"The next Game of Thrones" is the problem

Spider Spence · December 10, 2023

I've struggled to put into words why the show feels 'off' from the books. I really don't care about the heavier focus on Moiraine, writing out some of the gender-essentialism, and I'll even forgive them for floundering around and being unable to really explain the Forsaken or the Power in any way that makes sense.

After watching S2, it's not so much the changes as the direction they've pushed the show in. All the changes made it Grim N Gritty, like those bad early 90s comics where Spider-Man lurked in the shadows and said "I become the spider!" or Batman got his back broken and then appointed a psychopath to be his replacement.

I finally put my finger on it. It's Game of Thrones. Or the attempt to be another Game of Thrones.

Every change in S1 pushed out the more light-hearted stuff. Hopper was gone, Thom was so heavily rewritten he was unrecognizable, the Duopotamians weren't yokels, and the cool sword-forms, the juggling and songs and sequences like the Caemlyn palace were all replaced by Dark & Dour™ material. I wouldn't have minded the Stepin sequence if it had been shorter and less of a divergence, but it took up time that could have been given to Elyas, more Thom, the Play For Your Supper sequence and all the other stuff that got cut.

I tried to articulate this more here (non-paywalled link here) for anyone who's interested in hot takes.

S2 was better, but other than the Hornsounding and FINALLY seeing Hopper, they seemed more interested in keeping the darker plotlines. I knew that the damane would be faithfully adapted because it's so gut-wrenching, but of course the Selene/Lanfear plot was made Very Adult. Jordan shunted Lan & Moiraine off to the side in Book 2, so I don't blame them for struggling to find stuff for those two to do. But their plots were mostly moping around. I also can see why they struggled with Mat, given that the character was pushed in a darker direction when Barney Harris had to be written out. But if S2 was also meant to cover Book 3, they also cut the ridiculous lucky streak, the fireworks, and a lot of Mat's posturing about being tough. And did we have to cut all the swordfighting? Like every last second of it?

Curious whether anyone else felt like this was the main problem.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Spider Spence
lol, I got my Batman lore wrong

books of Robert Jordan · December 10, 2023

WOT is unfilmable.

(Even GOT is just another proof that these kind of novels are not made for another media, just a shallow 'adaptation', which just scratching, barely scratching the surface.)

Or rather there's a very long film on the pages of Robert Jordan's books. 😉

Having said that 🙂 pouring $1.3-1.6 billion into the first six novels (in four years, no more!), and following Robert Jordan's books faithfully, hmm, I'd watch the trailer, that's for sure 🙂 , but even this gigantic budget and a whole different attitude from the creators could not match with Robert Jordan's vision. And they cannot match the vision which is living in my head even pouring all the money and talent in the world into a television series, that's for sure.

Anyway, this series is already forgotten by the viewers, so this problem won't be a problem in a few months/years.

HeavyHalfMoonBlade · December 10, 2023

Why are you so bitter?

So proud that you have not read the last three books, have not watched the series, yet spend inordinate amount of effort to analyse the viewing figures and proclaim the death of the series.?

Did an adaptation savage you as a child? What is your reason for your unreasoning hatred of things that others take pleasure in?

I could take the questions further but no doubt the Admins would have words with me again. But it is fascinating who some people do not like the series but appear to devote all their spare time to trashing it and partaking of the trashing by other people. I would love to have an insight into the mindset that causes this.

Spider Spence · December 11, 2023

I don't really feel like I"m making a critique in bad faith here. I mentioned things that I thought they did right. To me, the show has a big tone problem that is pushing them away from material that would work better.

HeavyHalfMoonBlade · December 11, 2023

14 minutes ago, Spider Spence said:

I don't really feel like I"m making a critique in bad faith here. I mentioned things that I thought they did right. To me, the show has a big tone problem that is pushing them away from material that would work better.

My reply was not to you, if this reply is to me. Er, does that make sense?

I don't disagree with you the tone is a problem. I don't agree either that it is a terrible problem.

The series has made the starting characters a bit more mature. As they acted about ten in the books, I don't think this is a bad thing. And yes burning handless women alive, is setting a definite tone, that does not make a lot of sense with the lore, though is not really misrepresenting the spirit of the Questioners. I would definitely liked to have more banter like the hero who didn't wear a coat when it was slightly chilly.

But I my opinion the balance of tone is pretty good.

And sword fighting was removed as Barney leaving meant the boys hunting the horn was changed to them more quickly splitting up. So Rand and Lan were separated, so no lessons, no sword fighting. I believe this has been promised to be coming in season three.

Samt · December 11, 2023

On 12/10/2023 at 10:01 AM, Spider Spence said:

I've struggled to put into words why the show feels 'off' from the books. I really don't care about the heavier focus on Moiraine, writing out some of the gender-essentialism, and I'll even forgive them for floundering around and being unable to really explain the Forsaken or the Power in any way that makes sense.

After watching S2, it's not so much the changes as the direction they've pushed the show in. All the changes made it Grim N Gritty, like those bad early 90s comics where Spider-Man lurked in the shadows and said "I become the spider!" or Batman retired so a psychotic Batman could go on a murdering spree.

I finally put my finger on it. It's Game of Thrones. Or the attempt to be another Game of Thrones.

Every change in S1 pushed out the more light-hearted stuff. Hopper was gone, Thom was so heavily rewritten he was unrecognizable, the Duopotamians weren't yokels, and the cool sword-forms, the juggling and songs and sequences like the Caemlyn palace were all replaced by Dark & Dour™ material. I wouldn't have minded the Stepin sequence if it had been shorter and less of a divergence, but it took up time that could have been given to Elyas, more Thom, the Play For Your Supper sequence and all the other stuff that got cut.

I tried to articulate this more here (non-paywalled link here) for anyone who's interested in hot takes.

S2 was better, but other than the Hornsounding and FINALLY seeing Hopper, they seemed more interested in keeping the darker plotlines. I knew that the damane would be faithfully adapted because it's so gut-wrenching, but of course the Selene/Lanfear plot was made Very Adult. Jordan shunted Lan & Moiraine off to the side in Book 2, so I don't blame them for struggling to find stuff for those two to do. But their plots were mostly moping around. I also can see why they struggled with Mat, given that the character was pushed in a darker direction when Barney Harris had to be written out. But if S2 was also meant to cover Book 3, they also cut the ridiculous lucky streak, the fireworks, and a lot of Mat's posturing about being tough. And did we have to cut all the swordfighting? Like every last second of it?

Curious whether anyone else felt like this was the main problem.

I think it depends on what you mean by "the next Game of Thrones." To me, that's really just a reference to the fact that a fantasy epic made it into mainstream TV. Ultimately, that's a goal, not a plan or direction. If you're saying that they are making it too dark and lascivious, I would agree. But I don't think that is the main problem. I think that the main problem is that it doesn't feel there is an ultimate vision of the story that they are trying to tell and they have strayed too far from the books to just say that they are telling the story that is in the books. It really feels like they are making it up as they go along. Maybe there will be payoff for changes that they are doing intentionally, but I am skeptical.

Mirefox · December 12, 2023

They changed the entire tone of the show and completely changed most of the characters just to try and make it “darker” and “more edgy.” Robbing the EF5 of their early innocence was unforgivable character assassination; what they did to Thom was laughable. There are many issues with the show and the shift in tone right out of the gates was a slap in the face to fans.

king of nowhere · December 12, 2023

i do like that they made the characters a bit more mature, because really, in the first books they could get really annoying. i disagree with the general tone shift, there is a clear striving to make the show darker whenever possible.

however, it does not particularly bother me. there are several things i disliked about the show, but none of them is related to adaptational faithfulness. and I still liked the show overall.

Spider Spence · December 14, 2023

On 12/11/2023 at 3:13 PM, Samt said:

I think it depends on what you mean by "the next Game of Thrones." To me, that's really just a reference to the fact that a fantasy epic made it into mainstream TV. Ultimately, that's a goal, not a plan or direction. If you're saying that they are making it too dark and lascivious, I would agree.

I guess I'm also putting some of the Rafe quotes I've heard into this--like the fact that they went for Warders/Aes Sedai politicking as an integral part of the plot from the start, the apparent hesitance of the network to have Perrin talk to wolves because it was too GoT-y, etc. To me, WoT's tone should be closer to LotR with moments of GoT-ishness, more as it goes along. You could definitely sell people on five seasons if you said: "We're starting at Tolkien and ending at Martin."

Kaleb · December 14, 2023

44 minutes ago, Spider Spence said:

I guess I'm also putting some of the Rafe quotes I've heard into this--like the fact that they went for Warders/Aes Sedai politicking as an integral part of the plot from the start, the apparent hesitance of the network to have Perrin talk to wolves because it was too GoT-y, etc. To me, WoT's tone should be closer to LotR with moments of GoT-ishness, more as it goes along. You could definitely sell people on five seasons if you said: "We're starting at Tolkien and ending at Martin."

I've seen people address this point with what seems like a sensible justification for not doing that. In TV, audiences can get really upset if they expect a family-friendly fantasy show from a first season and then end up with more sex and violence as the show goes on. Basically, if a show is going to have any mature-level sex and violence, the producers want to show at least some of that right up front.

mogi68 · December 17, 2023

On 12/11/2023 at 4:11 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Ad sword fighting was removed as Barney leaving meant the boys hunting the horn was changed to them more quickly splitting up. So Rand and Lan were separated, so no lessons, no sword fighting. I believe this has been promised to be coming in season three.

There was a training scene filmed for S1E2 but it didn't make the cut

NotJordan · December 18, 2023

I find this all quite humorous. The books are uneven and in spots quite awful and poorly written. So is the TV series better, and so not true to the awful books? Or is it just bad but in a different way?

books of Robert Jordan · December 18, 2023

9 hours ago, NotJordan said:

so not true to the awful books?

Like it ot not, Jordan, Martin, and Hobb have been/are/will be forever the kings and queen of epic fantasy. By the way it was really eye opening that fans (or so-called fans of WOT) of the tv series informed us that TEOTW is very bad, TGH is also very bad, TDR ditto, so I cannot wait till 2025 when they will inform us that TSR is also a very bad book, but thanks to the greatest writer and showrunner of all time, all the faults of the book are now corrected.

There are books, and books have fans. When someone does a TV adaptation, fans (most of them) want to watch a very faithful adaptation, not a retelling, not a brand new story which has zero common material with the original source. (I heard sometimes they using a name right, but that's not enough. 😉 )

And fans do not like when showrunners talk about their favorite books being bad, or need an 'update' to the 'modern' audience and many other things like these ones.

Heads of studios and showrunners have to understand that these are the problems, which cause that their projects get cancelled one after the other, and fans of different books getting more and more angrier, because the overwhelming majority wants to watch the the original stories of original authors, not the failed end-products of failed 'writers', 'producers', 'showrunners', who do not care about the original works.

An example: Jordan has no problem with sex (read his other books, and/or read his first ideas, notes, and thoughts of WOT – wot tidbits etc), but he deliberately decided to make the books 'sexless'. There is no sex scene between Rand and Eg, or between Rand and Lanfear at all. So, if there's no sex scene between them in the books, then there's no sex scene in adaptation. Is it really hard to do that? I know, I know. I'm an old, toxic etc. person. Sure.

Another example: according to Jordan AS look like sometimes 20, sometimes 40, 20, 40.

Another example: Min is not a pensioner in the books.

Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example.

I will very lightly touch upon Jordan's fan cast, because I will be branded racist right now. Now I'm old, toxic, and racist too. Sure. Wait a minute! Then Jordan was a racist too?

HeavyHalfMoonBlade · December 18, 2023

17 minutes ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

Like it ot not, Jordan, Martin, and Hobb have been/are/will be forever the kings and queen of epic fantasy. By the way it was really eye opening that fans (or so-called fans of WOT) of the tv series informed us that TEOTW is very bad, TGH is also very bad, TDR ditto, so I cannot wait till 2025 when they will inform us that TSR is also a very bad book, but thanks to the greatest writer and showrunner of all time, all the faults of the book are now corrected.

There are books, and books have fans. When someone does a TV adaptation, fans (most of them) want to watch a very faithful adaptation, not a retelling, not a brand new story which has zero common material with the original source. (I heard sometimes they using a name right, but that's not enough. 😉 )

And fans do not like when showrunners talk about their favorite books being bad, or need an 'update' to the 'modern' audience and many other things like these ones.

Heads of studios and showrunners have to understand that these are the problems, which cause that their projects get cancelled one after the other, and fans of different books getting more and more angrier, because the overwhelming majority wants to watch the the original stories of original authors, not the failed end-products of failed 'writers', 'producers', 'showrunners', who do not care about the original works.

An example: Jordan has no problem with sex (read his other books, and/or read his first ideas, notes, and thoughts of WOT – wot tidbits etc), but he deliberately decided to make the books 'sexless'. There is no sex scene between Rand and Eg, or between Rand and Lanfear at all. So, if there's no sex scene between them in the books, then there's no sex scene in adaptation. Is it really hard to do that? I know, I know. I'm an old, toxic etc. person. Sure.

Another example: according to Jordan AS look like sometimes 20, sometimes 40, 20, 40.

Another example: Min is not a pensioner in the books.

Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example, Another example.

I will very lightly touch upon Jordan's fan cast, because I will be branded racist right now. Now I'm old, toxic, and racist too. Sure. Wait a minute! Then Jordan was a racist too?

I think that actually you are talking for yourself, and not the fanbase, which has a much more varied opinion than you are detailing. And is there any reason sticking to facts is so difficult? The actor playing Min is what, 39? Too lazy to check.

And many people did not enjoy the first books, even those that love the series overall. My one friend who is really into fantasy books gave up in boredom around book 5-6, which according to you is impossible due to Jordan being the King of Fantasy.

On a side point, at least several people who have stated here on the boards that they did not like the first books also said that the only reason that they continued was that they already had/had access to the later books. I wonder how uniform this is (I can only bring to mind two concrete examples at the moment) but if you knew the third book was called the Dragon Reborn and had possibly read the blurbs of the some of the later books while considering to read them or not, then the slow reveal that the books were about the Dragon Reborn would be really painful. For me, it is not clear that Rand is the Dragon (or that the Dragon is anything but background info) until the very end of the first book, and what that means probably is not really settled until the third book or thereabouts.

Lots of people love the books. Lots of people don't. Your subjective opinion is not more correct because it is yours, and yes, you are toxic in the way you dismiss the opinions of others and hold your own up as the one true opinion. Which is of course, only my opinion. Everyone is allowed to discuss and come to their own opinion, in their own time, and without anyone bashing them for it.

Edited December 18, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

Mirefox · December 18, 2023

On 12/14/2023 at 2:49 PM, Kaleb said:

I've seen people address this point with what seems like a sensible justification for not doing that. In TV, audiences can get really upset if they expect a family-friendly fantasy show from a first season and then end up with more sex and violence as the show goes on. Basically, if a show is going to have any mature-level sex and violence, the producers want to show at least some of that right up front.

There’s also the old adage that sex sells. I fell like what we see far more often is a show luring an audience in with sex and nudity and then toning it down later in the series. Sometimes this might be because of renewed contracts with renewed language but I also think that some studios (HBO more than others) really try to use sex and nudity as a hook.

king of nowhere · December 19, 2023

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

There’s also the old adage that sex sells. I fell like what we see far more often is a show luring an audience in with sex and nudity and then toning it down later in the series. Sometimes this might be because of renewed contracts with renewed language but I also think that some studios (HBO more than others) really try to use sex and nudity as a hook.

is that still the case? sex has sold for a long time, but i would think that in a time where you have several million full lenght porn vids completely for free - just as an attempt to entice people into getting a premium subscription to see millions more - nobody should be reduced to watch a tv show because of nudity.

expat · December 20, 2023

On 12/18/2023 at 8:37 AM, books of Robert Jordan said:

Like it ot not, Jordan, Martin, and Hobb have been/are/will be forever the kings and queen of epic fantasy. By the way it was really eye opening that fans (or so-called fans of WOT) of the tv series informed us that TEOTW is very bad, TGH is also very bad, TDR ditto, so I cannot wait till 2025 when they will inform us that TSR is also a very bad book, but thanks to the greatest writer and showrunner of all time, all the faults of the book are now corrected.

There are books, and books have fans. When someone does a TV adaptation, fans (most of them) want to watch a very faithful adaptation, not a retelling, not a brand new story which has zero common material with the original source. (I heard sometimes they using a name right, but that's not enough. 😉 )

And fans do not like when showrunners talk about their favorite books being bad, or need an 'update' to the 'modern' audience and many other things like these ones.

Speaking only for myself since I'm not omnipotent, I want an entertaining TV series that allows me to get closer to the world of the books. Faithfulness for the sake of faithfulness at the cost of entertainment is a bad trade-off.

You are coming across as holier than the pope here. I expect that Robert Jordon himself, looking at the series as a whole for adaptation purposes would find issues with individual books and parts of books. The early books were interesting enough to continue reading the series, but they weren't perfect by any means.

Honest question, why do you think a "very faithful adaptation" (however you define it) would make entertaining TV?

In my view, things from the first 3 books that make bad TV include a lot of uninteresting walking from place to place, introduction of too many characters who are only important later in the series, cardboard thin characters for anyone not named Rand, few standout moments for anyone not named Rand except at the ends of books 2 and 3, and lots and lots of unfilmable POV. The first two seasons of the TV series addressed each of these issues one way or another. Maybe badly in some cases, but they attempted to replace things that made bad TV. Yes, they also update some of the sensibilities to better fit a modern audience. Why is this bad? An archaic feel to the show is not good TV and would tend to drive audiences away. Can you really watch archaic shows like Ozzie and Harriet today without feeling a little off-put?

Just to take one example that posters are complaining about - the lack of sword training for Rand. I always saw the sword training as a symbolic extension of the "am I the Dragon or Tam's son" debate. Since the debate was strictly in Rand's POV, sword training doesn't add any character depth without a deep exploration of the Dragon v Tam question. Because the question played out in Rand's head, there is no good way to film it. The only way would be lots of Rand spilling his guts to someone through repetitive dialogue which is not good TV.

Jamesy38 · April 10

The wheel of time, neither the books or the TV show, has nothing at all in common with the game of thrones. Comparing the two, or saying that the wheel of time is the new game of thrones is ridiculous. They are both completely different types of shows, and a completely different type of story all together.

DojoToad · April 10

We compare to show how things are different (and/or alike).

Maximillion · May 4

Whilst I think Rafe Judkins should never be forgiven for the mess he made of the show, it's not entirely his fault.

Sanderson recently said this after he also publicly apologised for what the show did to Perrin's character:

Quote

“They took it all the way to the higher-ups and fought for my version of it, and they said no.” Sanderson told the convention.

“There are certain things,” said the Stormlight Archive writer. “Certain forces moving. You know that Jeff Bezos, at one point, said, ‘I want Game of Thrones, buy it for me.’ And they were like, ‘You can’t have Game of Thrones,’ and he was like, ‘Buy me something that is my Game of Thrones’ And there are certain forces at work.”

“There’s just lots of forces at play,” he said, “I’ll just say that."

This very much plays to the OPs point.

By the way - the fact that Sanderson is talking like that suggests that this show is cooked and we've seen the last of it after season 3.

Edited May 4 by Maximillion

DojoToad · May 6

On 5/4/2024 at 4:35 AM, Maximillion said:

By the way - the fact that Sanderson is talking like that suggests that this show is cooked and we've seen the last of it after season 3.

Could be. But the streaming model is new enough that who knows how it will work out.

Elder_Haman · May 6

On 5/4/2024 at 1:35 AM, Maximillion said:

By the way - the fact that Sanderson is talking like that suggests that this show is cooked and we've seen the last of it after season 3.

What leads you to that conclusion? Sanderson has been calling it like he saw it from day one. These statements don't particularly stand out as ominous in any way.

Maximillion · June 27

On 5/6/2024 at 7:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What leads you to that conclusion? Sanderson has been calling it like he saw it from day one. These statements don't particularly stand out as ominous in any way.

Genuinely don't think he'd be calling out Bezos if he didn't think/know that the show was getting binned.

Has Season 4 been announced yet? Are they even going to finish Season 3 in post-production and get it on air? My guess is Season 3 will make it to the screens but there will be late changes to try and wrap it up as a story within the longer story. That will be it. Of course, I could be wrong. Just my feeling.

Elder_Haman · June 27

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Has Season 4 been announced yet? Are they even going to finish Season 3 in post-production and get it on air?

No, season 4 hasn’t been announced yet. But there is no reason to think Season 3 won’t be completed.

But as I said before, Sanderson has been calling it bluntly from the beginning. You’re grasping at straws.

Maximillion · June 27

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

No, season 4 hasn’t been announced yet. But there is no reason to think Season 3 won’t be completed.

But as I said before, Sanderson has been calling it bluntly from the beginning. You’re grasping at straws.

I don't think Sanderson has had a dig at Bezos before.

"The next Game of Thrones" is the problem

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