Verin and her 70 year project

[DLeeF]

I've looked through the posts and I could not find a solid theory on what Verin's long project has been.  Does anyone have a good idea?

[Darkness Incarnated]

Verin makes the most mysterious Aes Sedai look as transparent as water. Perhaps the brightest minds here can shed some light on it, I'm still in a long dark tunnel.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

I have a hunch that Gitara must have had a foretelling that dealt with Verin and current events; and that whatever her project is has to do with making the foretelling a reality.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I personally think that the source was Corianin Nedeal's notes ... the ones she considers giving to Egwene and then considers burning, but ultimately decides to keep.  One thing is seems almost sure however; Verin has instructions from an uncommon source and is following them.  Her role in current events almost has to be the culmination of her "70-year project".  Meaning that she found Corianin's notes 70 years ago.

[ironcross]

i dont trust verin. i like her, but it wouldent be the first time that there was a darkfriend that you liked. im not nesisarily saying that she is a darkfriend, but she has done some things that are verry fishy. i have no idea what her project is but i dont trust her motives and thusly i dont rely think that her project is somthing that will be plesent

[Graendals favourite]

I think Verin is like a Siuan/Moiraine who just has more info than they. Perhaps Corianin wrote down her dreams as well. Well, I think Cadsuane knew about Rand from Tamra early on, but Verin perhaps got hold of the notes, and she could expect some things to happen. If she has been at it alone all this time, the only way for her to have escaped notice is to be very careful indeed. And she has vast notes, though all in flowerish. If Verin suspected Rand to be born, Siuan and Moiraine and other happenings at News Spring would have easily caught her attention. Though Verin had gotten herself close to those to with the sweetcakes too.

 

I think Verin is good, but thinks about the Last Battle and not whatever it is the folks are doing, so she is just very careful and trusts the Pattern. Doesn't give Egwene notes which might mean she does learn in some other way or the like. But that's just what I think.

[Luckers]

Every action Verin has taken, I believe, has been about addressing needs that she feels the other Aes Sedai are too blind to percieve. One of her specific goals, i believe, was about bringing Aes Sedai into a position where they can aid Rand--not an easy task, concidering their hubris and instinct to meddle.

 

Yet concider it; she compels Aes Sedai to serve him, she conciders killing Cadsuane until she knows Cadsuane intends to serve him--in her own way, certainly, but in a way that doesn't wrest control from Rand, however unpleasent it may be for him. Additionally, note the way she manipulates Demira into leading the confrontation between the Aes Sedai and Rand in Caemlyn--as Merana states, she had to know that it would fail horribly, yet we know that her intention was not simply driving Rand and the Aes Sedai apart; her later actions completely disprove that, so why did she do it?

 

My belief is that she did it to serve as an educational premise. She wanted a controlled initial confrontation between the Aes Sedai and Rand, a confrontation that they would loose, but that would not result in any form of active danger. Effectively she was saying; wake up and look around. You are not the greatest power in the room. Have a dose of reality, and centre yourself.

 

Like Robert I believe this mission stems from Corianin Nedeal's notes. I believe they included dreams, and perhaps commentries about the degradation in the Aes Sedai order; the increased mysticism, the increasing distance between Aes Sedai self-perception and reality, the increased paranoia. I believe she read these comments and realised (if indeed that was not included within the commentry) that allowing the sisterhood near the Dragon would do more demage than good; whether it result in Rand serving as a puppet to Aes Sedai 'advisors', or in ward between the Dragon and the Aes Sedai.

 

Concider her strange actions.

 

1. The Lie. "Moiraine sent me."

 

What does this do, but bring the feeling that Moiraine was still meddling, still attempting to get her own way. It was to allow Rand the delusion that Moiraine was NOT attempting to control him that she did not travel with him at that time, and this is something that Verin knew. Therefore the only conclusion I can draw from such an unnesassary lie (why did Verin not merely say 'the Horn is of interest to the Brown' or any of a hundred other reasonable and true comments that could be taken for her purpose). The only reasonable explanation is that she saught to destroy the sense of distance that Moiraine was trying to foster. And why would she do that? She saught to drive a wedge between Rand and a woman that he had looked to, however unwillingly, as wiser than himself, as someone who could tell him what to do.

 

2. Giving Corianin's notes to Egwene.

 

Why does she concider it, and why does she decide not to. To my mind, she conciders it because just like Moiraine, Suine and several other Aes Sedai she sees the potential Amyrlin in Egwene. As a figure who more than probably come to influence policy for Aes Sedai, not to mention someone who will be in a position to be called upon to deal with Rand, having knowledge of the real nature of the Aes Sedai prior to when the indoctrinatory influence of the Tower limits free thought would be valuable. Concider "I feel knowing is better than not knowing". And why does she decide not to? Because that indoctrinatory lure is powerful, and exists at its strongest amongst those girls that seek out the Tower.

 

3. Warning Perrin about Alanna.

 

Hmm... well, seperate from Rand, but again similar purpose... or alternatively it could be completely genuine. Alanna did bond someone against their will, after all.

 

4. She knows who Luc is, but says nothing... why?

 

Frankly... no idea. Verin does have a penchant for not involving herself in things unless she sees it as nessasary. She could simply be waiting to see how it all plays out... indeed it could be the result of Verin's desire to escape the methodology of her sisters.

 

5, 6 & 7. (insighting the confrontation in Caemlyn, compelling the Tower sisters, concidering murdering Cadsuane) I have covered.

 

8. Her disapearence in KoD.

 

I believe she's off to find the horn... again acting when she feels no other is capable of it.

 

In conclusion her mission is no more complex than Moiraine's; ensuring the success of the Dragon. She is merely fighting the battles that everyone else is too socialized to see... the dangers of the Aes Sedai. Oh, no doubt there are many other things she feels she needs to address; perhaps prophesized by Corianin, but i believe she will act only when she feels others are incapable of it, and only when she is certain that the action needs to happen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree with pretty much everything Luckers just said.

 

In addition, she seems to have a nose for the Horn in particular.  She managed to be the only Aes Sedai on hand when it was blown, she was immediately familiar with the "Five Ride Forth" prophecy, she made sure she knew where it was hidden, and now, all indications are she's off to fetch it.

[Vambram]

I think that Verin went to find the Horn, also. Any thoughts as to whom has it, because somehow, I doubt its still safe and sound in the White Tower.

[Luckers]

Do you like my thought on the lie about Moiraine? That never occured to me before, but the more i think about it, the more it makes sense.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The idea that she was trying to drive a wedge between Rand and Moiraine?  Its possible ... although she leaves him in her care to take the Horn bak to the Tower ... not that she had much choice in the matter, I imagine.

 

Its interesting, but a bit precipitous, perhaps.  Moiraine turned out to be one of the very few Aes Sedai who could advise him strongly, and then still help him if he chose a different way.  She could even come to see and acknowledge his good planning.  And the list of Aes Sedai who could get the better of both Be'lal and Lanfear is very, very small.  Of course, none of that had happened yet, at the time, but if that was her purpose, I think she misjudged Moiraine.

 

I've thought at times that it was simply to cover the fact that she has her own agenda.  By saying the Moiraine sent her, Ingtar and the boys would be wondering what Moiraine wanted, why Moiraine was playing a double game (letting them go, then sending a minder), rather than wondering what Verin wanted.

[Graendals favourite]

It could be either way. Verin has developed a very Brownish way too, a little like Graendal in her own field, to make people underestimate her and tend to not think she has an agenda of her own. Though Merana noticed her doing in Caemlyn and Cadsuane noticed Merana noticing things in Cairhien.

 

Anyway, it strikes me, if the Horn is in the Tower and not secretly somewhere else, getting it from there is quite a task for Verin. She can't mask herself, can she? She can't just go to the Tower even without the siege: she has been seen in Rand's company, serving Rand. She can't risk being questioned. Also, it will be difficult for her to get into the storeroom; she'd need permission from a Sitter or Elaida...

 

Verin can Travel, so she could be anywhere. I think since she decided she had done everything she could with the knitting, she decided, now she could travel, to do something she could do by Travelling. What that is, I can't say, but she could find Mat and take him to the Tower of Ghenjei, after all it is known Moiraine's presence is needed. That's when Mat could have a chance to choose between Aes Sedai, too, perhaps, though I've always thought he was going to choose Teslyn at some point over Joline.

[Majsju]

My gutfeeling is that Verin left to go and find Mat.

 

She knows about the importance of all three, and since she knew about Perrin being mentioned in the prophecies, she most likely knows about Mat as well. Now, she has spent considerable time with Rand, and quite some time with Perrin as well. But she has not talked to Mat since she took him to the WT, and he was not exactly himself then. I think she wants to look in on him, to check if he's turning out the way he should.

[Luckers]

The idea that she was trying to drive a wedge between Rand and Moiraine?  Its possible ... although she leaves him in her care to take the Horn bak to the Tower ... not that she had much choice in the matter, I imagine.

 

Its interesting, but a bit precipitous, perhaps.  Moiraine turned out to be one of the very few Aes Sedai who could advise him strongly, and then still help him if he chose a different way.  She could even come to see and acknowledge his good planning.  And the list of Aes Sedai who could get the better of both Be'lal and Lanfear is very, very small.  Of course, none of that had happened yet, at the time, but if that was her purpose, I think she misjudged Moiraine.

 

I've thought at times that it was simply to cover the fact that she has her own agenda.  By saying the Moiraine sent her, Ingtar and the boys would be wondering what Moiraine wanted, why Moiraine was playing a double game (letting them go, then sending a minder), rather than wondering what Verin wanted.

 

My thought was not so much that she wanted to get Moiraine out of Rand's life, as to alter the flow between them. At that time she had been present whilst Suine and Moiraine coldly discussed manipulating Rand into doing what they wanted. The presumption of power, knowledging and the will to direct events had been theirs. My guess is that she saught simply to alter the balance of power.

 

Remember Verin's goals have nothing to do with dismissing the value of Aes Sedai; her actions with Cadsuane show her very capable of percieving that value. It has more to do with making sure that Aes Sedai don't overstep themselves in aiding Rand. They have value, but they are not the leader.

 

Therefore her action was not about undercutting Moiraine from assisting Rand, but in pushing Rand out of the position in which he feels that he can either hide behind Moiraine, or lean on her. If you've ever read the book Ender's Game, my analogy to Verin would be Graff... in this situation at least. Trying to ensure the leader learns enough to step forward themself, but able to use the tools availiable to him. From Verin's perspective, Moiraine would not have been so much a tool as a leader, and that must be stopped, not in the list for the limits of Aes Sedai knowledge, and their assumption of omniscience.

[Darkness Incarnated]

The one thing I get from this thread is that I must do another re-read  ;D you guys have a frightening memory.

[The Lost One]

Maybe I don't remember correctly....but

 

I thought the last mistake she made was 70 years ago?  I always assumed her project - whatever it is - might have gone on for longer than that.  Am I just remembering things wrong?

 

I really love the assessment of Verin in this post. 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

You are correct.  The 70 years specifically tied to her last significant mistake.  I tend to see that mistake as something she did while going about her larger task.

 

I'm not really surprised that Verin would have chosen not to turn Corianin's notes over to Egwene.  For one thing, it forced Egwene to look at Dreaming without any preconcieved notions.  And that helped her among the Aiel, who appeared to regard Corianin's ability with a good degree of scorn.  I also think there was something about about Corianin herself in the notes that Verin didn't want Egwene to learn.  Nothing specific I can put my finger on other than that Corrianin appeared to go out of her way to hide the uses of Ter'angreal connected to Tel'aran'rhiod.  Much of what the Black Ajah took was "use unknown, last studied by Corianin Nedeal."  The Black Ajah certainly knew their uses, and the connection to Tel'aran'rhiod.  I find it hard to believe that Corianin didn't.  I used to think it likely that Corianin was Black Ajah, but she may just have been feeling possesive of Tel'aran'rhiod.  We've seen others try and claim it as their private domain.

[Cybertrolloc]

My gut feeling is that Verin left to go and find Mat.

I agree. Verin turns up when one of the three taveran are around, she hasn't gone very long since being introduced in tGH without being near one of them.

 

I don't think there's much solid that can be divined about Verin's overall goals (except for being general team good). Her PoV segments tend to add more mystery as opposed to revealing more about something we already know after all ;)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Her PoV's tell me she is definitely on the right side.  Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine, maybe better.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Therefore her action was not about undercutting Moiraine from assisting Rand, but in pushing Rand out of the position in which he feels that he can either hide behind Moiraine, or lean on her. If you've ever read the book Ender's Game, my analogy to Verin would be Graff... in this situation at least. Trying to ensure the leader learns enough to step forward themself, but able to use the tools availiable to him. From Verin's perspective, Moiraine would not have been so much a tool as a leader, and that must be stopped, not in the list for the limits of Aes Sedai knowledge, and their assumption of omniscience.

 

OK, I think I understand your point better now.  I'm not sure I agree ... but then I'm not sure I disagree either.  If Verin is deliberately using those tactics to isolate Rand in an effort to force him to lead ... well, I'm actually not sure thats a good idea either.  The world of the Wheel is far more complex than what Ender had to deal with at Battle School ... and leadership has always been more complicated than simple command.

 

I'll may have to do a Verin-specific re-read from start to finish ...

[lou]

when fain retrieved his dagger, wasnt the horn also in the guarded room?

[ironcross]

if it had been he would have grabbed it on his way out, from what i remember he desided that he would have to come back for it, as he could sence it but it was somwere he couldent get to at the time.

 

maby verin killed asmoden

[Luckers]

Maybe I don't remember correctly....but

 

I thought the last mistake she made was 70 years ago?  I always assumed her project - whatever it is - might have gone on for longer than that.  Am I just remembering things wrong?

 

I really love the assessment of Verin in this post.

 

You are correct.  The 70 years specifically tied to her last significant mistake.  I tend to see that mistake as something she did while going about her larger task

 

Actually no, Verin does specify that her plan began seventy years ago in LoC chapter 11 - Lessons and Teachers.

 

Almost seventy years of delicate work on her part, and now it might all go to naught because of one young man.

 

OK, I think I understand your point better now.  I'm not sure I agree ... but then I'm not sure I disagree either.  If Verin is deliberately using those tactics to isolate Rand in an effort to force him to lead ... well, I'm actually not sure thats a good idea either.  The world of the Wheel is far more complex than what Ender had to deal with at Battle School ... and leadership has always been more complicated than simple command.

 

Certainly there is a difference. Verin has no where near the sort of control or resources Graff had, and even if she did Graff's tactics would never have worked on Rand. He's too old, too set in his ways, and not self-aware enough. The point was more in the similarities of their intentions; specifically, in making Rand the leader.

 

Concider that RJ has shown himself not unaware of the need to remove the crutch that Moiraine was in order for Rand to grow as a leader. He removed her, and through his intention to bring her back we know that that removal was specific to removing her from the game in order that Rand step up, and not have anyone to lean on (as opposed to removing her for thematic purposes).

 

when fain retrieved his dagger, wasnt the horn also in the guarded room?

 

No. I used to think that myself, but if you look carefully the Horn is not in that room, and Suine's statements to Verin make it unlikely they would have ever even have concidered putting it in that room.

[GrandpaG]

I've looked through the posts and I could not find a solid theory on what Verin's long project has been.  Does anyone have a good idea?

 

Consider this:

 

Gitara:  Verin, you've been a good student and friend for many years.  I've taught you most everything that I think that I can.  I have not had a foretelling that I will die soon, but my body tells me each day that this could be my last.  You are the one person with the necessary knowledge to continue what we began preparing for over 50 years ago.  You must be sure that the dragon reborn is at the last battle.

 

Verin:  Girl, what are you talking about!  You have YEARS of life left in you!  Anyway...you've put too much time and effort into this project to die without seeing it finished.

 

Gitara:  There are two talented accepted who will rise quickly.  They are key to your efforts.  This I do foretell.

 

Verin:  Accepted.  With talent.  Rising quickly.  That covers a lot of the girls in the tower at this very minute.  How will I know who they are?

 

Gitara: They will know about the birth of the dragon.  Promise me that you will guide them toward the fulfillment of prophecy.  Promise me, dear Verin.

 

Verin: Oh, Gitara.  You know I will.

[lou]

if it had been he would have grabbed it on his way out, from what i remember he desided that he would have to come back for it, as he could sence it but it was somwere he couldent get to at the time.

 

maby verin killed asmoden

sighs....rudeness and sarcasm

actually, if you will recall, fain was interrupted by alvi in this instance. i just didnt recall if the horn was present or not.