.  The other thing is your tendency to disagree for the sake of simplicity. Simplicity is great, but it does not engender new or interesting discussion.  Admittedly the simplest answer is most often correct, but as it is said variety is the spice of life and I like my life spicy ;)

 

Ye gads not another argument. Aren't we all here to discuss our own theories and hear other people's thoughts?

 

I am sorry Trakand as much as I like arguing with RAW it should not be done at the expense of another debate.  Unfortunately, a thread about what irritates me about XY or Z is also inapropriate.  I felt that the place to adress this issue is where it was brought up.  Perhaps as a sop to my consience, I'll try to re-energize this conversation.

 

I have scoured the books looking for another reference to something that happened 70 years ago, and I have found only one, in the whole series.  Zarya Alkaese ran away from the tower 70 years ago.  This might not be important, but it strikes me as odd.  First of all, we know that Garenia as she has been known, is not an insignifigant channeler.  In fact she is one of the stongest channelers in the past 70 years.  As strong as Lelaine or Romanda.  We also know that the Aes Sedai have been using the Kin to collect runaways, and that they do not allow girls with large potentials to escape them.  So how is it that Zarya manages to escape detection hiding in plain sight, when clearly she would be looked for, and looked for in the very place she hid.  It strikes me as odd, and an odd occurence happening at the same time as verin's mysterious mistake makes me very curious.

 

 

 

[trakand_01]

Maybe she didnt run away, maybe she was sent. If she was, she must be gutted she ran into ... whats-her-face, the leader of the Kin.

 

How would that tie in to Verin though? You think maybe she was using the three ta'veren to find them again? She tied herself to the wrong one if she was, fat lot of good following Perrin did her!

 

When she was thinking about the project, it was Rand she was trying to save, yes?

[cloglord]

I don't know what to what purpose Garenia ended up in Ebou Dar, I suspect if it was Verin's doing it would have been to coverup her last mistake 70 years ago, and not as a specific part of her 70 year plan.

 

We do know that Verin has had a specific interest in novices in the past.  She seemed awfully interested in both Siuan and Moraine in NS, and substantially helped Egwene in TGH and TDR.  She also hasa past of grilling new wilder novices on their "tricks."  Maybe she "convinced" Garenia to run, to help cover her mistake.  Maybe Garenia is the clue to uncovering Verin's 70 year mission.

[Tyrell]

Perhaps Garenia gave her the key to her compulsion weave? Verin then compelled her to run and aided her escape/evasion to cover up her compulsion investigations - maybe Garenia was unwilling to "forget" the weaves like many who have it beaten out of her and was possibly a seen threat to Verin.

 

All totally idle speculation based on the suggestion of a connection, no more.

 

What had occured to me though, concerning forbidden weaves and such, is how did Moiraine learn to weave Balefire? Surely there isn't a book in the tower library entitled "Basic Balefire : A Beginner's Guide"

[Gentled Ben]

It's generally assumed that she learned it from Vandene and Adeleas when she stayed with them in Arafel. I went so far in a different thread as to suggest that Balefire is actually one of the Green Ajah's "secret" weaves, and I still believe it is.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Whatever your intentions, you do it regardless.  Call it the law of unintended consequences, but when you weigh in, you sway opinions, and when you weigh in repeatedly, people risk feeling stupid to argue with you.  It has a stifling effect on the debate.

 

So, basically, what you're saying is that because I have been right often enough to gain a "reputation", that some people are inclined to listen to what I say, and therefore I have a responsibility to refrain from expressing my opinion forcefully, because then people will believe me and it will "stifle" the conversation.

 

...

 

...

 

Well ... ok then.  You guys have fun conversating.

[CUBAREY]

QUOTE:

 

 

Admittedly the simplest answer is most often correct, but as it is said variety is the spice of life and I like my life spicy

 

Okay, so Bloghead wants to put out complicated theories an objects to RAW pointing out that not only simpler theories suffice but they make more sense? Kind of like an insane person having delusions and objecting to being cured and shown the world as it actually is.  I think I prefer being "dictated" by benevolent wise man the deluded by a conspiracy enthusiast. But, hey that's me.

 

 

 

 

[cloglord]

So, basically, what you're saying is that because I have been right often enough to gain a "reputation", that some people are inclined to listen to what I say, and therefore I have a responsibility to refrain from expressing my opinion forcefully, because then people will believe me and it will "stifle" the conversation.

 

No you have a responsibility to not be a punk.

 

Okay, so Bloghead wants to put out complicated theories an objects to RAW pointing out that not only simpler theories suffice but they make more sense? Kind of like an insane person having delusions and objecting to being cured and shown the world as it actually is.  I think I prefer being "dictated" by benevolent wise man the deluded by a conspiracy enthusiast. But, hey that's me.

 

Bloghead?  ::)  Good one, my 3 year old seldom comes up with names that good.

 

I have no problem with simplicity.  I like simplicity.  Simplicity has kinda run its course here though, don't you think?  Several thousand people have read and re-read the same series hundreds of times, and for some reason feel the need to come here and discuss those same old simple theories over and over again?  In case you haven't figured it out, there is very little that hasn't been discussed here at one point or another.  That kinda makes it hard to discuss something new without getting a little further out on that limb.  I'm not scared to get out there on that limb, because ultimately its fiction, no harm no foul.  I'll discuss any idea that I think is interesting, and i'll not resort to shooting down anything that isn't simple enough just because I have to be right.

 

I'm not a conspiracy enthusiast, I enjoy discussions that are new and novel, and believe that the simple argument is best served by examining all the possibilities.  If I were satisfied with just running every idea past Luckers and RAW, I wouldn't have a problem.  I'd just PM them some looney ideas, and ask them to shoot them down.  However, I'd rather let the dragonmount brainpool, of which both individuals are important parts, do the examining.  So if you are done trying to marginalize me, feel free to comment on why you think these ideas are wrong.

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

Personally, all of the theories expressed here are possible. Don't say stuff like what RAW said earlier, I mean, you can't really say "I don't think that will happen because it's too complicated..."

 

If you don't think it will happen, cite sources from the book that clue you into thinking that it won't. Or maybe you should just find out when you read the next book.

 

I understand why it might be too complicated (personally I do think Jonn's theory is a little overcomplicated) but it wouldn't be the first time that a story has had a ridiculously over thought, and overcomplicated ending/answer.

 

Now my original theory was that Verin is simply a women who is misinterpreting things, that's why she's running around like crazy.

 

But you guys have swayed me into thinking at least that she knows what she is doing. Whether it's because Corian Neadal wrote out what was going to happen, or Gitara told Verin what was going to happen. Or even if Verin saw the future and gathered all of her information, I think anything is possible for AMoL...

[lou]

i, for one, have often disagreed with robert and he has disagreed with me, i dont feel in any way threatened by this. i enjoy cloglord's overcomplicated theories,it is not neccessary to call names to get your point across. rudeness is not to be tolerated.

 

 

I don't know what to what purpose Garenia ended up in Ebou Dar, I suspect if it was Verin's doing it would have been to coverup her last mistake 70 years ago, and not as a specific part of her 70 year plan.

 

We do know that Verin has had a specific interest in novices in the past.  She seemed awfully interested in both Siuan and Moraine in NS, and substantially helped Egwene in TGH and TDR.  She also hasa past of grilling new wilder novices on their "tricks."  Maybe she "convinced" Garenia to run, to help cover her mistake.  Maybe Garenia is the clue to uncovering Verin's 70 year mission.

 

do you think that garenia was verin's "last mistake"?

 

[Jonn]

Look here is what it is to me with Robert.

 

He often has an idea, a perfectly logical idea which can hold up according to his parameters of reason and for the most part it holds up on a simpler level of thinking.

 

I have no problem with that.

 

Here I come in with my own idea because, hey I figure I might share a different idea, not really in direct opposition to anyone, but another idea that I happened to phase through my brain because you know...synapses fire pretty quick.

 

I never do this thinking, oh those other ideas are wrong.

 

I have an idea because it's an idea. Those other points are all very well, but what if...?

 

Robert: "Nope, that's illogical. It's much simpler than that. I said before that all other ideas that are more complicated than mine are wrong two pages ago. Weren't you listening?"

 

Uh yeah...Cloglord said it right. People might want to look at things in another light. They aren't necessarily saying that you are wrong. They're just putting out another thought because hey...maybe your idea has run its course. It's simple enough. It's noted. And now people with more imaginative thoughts can go ahead and have those thoughts, having read the prerequisite material of your infallible logic.

 

Now granted, I don't always agree with cloglord, but like him, I am rather prickly with people I call ****-starters.

 

These are people who can't accept any other thoughts that vary from their own, have a deep need to correct everyone else, and basically start **** over that fact.

 

I always work under the preamble thought that hey...that may be correct, but here's another thought. I don't like to speak as if my answer is absolutely right, and it's a given that it is. It's impolite and it causes arguments.

 

It's just respect. Post with some respect. If I post something that you find disrespectful, go ahead and ask me about it privately and I'll apologize publicly in all likelihood. Most of the time, I have absolutely no intention of being disrespectful. Generally though, I'm usually only short with people whom I have judged to have been disrespectful towards me. You should probably know right away when I'm being short with you and why, so if this applies to you don't be coy. You know why I'm addressing you by name or why I'm going after your idea in that manner.

 

Now, as for the actual discussion. I never thought of Garenia's running away and connected that to Verin. It's an interesting thought.

 

What are other things that are distinct about Garenia? What are her strengths in the Power? Details about her character are a little elusive for me because I haven't gone back and read any book cover to cover besides Knife of Dreams over the past year or so.

 

In support of my thoughts about messages in time. Consider the characters who gain knowledge from an unusual source.

 

Rand- Lews Therin's memories, The columns in Rhuidean.

 

Moiraine- Rings of Rhuidean, Green Man etc.

 

Egwene- tel aran rhiod, Moghedien (A Forsaken who has been transported from a different time by unnatural means)

 

Birgitte- Her past lives. Literally, memories out of time.

 

Now consider Mat in particular. He received the memories of several men who passed through the Doorway to the Eelfinn realm. In Knife of Dreams, he's talking to one of his Captains..Talmanes or someone, I forget...anyhow, he quotes military strategy to Mat about using arrows at every possible moment. He looks meaningfully at Mat for a moment and says, "you know right...from your book, it's in your book." Mat is dumbfounded, because for a second he thinks that he's been found out, but then he realizes that he mentioned the book  by Madoc Coumadrin to his officers before. Still this is an instance where someone quotes something that he remembers saying over a thousand years prior.

 

Now that whole sequence when you think about it is rather convoluted, but it reads as easily  as anything in the series because we are well versed with the possibilities of certain mystical elements in the books.

 

So, Verin, being mysterious as she is, seems to know things, or guess at things, show up in the right places at the right time. She says strange things, does stranger things.

 

Mustn't we look at every possibility for an explanation seeing as we haven't been informed of the details?

 

Time warping, messages gathered from different strands of time is well documented. So let's explore that shall we?

 

My idea has to do with Verin's comments being inconsistent with what Moiraine said in The Great Hunt. Knowing what we do now at this point, we can speculate as to why that does not match up.

 

Another idea is that Verin has used her "trick" on Moiraine more than once and in one of these sessions of "information exchange", Moiraine may have let out that she needs someone that she can trust to look after the boys if she isn't there with them. It may all have played out between them as a private discussion in both of their minds but the difference for Verin is that she would have helped certain aspects of it along. The lingering confusion ans suspicious nature of Moiraine after such an encounter would lead her to have strange feelings as to whether or not she can trust Verin.

 

This is another possibility, and it is more grounded in what we have actually seen in Verin's character.

 

Still, I like the idea that Verin may have other means besides her simple tricks. She wouldn't have lasted this long on her 70 year quest if she simply relied on the same trick over an over. Eventually, it will fail and it will catch up to you.

 

So as for her mistake...whatever may it may have been a result of, you can guarantee that she will have taken great pains to eliminate the elements that lead to her mistake, or at the least limit them.

[Gentled Ben]

Jonn wrote:

Another idea is that Verin has used her "trick" on Moiraine more than once and in one of these sessions of "information exchange", Moiraine may have let out that she needs someone that she can trust to look after the boys if she isn't there with them. It may all have played out between them as a private discussion in both of their minds but the difference for Verin is that she would have helped certain aspects of it along. The lingering confusion ans suspicious nature of Moiraine after such an encounter would lead her to have strange feelings as to whether or not she can trust Verin.

 

Why would Moiraine let Verin channel at her?

[Jonn]

Personally, all of the theories expressed here are possible. Don't say stuff like what RAW said earlier, I mean, you can't really say "I don't think that will happen because it's too complicated..."

 

If you don't think it will happen, cite sources from the book that clue you into thinking that it won't. Or maybe you should just find out when you read the next book.

 

I understand why it might be too complicated (personally I do think Jonn's theory is a little overcomplicated) but it wouldn't be the first time that a story has had a ridiculously over thought, and overcomplicated ending/answer.

 

 

This is spot on for me. There are things in this series that have been way more complicated than my little ideas about time.

 

If you read my posts and the particularly nutty ones people like to call me on, you'll note that they all have something in common.

 

A time paradox.

 

What is the name of this series?

 

The Wheel of Time.

 

The heart of the series is based on the logic that time is cyclical, it's bound to repeat itself over and over...Reincarnation is a given. Patterns of destiny are a given.

 

So, naturally, whenever there is a mystery, I will start with the possibility that something to do with the Pattern can be in play. Time.

 

I will start with the most complicated thought and so then when we reevaluate the actual answer as it is revealed, at least I went to the limit of reason. It's win win for me when I read the novel. I will have prepared myself for something mind-blowing to happen because the thought will have already crossed my mind, but if something even more mind-blowing than my nutty ideas happens, heck I just have to give the author credit for going that far.

 

Still nuttier things have happened in the series and for the most part it is acceptable. Verin receiving messages from the future...How is that more nutty than Ishamael surviving for 3000+ years in a semi-state of existence, sometimes as a transparent spirit, sometimes as a man of flesh?

How is it any stranger than Rand having the consciousness of a dead man fully formed in his head?

How is it stranger than the Forsaken swapping bodies? That there is a type of fire that burns you out of existence such that it can reverse events in time...That destiny can be "woven" to individuals, that a woman can see someone's future through their "aura".

 

Here's another example. Tuon rather offhandedly mentions to Mat that she herself was following a prophecy that one of her unnamed damane told her just before she landed on the mainland. This has determined her actions from the start, before she ever even set eyes on him. She just threw that in there as an explanation within a single page. I never once thought that this sounded improbable, but it you keep holding to standards of normal logic, this would actually sound rather like bull, wouldn't it?

 

Keep your mind open. That's what fantasy tells us.

 

The motivations of a character can be very surprising and this is the prerogative of the author, and knowing James Rigney as we do, as an author, such elements should not be surprising at all.

 

Why not examine these elements and maybe play with them a bit? Come on. You know you want to. It's fun, trust me. 8)

[Jonn]

Jonn wrote:

Another idea is that Verin has used her "trick" on Moiraine more than once and in one of these sessions of "information exchange", Moiraine may have let out that she needs someone that she can trust to look after the boys if she isn't there with them. It may all have played out between them as a private discussion in both of their minds but the difference for Verin is that she would have helped certain aspects of it along. The lingering confusion ans suspicious nature of Moiraine after such an encounter would lead her to have strange feelings as to whether or not she can trust Verin.

 

Why would Moiraine let Verin channel at her?

Well...

 

Why would anyone let her channel at them?

 

She could use the weave to convince them that what had happened between them was not what it actually was, as I understand it. Part of the weave is that you generally forget that you had anything more to do with Verin than had a conversation with her, that she asked you some questions.

 

That person may feel a vague sense of something else that may have happened, but the reason that the weave even works is because these people can't really remember what happened exactly. I mean what good would it be to channel at someone and have them remember that you did? Defeats the whole purpose of trying to keep it a secret if they can't remember what you did to them, but they can remember that you DID channel at them. Well, they did something to my memory with the power. I wonder if I should confront them.

 

If you don't want to call it Compulsion, you can say that it is closely related. People usually can't remember if they been manipulated by Compulsion. There has been one example when a Compulsion was broken and Nynaeve did it in Shadow Rising. It happened because Moghedien just tried to overpower her with the weave and Nynaeve proved stronger. Graendal is said to be the master of the weave because she knows how to use subtle variations. I think that Verin is using a more subtle variation.

 

It's so subtle that even a description of it is vague. hehe

 

Here's a possible scenario: Verin pays Moiraine a visit, says she needs to talk to her in private. She weaves a ward against eavesdropping and while she does this she uses her trick before Moiraine knows what is happening. By the time it's over, Moiraine isn't sure that they even spoke for very long.

 

I guess this is how it would work. What do you think?

 

[Gentled Ben]

I think Moiraine can see the weave and tell that it isn't an eavesdropping ward. The only time we've seen Verin use it, she added it to Delving. There was no reason for Moiraine to be Delved, and if it had occurred, why did it occur offscreen? Why show all the other Sisters being Compelled, but not Moiraine?

[BrainFireBob]

Jonn, let's represent this fairly.

 

A bit of the animosity comes from the "Who Killed Asmodean" thread.

 

Where RAW is one of the most definitive about the fact that Graendal requires the fewest assumptions, as opposed to your own favorite candidate, Moiraine, who what- had to kill Asmo do to her deal with the Finns, and the Finns let her out of Finnland to do it, yes?

[Jonn]

I think Moiraine can see the weave and tell that it isn't an eavesdropping ward. The only time we've seen Verin use it, she added it to Delving. There was no reason for Moiraine to be Delved, and if it had occurred, why did it occur offscreen? Why show all the other Sisters being Compelled, but not Moiraine?

 

Then again why is one of the Brown Ajah Delving anyone? Sure, she can Heal, but generally a Yellow is more interested in basically doing a check-up on someone's health. It's a bit suspicious any way you look at it. You can suppose that her initial reasoning, that she would like her subjects to think is that she is doing so to...what? Study them? Make notes?

 

Doesn't matter what her initial reason is to channel around that person, they shouldn't be able to remember why exactly she needed to channel in the first place. She just did, there was a credible reason for her to do so and there you go.

 

It would work much the same if she had a chance to try it on Moiraine.

 

In any case it was a thought. Any solve for whatever may be behind Verin's behavior would probably be offscreen anyway, wouldn't it? I mean, if it were onscreen, we would know the answer, yes?

 

All we have are scant clues and suggestions, so from there we must examine possibilities. It is possible that offscreen Verin encountered Moiraine and took from that encounter that Moiraine needed someone trustworthy to follow the boys and look after them if she could not.

 

Now this covers a few varioations of the Verin is not lying hypothesis, just in different ways.

 

My time messenger theory requires such a meeting.

 

Robert's "simplicity is best" approach requires such an exchange.

 

The sub-compulsion trick theory needs the two meeting in such a fashion.

 

I find that my time shift ideas are focused more on melding the paradox of that lie with the general mystery of Verin's motives over the past 70-100 years.

 

Robert's ideas of simplicity are a bit piecemeal in my estimation, just kind of scatter-shot. This goes with that, and that goes with this with no real centralized theory as to what could explain Verin's mysterious nature. That's honestly what I think of his theory. He could well be correct, but it just doesn't present a cohesive overall thought about the mystery of Verin.

 

The Compulsion ideas, I think, are a compromise between the two approaches. Verin has been collecting information to guide her on her path, using whatever means she deems fit necessity. Subtly using her interview techniques on even someone as savvy as Moiraine, I don't think she would be past that.

 

 

[Jonn]

Jonn, let's represent this fairly.

 

A bit of the animosity comes from the "Who Killed Asmodean" thread.

 

Where RAW is one of the most definitive about the fact that Graendal requires the fewest assumptions, as opposed to your own favorite candidate, Moiraine, who what- had to kill Asmo do to her deal with the Finns, and the Finns let her out of Finnland to do it, yes?

 

YOU, want to talk to me about FAIR? pff

 

You ghouls over there on that thread make it impossible to share an idea without feeling attacked, and you come here to another thread basically reproducing that feeling, and you want to talk about what is fair?

 

The obscene display of gang warfare on that other thread makes it impossible for me to see anything coming from that group of pips, yourself included, as anything but self-congratulation and egotistical masturbation.

 

Up until this brief break, I've not had too much time to wander back to that worthless mess to watch the half dozen or so of you make out with each other and claim victories, so pardon me if I see this little gem of a post as nothing more than what it is. You're picking a fight.

 

Robert, knowing how I feel about his recent ascension to chief ***hole, makes it a point to speak my name in a post and immediately goes to rhetoric about how my ideas are convoluted or too complicated, how it should be simple like his genius ideas always are and how mine are never going to be.

 

You want to call that NOT picking a fight. You think I have issues? I do. But here's this. Don't start none, won't be none. I don't take kindly to snickering or snide remarks, attempts at subtly insulting me, underhanded comments. And don't claim innocence, or play naive with me. I'm well past being civil with you. I've tried that and have gotten jumped on by several people for my troubles. So, guess what, you have to earn my respect and trust before I deal with you guys in a manner that resembles anything other than disdain.

 

You guys are on my **** list, is what that translates to if it's too complicated for you.

 

Is that plain enough? Or am I misrepresenting myself?

 

To everyone else, my apologies. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but sometimes you can slap even a saint one too many times. I'm certainly no saint.

 

Now back to Verin we should go.

[cloglord]

i, for one, have often disagreed with robert and he has disagreed with me, i dont feel in any way threatened by this. i enjoy cloglord's overcomplicated theories,it is not neccessary to call names to get your point across. rudeness is not to be tolerated.

 

I pointed out that he has a responsibility not to be a punk, not that he always is one.

 

do you think that garenia was verin's "last mistake"?

 

I find it very odd that this is the ONLY thing that I have ever found that also happened 70 years ago, and I've re-read the books with an eye towards uncovering verin.

[cloglord]

YOU, want to talk to me about FAIR? pff

 

You ghouls...obscene display of gang warfare on that other thread...self-congratulation and egotistical masturbation...worthless mess...his recent ascension to chief ***hole...Don't start none, won't be none...before I deal with you guys in a manner that resembles anything other than disdain. You guys are on my **** list, is what that translates to if it's too complicated for you. Is that plain enough? Or am I misrepresenting myself?...I'm certainly no saint.

 

Jonn, I like you, I agree with you in regards to RAW and his oversimplification for the sake of being right.  But I think you just proved BFB's point for him.  Sorry bud, I'm not following you down this road.

 

Another idea is that Verin has used her "trick" on Moiraine more than once and in one of these sessions of "information exchange", Moiraine may have let out that she needs someone that she can trust to look after the boys if she isn't there with them. It may all have played out between them as a private discussion in both of their minds but the difference for Verin is that she would have helped certain aspects of it along. The lingering confusion ans suspicious nature of Moiraine after such an encounter would lead her to have strange feelings as to whether or not she can trust Verin.

 

You might find this thread illuminating,(or alternatively infuriating ;)).

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,22572.48.html