S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:42 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The fox-like being that Mat met identified itself as Eelfinn, and Elaida's bracelet was identified as having come from the Eelfinn specifically, but she and Mat went through two different doorways.

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So? That doesn’t mean that there are no Aelfinn. 

[Ralph]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:44 PM, Ralph said:

 

So they may be distinct entities, but both accessed through both doorways. (Like in the Tower of Ghenjei) 

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Did both doorways have both foxes and snakes engraved? 

 

We had the game of snakes and foxes already

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:10 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

I think it was @SinisterDeath that said Siuan's final speech went on too long/took away from Rand a little at the end?

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Nope.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:45 PM, Elder_Haman said:

So? That doesn’t mean that there are no Aelfinn. 

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There's no practical logic in the idea that two different people went through two completely different doorways 10 years apart but only ever encountered fox-like Eelfinn (instead of snake-like Aelfinn).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:51 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

There's no practical logic in the idea that two different people went through two completely different doorways 10 years apart but only ever encountered fox-like Eelfinn (instead of snake-like Aelfinn).

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2 people doing the same thing 10 years apart is an absurdly small sample size. You can draw no conclusions whatsoever from such a thing. It would be like me saying I've been to two hospitals in the last 10 years and have only encountered female nurses. Therefore, male nurses don't exist.

 

You also ignore the fact that we've actually seen the snakes represented in the Snakes & Foxes game.

Edited April 18 by Elder_Haman

[Jaysen Gore]

The thing for me with the Fox is that the room should have been so much less bright - not only would shadow and darkness added to the creepy vibe and helped give it the feel of a fox's den, but it also would have helped tone down the bright cartoony feel.

 

I guess, similar to my overall opinion of the show, it was nowhere near as good as I'd hoped, but could have been worse. But unlike the show, I knew this was going to need to be an accept it and move past it, and pray it wasn't laughably bad, which it wasn't

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:53 PM, Elder_Haman said:

2 people doing the same thing 10 years apart is an absurdly small sample size. You can draw no conclusions whatsoever from such a thing. It would be like me saying I've been to two hospitals in the last 10 years and have only encountered female nurses. Therefore, male nurses don't exist.

 

You also ignore the fact that we've actually seen the snakes represented in the Snakes & Foxes game.

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I'm not arguing that the snake-like Finns don't exist; I'm saying that they don't have their own distinct species name in the show and are Eelfinn just like the fox-like Finns are Eelfinn.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:13 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm not arguing that the snake-like Finns don't exist; I'm saying that they don't have their own distinct species name in the show and are Eelfinn just like the fox-like Finns are Eelfinn.

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Just based on the fact that there were two doors? That's a massive leap in logic.

[notpropaganda73]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:13 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm not arguing that the snake-like Finns don't exist; I'm saying that they don't have their own distinct species name in the show and are Eelfinn just like the fox-like Finns are Eelfinn.

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In the English subtitles in the cold open of this episode, Alviarin says Aelfinn. 

[Ralph]

  On 4/18/2025 at 5:45 PM, Ralph said:

Did both doorways have both foxes and snakes engraved? 

 

We had the game of snakes and foxes already

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In Tar Valon has both

 

and in Tanchico is the same

 

So makes sense they can have a third if they want. Possible if they do have the Moiraine rescue that it can be via a doorway also

Edited April 18 by Ralph

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:23 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

In the English subtitles in the cold open of this episode, Alviarin says Aelfinn. 

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You're right. However, given that, as noted, Elaida's bracelet was specifically identified as coming from the Eelfinn, that may be a pronunciation thing and not an indicator of a distinction in species names.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:30 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

You're right. However, given that, as noted, Elaida's bracelet was specifically identified as coming from the Eelfinn, that may be a pronunciation thing and not an indicator of a distinction in species names.

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The Eelfinn give gifts. The Aelfinn do not. Both were name dropped in the episode. I don’t see much support for your theory. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:32 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The Eelfinn give gifts. The Aelfinn do not. Both were name dropped in the episode. I don’t see much support for your theory. 

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Alviaren says Aelfinn, but she also says, one sentence later, "Every gift the Finn give has a price." 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:36 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Alviaren says Aelfinn, but she also says, one sentence later, "Every gift the Finn give has a price." 

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I’m not seeing how that helps your argument. They literally name drop the thing you says doesn’t exist. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mirefox said:

Moiraine shielding Sammael is 100% what is wrong with the garbage-tier writing on this show.  In Season 1, we had something like 8 Aes Sedai keeping a constant shield on Logain, Moiraine included.  Skip two seasons forward and Moiraine just casually drops that, by the way, she can now tie off shields and subdue a Forsaken.  Not earned, not explained, just written that way because that’s how the writers want it.  

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Not an ideal explanation but moraine experienced being tied off in a shield and Rand explained what he saw as he untied it so in terms of TV logic that isn’t a massive stretch, 

 

she also has the added boost now of her glass orb so that allows her to have the power of 8. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:39 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Not an ideal explanation

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And perhaps not the correct one. It was my impression that this was still part of the uneasy alliance between Mo and Lanfear and that it was Lanfear who actually shielded Sammael. 

 

I base this opinion on the conversation between Lanfear and Rand where she talks about Sammael being Rand's teacher. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:39 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Not an ideal explanation but moraine experienced being tied off in a shield and Rand explained what he saw as he untied it so in terms of TV logic that isn’t a massive stretch, 

 

she also has the added boost now of her glass orb so that allows her to have the power of 8. 

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Yes, my point was more directed at the way it is written/introduced than that it happened.  When you show - at least twice - a man being actively shielded and then just casually drop “tying it off” later, you need to connect that discrepancy.   
 

I think it’s a stretch for her to have “learned” it when she was shielded because she couldn’t see the weaves, but she could have said something like “I was shielded once.  The weaves were tied off.  I’ve been practicing.  It’s a neat trick, isn’t it?”

 

I’ve beaten this dead horse plenty, but my criticism was of the writing.  One line, half a second of dialogue, works as connective tissue for two disparate handlings of an ability but they dropped the ball on it.

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:46 PM, Elder_Haman said:

And perhaps not the correct one. It was my impression that this was still part of the uneasy alliance between Mo and Lanfear and that it was Lanfear who actually shielded Sammael. 

 

I base this opinion on the conversation between Lanfear and Rand where she talks about Sammael being Rand's teacher. 

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This may also be the case, end of the day it doesn’t really matter because he dies mins later. Wondering if there is a scene somewhere on a cutting room floor, 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:32 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The Eelfinn give gifts. The Aelfinn do not. Both were name dropped in the episode. I don’t see much support for your theory. 

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Book Aelfinn do not give gifts, they give Knowledge.

 

In the show, the only thing we know is that Elaida went through the doorway, the Aelfinn were named dropped. She came out staring at her bracelet, and we were told that every gift has a price.

 

Immediately after Elaida leaves the doorway, we also hear the same foxy laugh that Mat hears when he leaves.

What we don't know is if somehow, show Elaida managed to get some questions answered and then managed to get some wishes granted, because as it was made clear... not every sister who enters that doorway... leaves.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:36 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Alviaren says Aelfinn, but she also says, one sentence later, "Every gift the Finn give has a price." 

 

 

 

 

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I haven’t been following this conversation at all; I don’t know the argument.  That said, given that the term “Finn” is usually used by fans to group both species, it follows that they use it in the show as shorthand for both.  If there were only one Finn species in the show, it would make most sense for a character to refer to it by name.

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:24 PM, Ralph said:

In Tar Valon has both

 

and in Tanchico is the same

 

So makes sense they can have a third if they want. Possible if they do have the Moiraine rescue that it can be via a doorway also

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I think we have 1 maybe 2 seasons left, the moraine rescue is not happening, 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:48 PM, Scarloc99 said:

This may also be the case, end of the day it doesn’t really matter because he dies mins later. Wondering if there is a scene somewhere on a cutting room floor, 

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Besides Sammael you mean?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:50 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I think we have 1 maybe 2 seasons left, the moraine rescue is not happening, 

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Hard disagree. I think it's inevitable at this point. Mat and Min are going to need something to do. 

[DigificWriter]

I'll concede the possibility that Elaida met both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn but that Alviaren only namechecked the Aelfinn, but then you have to answer the question of why Mat also didn't meet both species.

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:51 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Hard disagree. I think it's inevitable at this point. Mat and Min are going to need something to do. 

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Next season Rand takes tear and fights the dark one potentially, 

 

Or if we are lucky next season Rand takes tear and then we get a season building to the last battle. 
 

I really don’t see how we have time to do the Rand live stories with all 3 women and save moraine and cleanse the source and everything else that needs to happen, including Egwenes story which is clearly now going to be her teaching herself how to politic to the Amyrilian Seat with no help.