Potential fix for the overpowered Moiraine issue:

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

15 hours ago, Mailman said:

Dumai Wells would disagree with that. Kira and the other tower Aes Sedai had to actually feel threatened before they could bring the One Power to bear in the combat.

Because that was a confrontation with other Aes Sedai and with Aiel, not with darkfriends and not a declared war.   

 

You may well say the position I suggest is nothing but sophistry but that appears to be at the core of being an Aes Sedai during the period of the novels.   After all their interpretation of "I will speak no word that is not true" allows them to deliberately and intentionally mislead.

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Because that was a confrontation with other Aes Sedai and with Aiel, not with darkfriends and not a declared war.   

 

You may well say the position I suggest is nothing but sophistry but that appears to be at the core of being an Aes Sedai during the period of the novels.   After all their interpretation of "I will speak no word that is not true" allows them to deliberately and intentionally mislead.

It may be correct but I don't feel there is any evidence to back up your theory. There is nothing that I have seen that says an official declaration of war is enough to bypass the oaths.

 

At Dumai Wells the Aes Sedai had committed to an assault upon armed forces alongside channelers and could still not use abilities offensively till they were in danger. But you claim that something as simple as a declaration of war would have bypassed the oaths.

 

It makes a mockery of that oath entirely as the Amrilyn could simply declare War on anyone and then the oath is simply worthless. Hardly the safety net that they discuss during the books in regard to the safety of the world around the Aes Sedai.

 

[wotfan4472]

On 5/27/2024 at 10:12 AM, Samt said:

See that’s the question.  Is the oath shadowspawn and darkfriends? Or just shadowspawn.  The forsaken are dark friends all day.  But if the oath only says shadowspawn, it doesn’t include forsaken or other dreadlords.

 

In regards to the green, they can conceivably participate in the last battle by killing shadowspawn and using protective weaves.  Killing dreadlords would not be the only conceivable way to participate.

The Oath in the books named both shadowspawn and darkfriends as exempt from being protected from direct attacks by Aes Sedai. It also states that an Aes Sedai can channel to defend herself and her Warder. and can channel to defend another Aes Sedai and her Warder if attacked by others, like the Whitecloaks.

 

These are the only exceptions.

 

Going by how Moiraine behaved in the show so far, this Oath is unchanged.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Does it also go into the effect of the law of war? As that would only mean it did not have to be declared on the Shadow, not anything necessarily relating to the Oaths. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

21 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

The Oath in the books named both shadowspawn and darkfriends as exempt from being protected from direct attacks by Aes Sedai.

This isn't true. I cannot remember what it says in tEotW, but in the tGH, Sheriam tells Egwene in paraphrasing that both are included in the Oaths. But in NS where we see the direct wording the Oaths there is no explicit mention of darkfriends at all. 

 

I can double check this this evening, but I really am convinced that this is the case (famous last words) and why there is so much confusion about it. 

[Mailman]

We might also be limiting the definition of shadowspawn too narrowly. Seems highly unlikely that Aes Sedai would limit themselves against human agents in this way.

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

52 minutes ago, Mailman said:

We might also be limiting the definition of shadowspawn too narrowly. Seems highly unlikely that Aes Sedai would limit themselves against human agents in this way.

Wondering if the  oaths do not apply to the truth as we see it, but what the Aes Sedai  believes? If she believes something then the oaths will apply to that belief correct?

[Samt]

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Wondering if the  oaths do not apply to the truth as we see it, but what the Aes Sedai  believes? If she believes something then the oaths will apply to that belief correct?

The oaths are definitely built around what the Aes Sedai believes.  The prohibition on speaking words that aren't true would otherwise become an oracular gift where Aes Sedai can effectively ask the universe true/false questions at will.  

 

Including darkfriends in the oath opens up a lot since it could apply as long as the Aes Sedai has convinced herself that the target is a dark friend.  Expanding the oath further to include anyone helping a dark friend (even unwittingly) makes the oath effectively meaningless.  Allowing the one power to be used to attack objects (like sinking the ships) when we can be quite certain that the attack will injure or even kill people nearby (and arguably that injury is part of the point), also seems to completely negate the oath.  The question that we need to ask is: if the oath allows Moiraine to sink the ships, what does it actually prohibit?

[Mailman]

11 hours ago, Samt said:

The oaths are definitely built around what the Aes Sedai believes.  The prohibition on speaking words that aren't true would otherwise become an oracular gift where Aes Sedai can effectively ask the universe true/false questions at will.  

 

Including darkfriends in the oath opens up a lot since it could apply as long as the Aes Sedai has convinced herself that the target is a dark friend.  Expanding the oath further to include anyone helping a dark friend (even unwittingly) makes the oath effectively meaningless.  Allowing the one power to be used to attack objects (like sinking the ships) when we can be quite certain that the attack will injure or even kill people nearby (and arguably that injury is part of the point), also seems to completely negate the oath.  The question that we need to ask is: if the oath allows Moiraine to sink the ships, what does it actually prohibit?

Yes, but convincing themselves that the person is a darkfriend is already a fairly high bar. Just being a murderer, rapist or thief would not be enough you would require knowledge that they had committed themselves to the Dark One in order to circumvent the oaths. 

 

Just trying to make oneself think that someone is a Darkfriend because you don't like them is not going to make it true to yourself.

Edited May 29 by Mailman

[Skipp]

14 hours ago, Mailman said:

Yes, but convincing themselves that the person is a darkfriend is already a fairly high bar.

 

Not necessarily true, or rather possibly true for most Aes Sedai.  But that bar is entirely dependent on the mind of the individual Aes Sedai.  Some will be high or lower than others.  Similar to how in LoC,

Spoiler

while Rand had been captured and after he killed a couple of Warders.  All Aes Sedai present took turns punishing him but over the days/weeks some had to drop from doing it as to them it went beyond punishment while others were able to continue to keep it up.... Black Ajah sisters none withstanding.

Lord of Chaos spoilers.

[wotfan4472]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:11 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

This isn't true. I cannot remember what it says in tEotW, but in the tGH, Sheriam tells Egwene in paraphrasing that both are included in the Oaths. But in NS where we see the direct wording the Oaths there is no explicit mention of darkfriends at all. 

 

I can double check this this evening, but I really am convinced that this is the case (famous last words) and why there is so much confusion about it. 

The third Oath clearly states, word for word:

 

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defence of her life, the life of her Warder, or another sister.

 

As far as I can tell, all Oaths in the show are the same ones. What we saw Moriaine do in Falme in the show is consistent with her knowledge of two Forsaken being in the city.

Edited June 11 by wotfan4472

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Quote

Moiraine closed her hands around the Rod. It felt like glass, only somehow smoother. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will speak no word that is not true.” The Oath settled on her, and suddenly the air seemed to press harder against her skin. Red is white, she thought. Up is down. She could still think a lie, but her tongue would not work to utter it now. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will make no weapon for one man to kill another.” The pressure grew abruptly; it felt as though she had been sewn into an invisible garment, much too tight, that molded her from the crown of her head to the soles of her feet. To her chagrin, sweat popped out on her forehead, yet she managed to keep her face calm. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister.” That garment shrank to still greater snugness, and she breathed heavily through her nose, clamping her jaws to keep it from becoming a gasp. Invisible and utterly flexible, yet oh, so tight! This feeling that her flesh was being compressed would fade, but not entirely for a whole year. Light! She wondered how Elaida had enjoyed taking that last oath, with its mention of Warders. The Three Oaths remained unchanged whatever Ajah you intended to join. Thinking of that helped, a little.

This is taken from New Spring (p.93 of the pdf) directly - and your oath rather than being word for word you will notice says "her life", not "my life", as in, this is a a description of the oaths, not the oaths taken themselves. 

 

As I said in the Great Hunt it is stated, if not even before, by Sheriam to Egwene that darkfriends are included in the Oath, but when we see the actual wording, they aren't. The shows Oaths as given in the Wiki at least are the same except for "one man to kill another" becomes "one person", iirc.

Edited June 11 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[wotfan4472]

The implication, is that RJ decided after New Spring that darkfriends would be mentioned in the exemption, but was never outright spoken until Nyneave's full Oath taking.

 

He may have decided to show the change in the Oath is most likely an implication of the Black Ajah working to undermine the White Tower since their first appearance. Changing that particular Oath in that fashion would allow that kind of corruption.