S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 1:46 PM, Turin Turambar said:

She literally said tying a weave is a neat trick. The tone and delivery indicated she figured it out. There isn't enough time to spell everything out. 

Fair  enough about leaving him but there are logistics involved in moving him and explaining why he is prisoner and not dead. Maybe they weren't ready to explain and devote resources to guards believing he was secure.  OR just a dumb move to allow Moggy to play. 

Expand  

TBF, it is a valid criticism that the show isn't giving enough screen time to these little scenes to add nuance to these situations.

 

Take the scene just after the battle of the Two Rivers. 

Aram's sitting all depressed, and Ila is looking away with a tear in her eye.

 

It's implied that he has been shunned as a Tuath'an, but we never got that scene. Why? Because we got that scene in Rand's Vision.

 

What's that thing that's been hammered home about adaptations?

Show, don't tell. Right?

Well, here's another part of that. You can't always tell a story through inference and expect the audience to just get what you're telling without showing it to them. 

 

If You're dealing with a subplot like Alviarin, then yeah, that works. But you can't always do that with everything. just to cut down on time. 

 

The battle of the two Rivers episodes was exactly 1 Hour! They could have shown us a quick 30 second scene of Ila repeating those heart wrenching lines to Aram.

 

They could have done soo much more in that episode and it could have been even better then it was, just by adding a few more scenes. But they choose to make the Perrin focused episode, the penultimate episode this season... The shortest episode, and that speaks volumes.

 

So yeah, sometimes you do need to slow down and tell a story by showing that story instead of just inferring things happened off screen. That's how you world build. Right now, they're not world building.

 

Right now, they're telling a bunch of disconnected stories and every time they make a new rule, they change that rule whenever it fits the plot armor.

[DigificWriter]

Actively pushing for a show that you don't personally enjoy to not be renewed doesn't demonstrate rational thinking.

 

Having now slept on this episode, I can sit back and try to comment on it somewhat coherently:

* I was surprised that Siuan had only been the Amrylin for 10 years 

 

* There's a part of me that wishes that I hadn't learned about the Eielfinn being the source of Elaida's bracelet ahead of time

 

* Speaking of the Eielfinn, I didn't think their design was fox-like enough, which was disappointing

 

* Was anybody else weirded out by  the Channeling effect they used when Nynaeve un-Blocked herself?

 

* I officially hate Lanfear and Liandrin now

 

* I can't remember if it was here, on Facebook, or in the Wheel & Chill Show Live Chat from one of the other episodes, but somebody in one of those places predicted Siuan's death and I want to congratulate them for being right, as heartbreaking as it was

 

* Somebody else in one of those places also called Thom and Elayne conversing with each other and Thom exposing Rhavin's tied-off Compulsion and false memory Weaves

 

* Rand being completely unattached now romantically sets the table for him to bond with Avi in that way, which is good

 

* I came into this episode expecting a bunch of stuff to either happen or not happen, but didn't get the payoff, which left me feeling kind of 'meh' to 'grr' about it last night, but upon further reflection, my reaction has tempered a bit. I'd still challenge the assertion that it's a better episode than either The Eye of the World and/or What Was Meant to Be, though

 

 

 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:04 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

Right now, they're telling a bunch of disconnected stories and every time they make a new rule, they change that rule whenever it fits the plot armor.

Expand  

Amen and hallelujah.

 

The complete irony is that way back in S1E5 we were told ad nauseum how important is was to spend half of an episode on the death of a warder that didn’t matter because of how integral that was to building the lore and setting up later arcs.

 

Sanderson claimed that production started on one of these seasons without a full roadmap as that different writers were working on different episodes without much consultation between them.  I think what you describe is the end result, where we have a ton of scenes that they wanted to show without the connective tissue and the consistency between them.

 

 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

Actively pushing for a show that you don't personally enjoy to not be renewed doesn't demonstrate rational thinking.

Expand  

Well perhaps I’m qualified to join the writing staff then. I certainly could not do a worse job and I might just be able to fix a few things🤔

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 12:59 PM, Mirefox said:

I agree that the sooner this is canned and forgotten the better, but I’m the pessimist that assumes this was the one shot this novel got.  There are few examples that come to mind of an adaptation failing but then a second reviving the series.  Dune, maybe.  And then there’s the whole inexplicably weird Harry Potter thing going on, but I guess only time may or may not tell.

Expand  

That’s a fair point and I too am concerned that this may be WOTs one and only shot at an adaptation and I struggled with the question of whether it’s better to have this adaptation than none at all.  On the other hand, reboots really weren’t a thing until relatively recently so that ups my hopes that WOT may get a second shot. I mean the 2002 Queen of the Damned pretty well put Vampire chronicles adaptations on hiatus for a while but now we have a pretty decent AMC show. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

Actively pushing for a show that you don't personally enjoy to not be renewed doesn't demonstrate rational thinking.

 

Having now slept on this episode, I can sit back and try to comment on it somewhat coherently:

* I was surprised that Siuan had only been the Amrylin for 10 years 

 

* There's a part of me that wishes that I hadn't learned about the Eielfinn being the source of Elaida's bracelet ahead of time

 

* Speaking of the Eielfinn, I didn't think their design was fox-like enough, which was disappointing

 

* Was anybody else weirded out by  the Channeling effect they used when Nynaeve un-Blocked herself?

 

* I officially hate Lanfear and Liandrin now

 

* I can't remember if it was here, on Facebook, or in the Wheel & Chill Show Live Chat from one of the other episodes, but somebody in one of those places predicted Siuan's death and I want to congratulate them for being right, as heartbreaking as it was

 

* Somebody else in one of those places also called Thom and Elayne conversing with each other and Thom exposing Rhavin's tied-off Compulsion and false memory Weaves

 

* Rand being completely unattached now romantically sets the table for him to bond with Avi in that way, which is good

 

* I came into this episode expecting a bunch of stuff to either happen or not happen, but didn't get the payoff, which left me feeling kind of 'meh' to 'grr' about it last night, but upon further reflection, my reaction has tempered a bit. I'd still challenge the assertion that it's a better episode than either The Eye of the World and/or What Was Meant to Be, though

 

 

 

Expand  

So when there is a beloved work that is being mishandled and bastardized it is not rational to want the mistreatment to end as a demonstration that the source deserved better care?  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:41 PM, Mirefox said:

So when there is a beloved work that is being mishandled and bastardized it is not rational to want the mistreatment to end as a demonstration that the source deserved better care?  

Expand  

I'd say no, as it prioritises your own opinions and feelings over that other fans who equally love the work. 

 

You hoping the show gets cancelled is similar if I were to hope you hate the show. 

 

You want something to be taken away from the fans of the Wheel of Time, because you seem to think that only your opinion of the show is valid. If I am not mistaken, you have literally said you are only here to try to convince people of how bad the show is - you think people that like the show are wrong and mistaken, not that they have a different opinion than you. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:41 PM, Mirefox said:

there is a beloved work that is being mishandled and bastardized

Expand  

In your opinion. That opinion is not shared by everyone. 

 

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:22 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

I certainly could not do a worse job

Expand  

I’d be willing to take that bet…

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:52 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'd say no, as it prioritises your own opinions and feelings over that other fans who equally love the work. 

Expand  

Playing devil's advocate here. It's irrational for someone to want the show cancelled because others enjoy it.

 

So it's also irrational that I think shows like Dr. Phil, the Wendy Williams show, and most of Fox News should have been cancelled Decades ago?

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:41 PM, Mirefox said:

So when there is a beloved work that is being mishandled and bastardized it is not rational to want the mistreatment to end as a demonstration that the source deserved better care?  

Expand  

 

No, for two reasons:

1. Not everyone agrees that the source material is being 'mishandled', 'bastardized', or 'mistreated'

 

2. Those who dislike the TV adaptation are, to borrow words from the Aeiel, 'a remnant of a remnant' of the target audience

Edited April 18 by DigificWriter

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:48 AM, Sabio said:

The Finn looked way too much like it was from Dr Seuss to me, very cartoony.

Expand  

Frankly, I would have been more satisfied if this guy had turned up on the other side of the archway 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:56 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Playing devil's advocate here. It's irrational for someone to want the show cancelled because others enjoy it.

 

So it's also irrational that I think shows like Dr. Phil, the Wendy Williams show, and most of Fox News should have been cancelled Decades ago?

Expand  

 

There's not really any equivalency here because the WoT adaptation's existence doesn't and cannot cause actual harm or detriment to anyone, either societally or culturally, which is very much not the case when it comes to the other  things you mentioned.

[Ralph]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:56 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Playing devil's advocate here. It's irrational for someone to want the show cancelled because others enjoy it.

 

So it's also irrational that I think shows like Dr. Phil, the Wendy Williams show, and most of Fox News should have been cancelled Decades ago?

Expand  

Do you watch them anyway just to torture yourself? 😜

[Turin Turambar]

Did you understand that it was a non-human creature? If so, then it did its job.

How much screen time does the "fox" have? How much do you think should be spent on that character? Money is a real consideration for the show. 

I can see wanting to see a more alien creature but it just isn't feasible imo.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:56 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Playing devil's advocate here. It's irrational for someone to want the show cancelled because others enjoy it.

 

So it's also irrational that I think shows like Dr. Phil, the Wendy Williams show, and most of Fox News should have been cancelled Decades ago?

Expand  

Good question. But I think slightly twisting the situation with the juxtaposition. I'm not that familiar with the programmes you are referring to, but say for example, if you thought Jerry Springer should have been cancelled as it was exploitative, that has nothing to do with another's enjoyment. 

 

Focusing on the Wheel of Time, wanting it to be cancelled because it is not good enough relative the source is a subjective call. To take your own opinion as objective truth because you love the source material, yet ignore the opinion of others who also love the source material seems slightly hypocritical. 

 

Of course in material terms,, wanting/hoping for it to be cancelled and not caring if it is or not makes little difference, but it seems to be something of a destroyer of the sense of community, if fans only respect other fans who share their viewpoints. 

Edited April 18 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:06 PM, Ralph said:

Do you watch them anyway just to torture yourself? 😜

Expand  

Only when I was younger, visiting my grandparents and that's what they put on TV.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:52 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'd say no, as it prioritises your own opinions and feelings over that other fans who equally love the work. 

 

You hoping the show gets cancelled is similar if I were to hope you hate the show. 

 

You want something to be taken away from the fans of the Wheel of Time, because you seem to think that only your opinion of the show is valid. If I am not mistaken, you have literally said you are only here to try to convince people of how bad the show is - you think people that like the show are wrong and mistaken, not that they have a different opinion than you. 

Expand  

I don’t believe I ever said that, and if I did I was wrong.  I want this show to be incredible, which is why I’m so highly critical of it.  This show wallows in mediocrity and so much objectively poorly-structured writing that could be fixed but that hasn’t been.  If you want to call it irrational or dismiss it as my opinion, fine, but it is equally irrational and dismissible as opinion to champion the show and to dismiss the myriad writing issues in lieu of entertainment.  That, of course, brings us full circle to everyone being irrational and everyone having their own opinion, but I and a couple of others were singled out as being irrational and had to defend our position.  Perhaps I missed the post where you called out @DigificWriter for basing his posts on his own opinions.  Or is it just one-sided, here?

[Elder_Haman]

I think at the end of the day, the rancor comes down to two diametrically opposed things:

 

(1) People who feel really let down that their vision of what this show could be was not realized and feel the overwhelming need to vocalize that 

 

-versus-

 

(2) People who really love seeing this thing they love on the screen and finding it very frustrating that people keep wanting to poop on it. 
 

Neither is wrong. Both deserve validation. Which is why it is best to ground our posts in specifics rather than broad generalizations. But even then, there’s just no way we are all going to agree. Which is okay. 

[Mirefox]

Regarding the Finn, I know opinions are all over the place.  As I’ve said, I totally agree that he looked like a Seuss character or a reject from the Cats adaptation, but I also always thought they would look weird.

 

That said, you know how we sometimes get images stuck in our head in spite of how they are written?  I always pictured the Finn more human-like, but with some uncanny resemblances to the creatures they represent.  Now, in spite of having read multiple times, I can’t remember their exact descriptions.  I know the foxes were “fox-like,” but did they have muzzles in the book?  Were they covered in hair?  I don’t remember at all.  I assumed they were more human, just with certain features that gave them an uncanny look.  It was easier to picture with the snakes because I kind of thought of them as Voldemort-esque, maybe with rougher or scalier skin, but still human.

 

I could be way off and I don’t know how I would have done it differently.  It was always going to be wild.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:07 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Did you understand that it was a non-human creature? If so, then it did its job.

How much screen time does the "fox" have? How much do you think should be spent on that character? Money is a real consideration for the show. 

I can see wanting to see a more alien creature but it just isn't feasible imo.

Expand  

So is Loial, so are the trollics but they didn’t look so ridiculously cartoony as to pull me out of the moment. So if a creature is nonhuman it doesn’t matter how fake or ridiculous it looks? Fine, why not just have Cookie Monster in there then?  

Edited April 18 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:07 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Of course in material terms,, wanting/hoping for it to be cancelled and not caring if it is or not makes little difference, but it seems to be something of a destroyer of the sense of community, if fans only respect other fans who share their viewpoints. 

Expand  

Aye, and that's the rub, isn't it?

 

People can want/hope for shows to be cancelled or renewed all they want, but this goes both ways you know?

 

If we don't want to destroy the community, we can't be at each others throats. You can't come here trying to change the others beliefs, and you definitely can't come here to proselytize your viewpoint. That's not going to work.

 

I'm going to wrap this up by saying this.

 

If there is no show, these forums? No one would be talking about anything in a couple of years. The books are done. This WoT community? I honestly don't know why the higher ups would bother keeping the web forums active if there's no one posting? Easier to just archive everything and shut it all down. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Of course we all have our own opinions. I'm not dismissing something because it is subjective, merely pointing that out. 

 

What I mean is the difference between actively wanting the show cancelled and not liking it yourself. Especially if you anchor that desire for it to be cancelled on how much you love the books. Because why is that more important than people who also love the books and are enjoying the show? It seems to me to be the opposite of agreeing to disagree, if you see what I mean.

 

I'm not undermining your opinion of the show or questioning your love of the books, I'm only pointing out they are not more valid than any other fan. 

[Ralph]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:12 PM, Mirefox said:

I don’t believe I ever said that, and if I did I was wrong.  I want this show to be incredible, which is why I’m so highly critical of it.  This show wallows in mediocrity and so much objectively poorly-structured writing that could be fixed but that hasn’t been.  If you want to call it irrational or dismiss it as my opinion, fine, but it is equally irrational and dismissible as opinion to champion the show and to dismiss the myriad writing issues in lieu of entertainment.  That, of course, brings us full circle to everyone being irrational and everyone having their own opinion, but I and a couple of others were singled out as being irrational and had to defend our position.  Perhaps I missed the post where you called out @DigificWriter for basing his posts on his own opinions.  Or is it just one-sided, here?

Expand  

 

Objectively... 

And anyone disagreeing really must agree, just they 'dismiss the myriad writing issues in lieu of entertainment' 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:19 PM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

So if a creature is nonhuman it doesn’t matter how fake or ridiculous it looks?

Expand  

This is super subjective. To me, it was very uncanny valley, which made it sort of terrifying. But I can see where it would come off as cheesy. It’s not the easiest thing to get perfect in a live action format. 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:22 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Aye, and that's the rub, isn't it?

 

People can want/hope for shows to be cancelled or renewed all they want, but this goes both ways you know?

 

If we don't want to destroy the community, we can't be at each others throats. You can't come here trying to change the others beliefs, and you definitely can't come here to proselytize your viewpoint. That's not going to work.

 

I'm going to wrap this up by saying this.

 

If there is no show, these forums? No one would be talking about anything in a couple of years. The books are done. This WoT community? I honestly don't know why the higher ups would bother keeping the web forums active if there's no one posting? Easier to just archive everything and shut it all down. 

Expand  

Now if there is anything that’s irrational it’s thinking you’re just going to wrap up an internet argument 😄

Edited April 18 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer