S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[EmreY]

  On 4/21/2025 at 2:59 PM, Ralph said:

Jon on WotUp has an interesting theory that the collar Liandrin took from Nynaeve was a female a'dam and that N was tricking her into thinking they ad found what they wanted 

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I'd love that, if it were revealed to be the case.

 

...

 

I have a question.

 

Does everyone think the Moiraine-Rand discussion is frank and honest?

 

At first, I was glad of this scene, but Rand is so incredibly understanding and kind at a point in time when he's  started turning into emperor-with-a-heart-of-stone-with-an-annoying-voice-in-his-head that now something seems a little off.

[jh557]

  On 4/20/2025 at 4:43 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

The other thing I expect it to do is make it more of an impact if / when it does happen.  I'm leaning more and more towards Moraine is Cadsuane, so I don't know if they'll play it as a fake out, or if they go through the Mayene Door in Tear late next season, and they move Mat's rescue up in order to get Moraine back in time to be Caddy, plus break the bond and send Lan to Nynaeve.

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I think Mo being the one rescued from the ToG is going to be a hard thing to get to. She could send Lan to go be with Nyn because she just wants him to spend whatever time is left before the last battle with her. Losing Siuan after missing out on so much time with her because of their mission helps to make her push him to Nyn. Not perfect but can see this as a motivation. "Don't miss out like I did" trope while she is in mourning.   

 

The ToG plot in the books and all the factors leading to it was always kind of a mess.

 

Brigitte having insider knowledge of the Tower through past lives. Unless Nyn/Elayne raided the BA hideout and got the dream ring they don't even have a way to meet her and get that ball rolling. Thom might know a song/story about the inside or an aes sedai could be a source. You can always make up something for the knowledge so that is the least of it.

 

Thom and Mo falling in love was always a, Meh if you say so thing to me. I can only recall one short place in like book 4 where they talk and I guess bond over their great playing of the game of houses. And I think after spending a lot of time setting up a beautiful lesbian relationship that seems to possibly span across the ages and ended with great devotional speech from Siuan having Mo jump into a relationship with Thom would not go over well at all to say the least. So Thom then has no real motivation to go. 

 

Also Thom's info was a letter that Mo arranges after hearing about Morgase's death and knowing that certain futures could then play out. That death would likely not set off a chain in this story as Rand has little connection to Elayne and none of it romantic yet as he was still firmly in a relationship with Eg (while dream cheating) when he was around Elayne. So he likely would not rush to Caemlyn out of love/revenge.

 

And with Thom having no love motivation, Mat really then doesn't have any other than to get revenge on/get something from the Finns. But that doesn't have to include Mo. He barely knows Mo. Maybe a week leaving the two rivers. Then got separated. A couple days in suspicious sick mode in Tar Valon? Then no Fal Dara. Meet again in Falme and travel back and short time in Tar Valon. Then no Waste. So he has spent very little time with Mo. Plus we don't know the extent of what memories he lost. He could literally barely remember her if at all. 

 

I just can't see a way that they would set up the motivation of the rescue team specifically for Mo in the show. I was being overly snarky the last time I posted about this, but I really think it has to be somebody else Mat is going to rescue. Or to get knowledge of where the horn is or make it one of his gifts before the last battle with the horn's location possibly lost because no more Siuan if she hid it well enough.     

Edited April 22 by jh557

[DigificWriter]

When/if we get more seasons, Moiraine's death is still coming, and it's still most likely going to be permanent once it happens.

[DojoToad]

  On 4/21/2025 at 6:04 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Can't wait until they get 10 seasons, and start exploring CTE.

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That will bring us right back to the books where the damage/infection/entanglement was too complex for even Nynaeve to heal...

[SilentRoamer]

Regarding criticisms people have of the Healing in the show - what is annying me is they are completely ignoring the physical cost. Until late in the Third Age all Aes Sedai Healing took its power from the recipient (with the exception of the Healing weave used to refresh strength which took its strength from the caster).

It wasn't until late in the Third Age when Nynaeve al Meara rediscovered an ancient Healing technique which draws its power from the Source - I *think* she was inspired with the Aligning the Matrix weave from Damer Flynn to then use all Five Elements in different way, as opposed to the usual Healing which focused on Air, Spirit and Water. 

The show has completely ignored this - not even an acknowledgment like with Matt just eating constantly in the Tower. Aes Sedai can be near death then healed and start throwing around weaves, this is not how Healing works. 

This isn't just "healing magic" - the Wheel of Time has specific sets of metaphysical laws, things work in a particular way and if you just start tweaking here and altering there you end up with something that isn't even logically consistent. The same can be said with Season 1 when the whole Dragon Reborn search also included the women - despite the Prophecies being very specific and clear the Dragon Reborn must be a man. 

It's these sort of inconsistencies that just don't make sense to anyone familiar with the books. Healing all ailments without any consequence is not true to the source material. 

 

[SilentRoamer]

  On 4/22/2025 at 5:22 AM, EmreY said:

 

I'd love that, if it were revealed to be the case.

 

...

 

I have a question.

 

Does everyone think the Moiraine-Rand discussion is frank and honest?

 

At first, I was glad of this scene, but Rand is so incredibly understanding and kind at a point in time when he's  started turning into emperor-with-a-heart-of-stone-with-an-annoying-voice-in-his-head that now something seems a little off.

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I actually liked that scene - and it did reflect a point in the books where Rand began to trust Moiraine, coming off the back of Rhuidean it was well placed considering their shared traumatic experiences in the pillars and the rings respectively. 

TBH I like most of the scenes with Rand - Josha does a great job with him and he is so close to my head canon Rand. 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/22/2025 at 5:30 AM, jh557 said:

 

I think Mo being the one rescued from the ToG is going to be a hard thing to get to. She could send Lan to go be with Nyn because she just wants him to spend whatever time is left before the last battle with her. Losing Siuan after missing out on so much time with her because of their mission helps to make her push him to Nyn. Not perfect but can see this as a motivation. "Don't miss out like I did" trope while she is in mourning.   

 

The ToG plot in the books and all the factors leading to it was always kind of a mess.

 

Brigitte having insider knowledge of the Tower through past lives. Unless Nyn/Elayne raided the BA hideout and got the dream ring they don't even have a way to meet her and get that ball rolling. Thom might know a song/story about the inside or an aes sedai could be a source. You can always make up something for the knowledge so that is the least of it.

 

Thom and Mo falling in love was always a, Meh if you say so thing to me. I can only recall one short place in like book 4 where they talk and I guess bond over their great playing of the game of houses. And I think after spending a lot of time setting up a beautiful lesbian relationship that seems to possibly span across the ages and ended with great devotional speech from Siuan having Mo jump into a relationship with Thom would not go over well at all to say the least. So Thom then has no real motivation to go. 

 

Also Thom's info was a letter that Mo arranges after hearing about Morgase's death and knowing that certain futures could then play out. That death would likely not set off a chain in this story as Rand has little connection to Elayne and none of it romantic yet as he was still firmly in a relationship with Eg (while dream cheating) when he was around Elayne. So he likely would not rush to Caemlyn out of love/revenge.

 

And with Thom having no love motivation, Mat really then doesn't have any other than to get revenge on/get something from the Finns. But that doesn't have to include Mo. He barely knows Mo. Maybe a week leaving the two rivers. Then got separated. A couple days in suspicious sick mode in Tar Valon? Then no Fal Dara. Meet again in Falme and travel back and short time in Tar Valon. Then no Waste. So he has spent very little time with Mo. Plus we don't know the extent of what memories he lost. He could literally barely remember her if at all. 

 

I just can't see a way that they would set up the motivation of the rescue team specifically for Mo in the show. I was being overly snarky the last time I posted about this, but I really think it has to be somebody else Mat is going to rescue. Or to get knowledge of where the horn is or make it one of his gifts before the last battle with the horn's location possibly lost because no more Siuan if she hid it well enough.     

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Mo probably saved Mat's life from the dagger effects.  I think Mat would think that reason enough. Heck just the fact it was someone he knew is probably enough for him to want to save them even though  "He's no hero".

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 11:47 AM, SilentRoamer said:

I actually liked that scene - and it did reflect a point in the books where Rand began to trust Moiraine, coming off the back of Rhuidean it was well placed considering their shared traumatic experiences in the pillars and the rings respectively. 

TBH I like most of the scenes with Rand - Josha does a great job with him and he is so close to my head canon Rand. 

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My issue is that Moiraine was actively working with Lanfear and that led to his friends being mortally wounded which is far far worse than her manipulation of him during the books. Jumping from that to solid trust is a big step.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:11 PM, Mailman said:

My issue is that Moiraine was actively working with Lanfear and that led to his friends being mortally wounded which is far far worse than her manipulation of him during the books. Jumping from that to solid trust is a big step.

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He literally explains why he decides to finally trust her. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:51 PM, Elder_Haman said:

He literally explains why he decides to finally trust her. 

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I know he gives reasons it's just I don't think I would leap to that level of trust with someone who had done the things she had. You could maybe start a conversation on a path to trust but to just bypass the mortal wounding of his lifelong best friends by her alliance with Lanfear feels a bit to far.

Edited April 22 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:21 PM, Mailman said:

I don't think I would leap to that level of trust with someone who had done the things she had.

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Are you going insane because of the corrupting influence of Saidin? You’re missing the bigger thematic picture. 
 

He decides to trust Moiraine because she acted like a ruthless pragmatist in pursuing Rand’s victory. Is that the lesson Rand should be taking away as he goes mad? 
 

I know you think it’s “bad writing,” but I’m not sure what more you want the writers to do. Rand explained his reasons. And those reasons have enormous, theme and plot appropriate ramifications for the story to come. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:27 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Are you going insane because of the corrupting influence of Saidin? You’re missing the bigger thematic picture. 
 

He decides to trust Moiraine because she acted like a ruthless pragmatist in pursuing Rand’s victory. Is that the lesson Rand should be taking away as he goes mad? 
 

I know you think it’s “bad writing,” but I’m not sure what more you want the writers to do. Rand explained his reasons. And those reasons have enormous, theme and plot appropriate ramifications for the story to come. 

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It just does not fit to me. Would someone willing to side with that ruthless pragmatist still go and fulfill his Ji to a dead girl? They have started to show some of the madness stuff but it has been fairly low key till now. Maybe it's sudden onset. Like I said I just find it a bit abrupt.

[SilentRoamer]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:11 PM, Mailman said:

My issue is that Moiraine was actively working with Lanfear and that led to his friends being mortally wounded which is far far worse than her manipulation of him during the books. Jumping from that to solid trust is a big step.

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If this was book Rand I would agree - but TV Rand has also been getting a little bit jiggy with Lanfear and at this point is not morally clear, considering his experiences in the Pillars and his understanding that he has to break the Aiel.

Honestly I thought it was fitting and a good way to establish their bond, I remember at the point where Moiraine gets pushed through the frame she is one of few people Rand trusts and an even smaller circle of those he will willingly risk. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:45 PM, SilentRoamer said:

If this was book Rand I would agree - but TV Rand has also been getting a little bit jiggy with Lanfear and at this point is not morally clear, considering his experiences in the Pillars and his understanding that he has to break the Aiel.

Honestly I thought it was fitting and a good way to establish their bond, I remember at the point where Moiraine gets pushed through the frame she is one of few people Rand trusts and an even smaller circle of those he will willingly risk. 

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But her journey to that trust is a straight oath that he knows to be true and because of that oath and an extended time when she explicitly follows his commands and lead.

 

Hardly the same as finding out he she was conspiring with Lanfear behind his back and had allowed Eggy to be mind terrorized and his friends to be mortally wounded in order to drive them away from him.

Edited April 22 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:42 PM, Mailman said:

It just does not fit to me. Would someone willing to side with that ruthless pragmatist still go and fulfill his Ji to a dead girl? They have started to show some of the madness stuff but it has been fairly low key till now. Maybe it's sudden onset. Like I said I just find it a bit abrupt.

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Isn’t that the whole point of Rand as a character? The struggle between those two halves? Did we even read the same books?

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:39 PM, Elder_Haman said:

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:42 PM, Mailman said:

It just does not fit to me. Would someone willing to side with that ruthless pragmatist still go and fulfill his Ji to a dead girl? They have started to show some of the madness stuff but it has been fairly low key till now. Maybe it's sudden onset. Like I said I just find it a bit abrupt.

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Isn’t that the whole point of Rand as a character? The struggle between those two halves? Did we even read the same books?

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Just to chime in here, but I thought it was fairly obvious that scene was a nod to Rand starting his "list".

[Sabio]

  On 4/19/2025 at 1:14 PM, Scarloc99 said:

The fact is in the books it’s Siuan’s arc, and there are many of us who think WOT is great because of the politics. I know for me if you took that out I would have probably ignored it and not bothered reading anymore. 
 

So RJ takes Siuan out and then creates a new character to do the same thing for egwene? That’s like saying does Rand have to be the dragon reborn, isn’t there another character who could end up fighting the last battle. RJ made certain characters to have certain roles in the story. I really see no point in the TV show in killing off a major character to then give her entire arc to another character? 

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This is one of those times I think both sides have a point, yes I found it odd Rand wasn't a little more upset at discovering Moiraine was working with Lanfear and putting his friends in danger.  But he really can't be too upset considering he is also chatting and getting friendly with Lanfear.  

[Turin Turambar]

My take on the Rand and Moiraine  conversation was that Rand saw that Moiraine was fully committed to his victory for the light. With no reservations. Remember that this about the time that Rand feels he has to become harder. I think this is the show representing that mindset.

[Skipp]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:58 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

Just to chime in here, but I thought it was fairly obvious that scene was a nod to Rand starting his "list".

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His thousand yard stare while talking with Egwene gave me that vibe.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:39 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Isn’t that the whole point of Rand as a character? The struggle between those two halves? Did we even read the same books?

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Honestly I am not sure.

 

It may be my book view that is causing me to doubt this.

 

Rand is far from his I must be as hard as Ceundillar character at this point in the TV show. Also the books being adapted support this view.

 

IMO he is somewhere along the path of I don't want people trying to control and manipulate me path and for this version of his character to just insta forgive Moiraine for conspiring with Lanfear to isolate him and control him feels wrong.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/22/2025 at 10:40 PM, Mailman said:

IMO he is somewhere along the path of I don't want people trying to control and manipulate me path and for this version of his character to just insta forgive Moiraine for conspiring with Lanfear to isolate him and control him feels wrong.

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Well, if you remember the beginning of TDR, what did Rand do?

 

He solo'd his way to the Stone of Tear, basically on a murder hobo rampage, with Moiraine and Company in hot pursuit. 

The Aiel found him there, as he declared himself with Callandor.

 

So... it's possible they could do still do that plan with Rand just going peace ya'll. And Moiraine, Lan, Egwene and co chasing him to Tear where they'll inevitably run into a bunch of White Cloaks holding Perrin captive...

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 12:39 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Well, if you remember the beginning of TDR, what did Rand do?

 

He solo'd his way to the Stone of Tear, basically on a murder hobo rampage, with Moiraine and Company in hot pursuit. 

The Aiel found him there, as he declared himself with Callandor.

 

So... it's possible they could do still do that plan with Rand just going peace ya'll. And Moiraine, Lan, Egwene and co chasing him to Tear where they'll inevitably run into a bunch of White Cloaks holding Perrin captive...

 

 

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He did have the forsaken taunting his dreams with visions of callandor and Moiraine trying to push and control him to take certain actions. Moiraines pushing of him certainly played some role in his decision to leave for Tear.

 

I would not describe it as a murder rampage as such we get the scene where he kills the guards and the lady that wants to share his fire but we never find out for certain if they are DFs or not there was certainly a grey man present at the time. And he rants of other attacks and his dreams being constantly full of attacks.

 

Also the thought of taking callandor would prove him either the Dragon or not for certain.

 

The issue with Tear for me now is Rand has at least half the Aiel maybe behind him which is a lot different force than the sneaky one that was present in the books which means a reworking will be required if that sequence remains.

Edited April 23 by Mailman

[Sabio]

Something the show left out that has bothered me was Rand saying the Maidens carry my honor.  

[DaddyFinn]

  On 4/23/2025 at 10:18 AM, Sabio said:

Something the show left out that has bothered me was Rand saying the Maidens carry my honor.  

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There hasn't been pretty much any interaction between Rand and the Maidens. Maybe next season.

Edited April 23 by DaddyFinn
Typo

[Elglin]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:42 PM, Mailman said:

It just does not fit to me. Would someone willing to side with that ruthless pragmatist still go and fulfill his Ji to a dead girl? They have started to show some of the madness stuff but it has been fairly low key till now. Maybe it's sudden onset. Like I said I just find it a bit abrupt.

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Those are completely different things. Fulfilling the toh to the dead girl shows Rand at least partly embracing and certainly valuing the Aiel culture (just like in the books) and his remorse and guilt complex with that list of dead women (also just like in the books). This is the emotional part of Rand.

Siding with Show!Moiraine is different. Through TDR and TSR Rand gradually embraces the fact that he is what he is and that walking the path of the prophecies is a reasonable choice (not much different in the show). He is now set on his path.

The Show!Moiraine, much, much more than the book version of her, regards him as a thing. A self-propelled rapid-fire guided nuclear missile launcher. This makes her very pragmatic and rational and exactly for that reason predictable. Which is a big reason that Show!Rand is fine with that - it so happens that her goals align well with his, so she is a useful and predictable situational ally. Is that too pragmatic for Rand? Well, that's the same guy who used a captured Forsaken to train him for an entire book. Rand can be very pragmatic at times, although it's quite a few books and quite some shit later that he becomes pragmatism incarnate.