Potential fix for the overpowered Moiraine issue:

[Shawlee]

29 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I just happened to listen to Nynaeve's testing for accepted today, and lo and behold

 

Also I appreciate you for doing this. ❤️❤️

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Just now, Shawlee said:

 

I know, I was just being a little shit, still kinda hurt by the fact that she of all people was one. I think I kinda feel like Egwene when it comes to the white tower. 🤔 

Yes, I know, and she wasn't even a good Dark Sister that was going to rule the world, Sheriam was just a petty lowlife that sold her soul to try and rise higher in the Tower than she had right to. I mean that is pretty low ambitions, and she is so ineffective.

 

Yet she was our Mistress of Novices, all so painful.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

 

Also I appreciate you for doing this. ❤️❤️

I just happened to be listening. I'm painting my flat (and other associated tasks) and I either listen to music or an audiobook. I did start a random book as it had an interesting cover, but it turned out to be some complicated vampire story (hence the young lady in skimpy leather with lots of weapons on the cover) and seemed ok, but the narrator gave all the characters really heavy Transylvanian accents (even though they seemed to be in Russia, which was odd) so I gave up and went back WoT.

 

But I am very happy that it was a relevant point for the discussion. It makes me feel very useful, lol. 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/31/2023 at 3:47 AM, Shawlee said:

 

 

At that distance? Also destroying multiple ships, and she made the Seanchen run? Not Rand Al'Thor ? Or the heroes of the horn? Really? 

My take on that scene was that a combination of everything mae them run, The heros, the ships blowing up, rand all of it. 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/31/2023 at 1:58 PM, Elgee said:

 

You are quite correct! I should maybe pay more attention to what people post and what I reply ... I'm a BAD Mother 🤪

 

The Three Oaths

    "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will speak no word that is not true."
    "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will make no weapon for one man to kill another."
    "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister."

Except we have yet to see the 3rd oath in the tv show. 

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

I know, I was just being a little shit, still kinda hurt by the fact that she of all people was one. I think I kinda feel like Egwene when it comes to the white tower. 🤔 

I don't know that whole thing was written so badly by BS that you don't get time for any of it to sink in or let you breathe. In part because it was all tied in with Egwene being put to trial and then dealt with in a few lines and Egwene moves on, we never see the emotional reaction from the characters so for me we never feel the emotions ourselves. Plus, it had been telegraphed pretty clearly with what was happening to her in the books. 

[SinisterDeath]

15 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

So I don't really know what that means. True, this is not a quote of the oaths but a paraphrasing, but unless to Sheriam (who surely isn't using her ability not to tell the truth on such a mundane point) thinks shadowspawn also covers darkfriends it does not make a lot of sense. Is it really an inconsistency, or is it some subtle difference in perception? It seems to vary too much to make sense either way.

That is definitely interesting, as the glossary makes no mention of Darkfriends, and when Moiraine takes the oath in New Spring she only uses the word shadowspawn.

[wotfan4472]

On 11/1/2023 at 1:33 AM, king of nowhere said:

 

My main objection to that scene is that moiraine was not in danger from the ship and should not have been able of using the power as a weapon, at all.

 

Going by what we have seen, the show has the same Oaths as the books. Moiraine acting in sinking the ship is doable, because she knows she is fighting the Shadow.

 

She knows both Ishamael and Lanfear are in Falme, so she can go all out to do whatever she needs to do, because their presence negates the sense of danger needed at other times. Since the Oath against force states the exceptions very clearly, then the show has it as well. We just have not seen it yet.

 

We know that show Moiraine knows far more about the Forsaken than book Moiraine did at this point. Book Moiraine would have done the same as in the show.

Edited March 11 by wotfan4472

[Samt]

39 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

 

She knows both Ishamael and Lanfear are in Falme, so she can go all out to do whatever she needs to do, because their presence negates the sense of danger needed at other times. Since the Oath against force states the exceptions very clearly, then the show has it as well. We just have not seen it yet.

The exception is shadowspawn.  Neither Lanfear, nor Ishamael, nor the Seanchan are shadowspawn and Moiraine does not know that any shadowspawn are present.  And if they were present, that would not be enough to allow using the power to attack non-shadowspawn, even if those allied directly with shadowspawn.  
 

 

[wotfan4472]

The Forsaken by default are leaders of the Shadow. Moiraine and the Aes Sedai are well aware of that fact.

 

Whether they are back or not is the major thrust of Aes Sedai politics, which Elaida will show, since she represents the majority view of the Aes Sedai that the Forsaken will never get out again. Because the key to that denial, is that they do not have the strength and knowledge to fight them.

 

To show the counterpoint to that, is that of the Aes Sedai on the side of the Light, only Moiraine, Siuan and Alanna know that one Forsaken for sure is out, and only Moiraine is aware two of them are. The bigger issue, is that no Aes Sedai except the Black Ajah know that ALL OF THEM are now free.

[Samt]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

The Forsaken by default are leaders of the Shadow. Moiraine and the Aes Sedai are well aware of that fact.

And yet, the forsaken are not shadowspawn.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

This is a point oft debated. I'm not sure why RJ left this ambiguity in. 

Iirc, in tEotW Moiraine first says the oath is only Shadowspawn. But in tGH already, Sheriam mentions Darkfriends in the oaths. So pretty much straight off the bat it is confused. And in NS, we have the actual wording that makes no mention of Darkfriends. Yet what about the Last Battle? The Aes Sedai could only attack actual Shadowspawn and not, for example, Dreadlords, even though that is what the Green Ajah was created to face? 

Darkfriends must be counted as Shadowspawn, yet why have that wording? I guess we will never know. 

[Skipp]

Does Moiraine not surprise attack Be'lal with balefire in tDR?  If the forsaken didn't count in the 3 oaths she wouldn't have been able to attack like that.

 

I might be mis-remembering the scene though.

Edited March 12 by Skipp
Changed tGH to tDR

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes, but there is always the wriggle room that by being so close to him she was in the last defense of her life - or that if Rand died then it would mean the death of the world. 

 

All the arguments that have been used about the boat in fact. It is just rather opaque.

[wotfan4472]

On 3/12/2024 at 8:44 AM, Samt said:

And yet, the forsaken are not shadowspawn.

The Forsaken are the Shadow's leaders. The shadowspawn follow their commands, and the darkfriends follow them too.

 

Moiraine knows that the Forsaken are in the list by default, since they command the two groups the Oath mentions.

 

They are the example the darkfriends all aspire to be. You saw Ishamael's talk to the little girl, and how he used the interaction with the Trolloc to influence her. The implication is that being a darkfriend has no age limit.

A little girl would do just fine as one, and expected to follow their oath of allegiance to the utmost as well.

 

Edited May 25 by wotfan4472

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

3 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The Forsaken are the Shadow's leaders. The shadowspawn follow their commands, and the darkfriends follow them too.

 

Moiraine knows that the Forsaken are in the list by default, since they command the two groups the Oath mentions.

 

They are the example the darkfriends all aspire to be. You saw Ishamael's talk to the little girl, and how he used the interaction with the Trolloc to influence her. The implication is that being a darkfriend has no age limit.

A little girl would do just fine as one, and expected to follow their oath of allegiance to the utmost as well.

 

That's is the way I have always seen it

[Samt]

4 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The Forsaken are the Shadow's leaders. The shadowspawn follow their commands, and the darkfriends follow them too.

 

Moiraine knows that the Forsaken are in the list by default, since they command the two groups the Oath mentions.

 

They are the example the darkfriends all aspire to be. You saw Ishamael's talk to the little girl, and how he used the interaction with the Trolloc to influence her. The implication is that being a darkfriend has no age limit.

A little girl would do just fine as one, and expected to follow their oath of allegiance to the utmost as well.

 

That isn’t how default works.  A critical characteristic of the oaths is that words matter.  The forsaken aren’t shadowspawn.  They don’t become shadowspawn by leading shadowspawn.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

15 hours ago, Samt said:

That isn’t how default works.  A critical characteristic of the oaths is that words matter.  The forsaken aren’t shadowspawn.  They don’t become shadowspawn by leading shadowspawn.

That is what makes it so difficult to follow. As you so rightly say, the oaths are all about the wording, not the spirit. Well, OK, the interpretation of the wording, but that is established repeatedly with Verin's hour of her death and Aes Sedai lying by ommission or implication. 

 

Yet the Green Ajah are clearly set up to fight the dreadlords at Tar'mon Gaiden, how could they possibly take an oath that prevents that and not notice? Aes Sedai repeatedly say that they can only attack Shadowspawn and darkfriends even though that is not the wording of the oath. 

 

I can only think that it relates to an older broader meaning of the word Shadowspawn. It seems weak, but surely Jordan noticed this as well, and he had plenty of time to correct it if he changed his mind at some point, like with the Aes Sedai's ageless look. 

[wotfan4472]

On 5/26/2024 at 6:37 AM, Samt said:

That isn’t how default works.  A critical characteristic of the oaths is that words matter.  The forsaken aren’t shadowspawn.  They don’t become shadowspawn by leading shadowspawn.

No. The Oath deals with Shadow sided elements. It lists the Shadowspawn and darkfriends.

 

At the end of the day, the Forsaken were Aes Sedai that defected to the Dark One, and became his leaders that speak directly for him, and take their orders directly from him, too.

 

They were called Forsaken, because they were trusted Aes Sedai that turned against the world, and are darkfriends that lead on the Dark One's behalf, that all made the conscious choice to turn.

 

Figures that darkfriends 3000 years later idolise as mythological heroes.

 

One was a world famous theologian and philosopher.    Ishamael.

One was a technological research scientist.                     Lanfear.

One was a world famous clinical psychologist.                Graendal.

One was a world famous doctor.                                        Semirhage.

One was a world famous athlete.                                       Sammael.

One was a historian.                                                             Balthamel.

One was a musical celebrity.                                              Asmodean.

One was a teacher.                                                               Mesaana.

One was a lawyer.                                                                 Be'lal.

One was a banker.                                                                Moghedien.

One was a biological research scientist.                           Aginor.

One was a politician.                                                           Rahvin.

One was a world famous diplomat.                                   Demandred.

 

 

All of them Aes Sedai from the Age Of Legends.  All of them turned, because they wanted more than the world could give them.

 

 

The Shadowspawn are not naturally evolved life forms. They were all built, except for the Fades. They are born of Trollocs.  They were made by Aginor after his turn, using human beings and animals in genetic experiments. These are not good people.

They are the sort of people even Joker would hate.

Edited May 26 by wotfan4472

[Samt]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

No. The Oath deals with Shadow sided elements. It lists the Shadowspawn and darkfriends.

 

At the end of the day, the Forsaken were Aes Sedai that defected to the Dark One, and became his leaders that speak directly for him, and take their orders directly from him, too.

 

They were called Forsaken, because they were trusted Aes Sedai that turned against the world, and are darkfriends that lead on the Dark One's behalf, that all made the conscious choice to turn.

 

Figures that darkfriends 3000 years later idolise as mythological heroes.

 

One was a world famous theologian and philosopher.    Ishamael.

One was a technological research scientist.                     Lanfear.

One was a world famous clinical psychologist.                Graendal.

One was a world famous doctor.                                        Semirhage.

One was a world famous athlete.                                       Sammael.

One was a historian.                                                             Balthamel.

One was a musical celebrity.                                              Asmodean.

One was a teacher.                                                               Mesaana.

One was a lawyer.                                                                 Be'lal.

One was a banker.                                                                Moghedien.

One was a biological research scientist.                           Aginor.

One was a politician.                                                           Rahvin.

One was a world famous diplomat.                                   Demandred.

 

 

All of them Aes Sedai from the Age Of Legends.  All of them turned, because they wanted more than the world could give them.

 

 

The Shadowspawn are not naturally evolved life forms. They were all built, except for the Fades. They are born of Trollocs.  They were made by Aginor after his turn, using human beings and animals in genetic experiments. These are not good people.

They are the sort of people even Joker would hate.

See that’s the question.  Is the oath shadowspawn and darkfriends? Or just shadowspawn.  The forsaken are dark friends all day.  But if the oath only says shadowspawn, it doesn’t include forsaken or other dreadlords.

 

In regards to the green, they can conceivably participate in the last battle by killing shadowspawn and using protective weaves.  Killing dreadlords would not be the only conceivable way to participate.

[Mailman]

On 3/13/2024 at 7:55 AM, Skipp said:

Does Moiraine not surprise attack Be'lal with balefire in tDR?  If the forsaken didn't count in the 3 oaths she wouldn't have been able to attack like that.

 

I might be mis-remembering the scene though.

Incorrect.

 

"I thought you were neatly out of the way,"

referencing an attack already made by Be'lal towards Moiraine could be enough to allow an attack.

 

and then more importantly

 

"he finished with a contemptuous laugh, and raised his free hand.

 

Moiraine had not stopped or slowed while he spoke. She was no more than thirty paces from him when he moved his hand,"

 

Be"lal makes an offensive movement towards Moiraine first.

 

I would also argue that an unshielded forsaken being in sight or range of an Aes Sedai is enough to trigger any self-defence use of the oaths.

Edited May 27 by Mailman

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:23 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

o pretty much straight off the bat it is confused. And in NS, we have the actual wording that makes no mention of Darkfriends. Yet what about the Last Battle? The Aes Sedai could only attack actual Shadowspawn and not, for example, Dreadlords, even though that is what the Green Ajah was created to face? 

Any use of a weapon against an opposing combatant in outright warfare (other than those already inacapacitated/surrendering) is considered permissible and the tower is automatically considered to be at war with the shadow (hence no need for a formal declaration and invocation of the law of war - unlike the declaration against Elaida).  Therefore by extension any use of the one power as a weapon in warfare (including against any forsaken or identified darkfriend) could be considered to come under the "last defense of life" provision in the oaths, by tower law or established custom - as long as the sister believes that to be the meaning that is what the rod will enforce.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

25 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Any use of a weapon against an opposing combatant in outright warfare (other than those already inacapacitated/surrendering) is considered permissible and the tower is automatically considered to be at war with the shadow (hence no need for a formal declaration and invocation of the law of war - unlike the declaration against Elaida).  Therefore by extension any use of the one power as a weapon in warfare (including against any forsaken or identified darkfriend) could be considered to come under the "last defense of life" provision in the oaths, by tower law or established custom - as long as the sister believes that to be the meaning that is what the rod will enforce.

That seems a pretty big leap. In the last defense of your life, your warder or that of another sister does not seem to have a lot of wriggle room to include anyone at war with the Tower. It even explicitly prevents saving the life of another Aes Sedai's warder. And why specifically mention Shadowspawn if all manner of things including them are implied by the final part? 

 

Where did you get this information? Would be interesting to have a look at it. 

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Any use of a weapon against an opposing combatant in outright warfare (other than those already inacapacitated/surrendering) is considered permissible and the tower is automatically considered to be at war with the shadow (hence no need for a formal declaration and invocation of the law of war - unlike the declaration against Elaida).  Therefore by extension any use of the one power as a weapon in warfare (including against any forsaken or identified darkfriend) could be considered to come under the "last defense of life" provision in the oaths, by tower law or established custom - as long as the sister believes that to be the meaning that is what the rod will enforce.

Dumai Wells would disagree with that. Kira and the other tower Aes Sedai had to actually feel threatened before they could bring the One Power to bear in the combat.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

17 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Where did you get this information? Would be interesting to have a look at it. 

In one of the closing books Egwene agrees with the Sitters that there is no need to apply the law of war to the preparations for the last battle because the tower is automatically at war with the shadow.