WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[RextheDog]

22 hours ago, melegant said:

In the show, how did anyone see what was happening on top of that tower? Rand just pops his head up and everyone is like 'Hail the Dragon'?

 

to be fair, you could also frame this a brilliant framing from the showrunners....even though i can see you are not in the mood to concede such ground.

 

Rands grip on authority was ever so fickle.

 

in book form you can flesh it out....in show form, leaving such doubts out there as ' well not many people actually saw it happen' could be seen as good production. 

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Thank you. 
Egwene was not the main character of S2. She had the most emotionally impactful arc. But that doesn’t mean that the other characters - including Rand - did not have impactful arcs. 
 

Egwene will probably not get much to do in S3. Training with the Wise Ones will probably yield roughly the same screen time as Mat. 

And egwenes arc in the books is probably the most impactful long term arc of ay other character, I don't know any other WOT character (including Rand) who is as affected long term by a single event that happens to them as much as Egwenes time in the collar impacts her and decisions she makes right the way through the story. 

[Scarloc99]

Just now, RextheDog said:

 

to be fair, you could also frame this a brilliant framing from the showrunners....even though i can see you are not in the mood to concede such ground.

 

Rands grip on authority was ever so fickle.

 

in book form you can flesh it out....in show form, leaving such doubts out there as ' well not many people actually saw it happen' could be seen as good production. 

I means Rand declaration as the dragon in the books was so good Robert Jordan had him do it 3 times 🙂 

[DreadLord31]

23 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

This insistance that Egwene is the main character is getting old lol, the idea Rafe wanted her to be Dragon, it is verging on offensive towards the idea that a show can have well developed female characters, who don't in fact "steal" from the male moment. Rand saved Egwene from death, that is the fact of this scene, no Rand here then they are all dead, how much more powerful and heroic do you need to see Rand be in this moment. He stands down a Foresaken, while still untrained, and absolutely owns him. he took out about 20-30 seanchan with a flick of his wrist, again untrained, we have not seen a single Aes Sedai do that the most we have seen Egwene do is a big wind blast and some fire balls, I mean all we have seen anyone do really is fireballs (including Lanfer). 

 

People need to break out of the echo chamber and actually watch the show that is on TV in front of them and see the facts as they are. Yes you can question writing and editorial choices, but we are verging on just mistruths being paraded as facts and then wrapped up in a narrative for which there is no evidence. 

It is brought up again this time because it’s not just one opinion - this time there’s support from BS who is listed as a co-producer - that the writing is bad. 
 

So you can have your opinion - which is not supported by one of the foremost experts in the WoT (the person chosen to finish RJ’s work). And I can have my opinion that it’s mostly, poorly written - which is backed by Brandon Sanderson. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DreadLord31 said:

And I can have my opinion that it’s mostly, poorly written - which is backed by Brandon Sanderson. 

He didn’t say that it was “mostly poorly written.”

[Scarloc99]

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

It is brought up again this time because it’s not just one opinion - this time there’s support from BS who is listed as a co-producer - that the writing is bad. 
 

So you can have your opinion - which is not supported by one of the foremost experts in the WoT (the person chosen to finish RJ’s work). And I can have my opinion that it’s mostly, poorly written - which is backed by Brandon Sanderson. 

Yes Brandon was chosen to finish the work, doesn't mean he did a good job, this forum is full of people who didn't like the final 3 books. BS also has come out, just hours after that on reddit and praised the show as excellent and the writers as doing a fantastic job. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Scarloc99 said:

Yes Brandon was chosen to finish the work, doesn't mean he did a good job, this forum is full of people who didn't like the final 3 books. BS also has come out, just hours after that on reddit and praised the show as excellent and the writers as doing a fantastic job, so he might want to pick a lane. 

Criticism is not the same as thinking something is bad.
 

I also think Brandon’s manner of speaking makes it seem like he dislikes things more than he really does. 

[Scarloc99]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Criticism is not the same as thinking something is bad.
 

I also think Brandon’s manner of speaking makes it seem like he dislikes things more than he really does. 

I also accept my personal dislike for BS writing is coming through a bit here (migh tnot have noticed that lol) is why I removed the pick a lane comment, it was, hasty, :). But I do think that brandon is well aware what things like that watch along will do, and I think he is trying to get clicks and likes from a set of the fans that he knows will go chasing after the dog whistle a bit and get that clip lots of views. 

 

[king of nowhere]

38 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I also accept my personal dislike for BS writing is coming through a bit here (migh tnot have noticed that lol) is why I removed the pick a lane comment, it was, hasty, :). But I do think that brandon is well aware what things like that watch along will do, and I think he is trying to get clicks and likes from a set of the fans that he knows will go chasing after the dog whistle a bit and get that clip lots of views. 

 

Please! Sanderson does not need to chase likes on social media like a wannabe influencer. He already has a job, a source of notoriety. More important, he's got more integrity than that.

 

And in fact, his comments are balanced. He always points out both the good and the bad. Those that are trying to use him to justify extreme opinions clearly are wilfully ignoring half of what he says. 

[fra85uk]

If BS goes on criticizing, I bet some of the more hardcore showcloaks will argue that probably RJ should have chosen Rafe to end WoT books.

[DreadLord31]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Please! Sanderson does not need to chase likes on social media like a wannabe influencer. He already has a job, a source of notoriety. More important, he's got more integrity than that.

 

And in fact, his comments are balanced. He always points out both the good and the bad. Those that are trying to use him to justify extreme opinions clearly are wilfully ignoring half of what he says. 

I wouldn’t say his comments about the writing are balanced; but I would say overall he does share opinions both good and bad about the show. And I feel the same way. 
 

The acting is superb. The directing - they are getting the most out of the actors. The CGI was much, much better than S1. 
 

As Tv, it’s pretty darn good - I think BS said he thought S2 of WoT was better than RoP (and I totally agree!) 

 

What BS says about the writing though was something like “I know it’s not everyone, but for me, I can’t enjoy something unless there is set-up and pay-off … and the show isn’t doing that.” Yes, yes, I know he didn’t say those exact words. But watch the Dusty Wheel Episode of his watch through with Matt Hatch and Daniel Greene. That is the spirit/gist of what he said! 
 

I also thought it was quite interesting to see the three of them disagree about how Taverene works, about how SL dagger works, and about bad-guys not doing obvious things to easily win. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

When it comes to the show - I feel like Gollum. I both love and hate the show. I love it because it’s the WoT & characters that I’ve enjoyed for 20 years are on screen. I want it to succeed because it’s WoT & because then other awesome Fantasy series could be made or remade too. 
 

I hate it because they do stuff that I think are terrible choices & because they do stuff that is not my “head cannon”. I hate it because these are characters that I’ve thought about and loved for 20 years & I feel like they’re not doing them justice (in the writing, not the acting). 
 

And what I enjoy about this forum is that you see all of that - people who love and hate it (for reasons similar to what I said). And so far, anyways, the Mods let us have our “negative” opinions & don’t kabosh everything that isn’t “glowing reviews”. 
 

But I will say this … S2 was much better than S1 & if S3 can be much better than S2 — then 2 years from now, or whatever it is, I’ll be on here saying, “See, I told you WoT Tv is awesome writing!” 😂 

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

I wouldn’t say his comments about the writing are balanced; but I would say overall he does share opinions both good and bad about the show. And I feel the same way. 
 

The acting is superb. The directing - they are getting the most out of the actors. The CGI was much, much better than S1. 
 

As Tv, it’s pretty darn good - I think BS said he thought S2 of WoT was better than RoP (and I totally agree!) 

 

What BS says about the writing though was something like “I know it’s not everyone, but for me, I can’t enjoy something unless there is set-up and pay-off … and the show isn’t doing that.” Yes, yes, I know he didn’t say those exact words. But watch the Dusty Wheel Episode of his watch through with Matt Hatch and Daniel Greene. That is the spirit/gist of what he said! 
 

I also thought it was quite interesting to see the three of them disagree about how Taverene works, about how SL dagger works, and about bad-guys not doing obvious things to easily win. 

I think this is a good summary of how I interpreted Brandon's comments on the series, if you expand it to include their debate around Moiraine and the Oaths. 

 

I think WoT S2 was decent television (I haven't / won't watch RoP so can't compare, but it was better than GoT8), I think Season 2 is light years ahead of Season 1, and that the writing team did get better at internal consistency. They're still not good at it, but they did get better.  Hopefully with 3 relatively straight forward plots next season, they are able to take the time to set things up and pay them off more effectively.

 

Also, from a certain point of view, if they show that Egwene is doing everything on her own, her outcome could be considered a payoff to that. But the thing with Theme that I think Brandon is missing is it's the most subtle part of an artistic work to develop, and as an author, he has months (most authors have years) to ensure the theme is consistently developed across the length of the story. But script writers don't. I honestly can't think of any TV (aside from maybe Breaking Bad and the Sopranos (as you sow, so shall you reap), and Sons of Anarchy (cough, Hamlet, cough) where complex overarching themes were successfully applied

 

So of the two, from an enjoyment perspective, I think it much more important that they fix the internal consistency issue first, and worry about the overarching theme later, since Rand still has the entire stone versus steel arc to go through.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think this is a good summary of how I interpreted Brandon's comments on the series, if you expand it to include their debate around Moiraine and the Oaths. 

 

I think WoT S2 was decent television (I haven't / won't watch RoP so can't compare, but it was better than GoT8), I think Season 2 is light years ahead of Season 1, and that the writing team did get better at internal consistency. They're still not good at it, but they did get better.  Hopefully with 3 relatively straight forward plots next season, they are able to take the time to set things up and pay them off more effectively.

 

Also, from a certain point of view, if they show that Egwene is doing everything on her own, her outcome could be considered a payoff to that. But the thing with Theme that I think Brandon is missing is it's the most subtle part of an artistic work to develop, and as an author, he has months (most authors have years) to ensure the theme is consistently developed across the length of the story. But script writers don't. I honestly can't think of any TV (aside from maybe Breaking Bad and the Sopranos (as you sow, so shall you reap), and Sons of Anarchy (cough, Hamlet, cough) where complex overarching themes were successfully applied

 

So of the two, from an enjoyment perspective, I think it much more important that they fix the internal consistency issue first, and worry about the overarching theme later, since Rand still has the entire stone versus steel arc to go through.

So first of all, there is no GOT S8, let us never hear that said again (for that matter there is no season 6 or 7 either), on a serious note the one thing I say about GOT is that it stopped becoming an adaptation because there was no source material and the show runners made an active decision to ignore the author and his ideas, and also got bored and ignored the TV companies offer for more episodes and a longer run time. And as george RR Martin has stated the show runners would go online and purposely find the top 10 fan theories, and then write the next bit of the story so that they would all be wrong. Ohhh you think Jon Snow is killing the night king do you, well lets show you, you think that anyone other then Bran will end up as the king, ok you fools, you think we are going to make an amazing final 2 seasons, well now we will make sure we don't just to prove you all wrong. 

 

In terms of long storylines paying off, the obvious and best one is Babylon 5, where J. Michael Straczynski planted seeds in the pilot that he intended to pay off in season 3 and 4, he also, in a move I don't think any other writer has done, set everything up so that every character had a back up one in case something happened and an actor had to leave. So he made sure there where side characters and additional characters that could easily be placed into the story and all the foreshadowing would still make perfect sense. If you have never seen it then really check it out, there are some beautifully created moments especially between 2 alien characters. 

 

I would have said the new Battle Star Galactica but Ronald D More admitted that he wrote that season to season usually not knowing what the payoff to his secrets would be until he got to writing them. Amd then of course there is Lost 🙂 

 

 

[Irvyne]

Wow. When the script consultant and series author watches the show and cringes in frustration in the same way I do when I watch it, at least I know I'm not alone.

"I tried, guys. I really tried."

Can you believe the arrogance of these people? The author who was chosen to write the final three books of the series is telling you that you have story issues, and here are some ideas on how to solve them. And you just say, "Nah. We're better at this than you."

I can't even...

[Elder_Haman]

47 minutes ago, Irvyne said:

The author who was chosen to write the final three books of the series is telling you that you have story issues, and here are some ideas on how to solve them. And you just say, "Nah. We're better at this than you."

I can't even...

Has Brando Sando ever written tv scripts? 
 

He may be an expert on WoT and it’s lore, but that doesn’t mean he is the ultimate arbiter of what would make a good tv script. 

[DreadLord31]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Has Brando Sando ever written tv scripts? 
 

He may be an expert on WoT and it’s lore, but that doesn’t mean he is the ultimate arbiter of what would make a good tv script. 

Yes, but if they had listened to him (I’m convinced anyways) it would have been better. For example, don’t give Perrin a wife and the fridge her and then just move past it like it never happened in S2. And…don’t have Egwene free herself, a huge theme of WoT is that you can’t win alone, you need each other. And… you don’t give Lan anything to do. And…you can’t spend a full episode worth of time on Moiraine’s family if there’s no pay off on it & if it takes away from the set-up of other characters. And … If you break the very clear and laid down Metaphysical rules of RJ’s world you’re going to end up in a mess real quick. And… no, no, no - Matt can’t make the Ashandari out of the SL dagger and then just carry it around & then just have it do whatever you need it to in the moment … And … 

It would be a much better show if they listened to Brandon.

 

Though - it’s apparently his fault that Uno is a hero of the horn? So I could definitely be wrong … 

[king of nowhere]

29 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Though - it’s apparently his fault that Uno is a hero of the horn? So I could definitely be wrong … 

accidentally. he didn't suggest it directly.

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, Irvyne said:

Wow. When the script consultant and series author watches the show and cringes in frustration in the same way I do when I watch it, at least I know I'm not alone.

"I tried, guys. I really tried."

Can you believe the arrogance of these people? The author who was chosen to write the final three books of the series is telling you that you have story issues, and here are some ideas on how to solve them. And you just say, "Nah. We're better at this than you."

I can't even...

From the start Rafe Jennings and crew thought they were better writers, better storytellers, and overall more clever than Robert Jordan.  It shouldn’t surprise you that the feel the same about Jordan’s successor.  And people here and elsewhere buy it and find ways to put the books down in order to elevate the show.

[DreadLord31]

22 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

accidentally. he didn't suggest it directly.

correct. He was ticked that they killed a character that he purposefully kept alive the entire time - and they rewarded his criticism with yet another “fake-out death” lol

[Mirefox]

Brandon Sanderson himself comments “Why is Rand even there?  Just give Egwene a sword,” yet when we complain that for the second finale in a row they stole a scene from Rand to give to the girls we are called sexiest for noticing…

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

From the start Rafe Jennings and crew thought they were better writers, better storytellers, and overall more clever than Robert Jordan.  It shouldn’t surprise you that the feel the same about Jordan’s successor.  And people here and elsewhere buy it and find ways to put the books down in order to elevate the show.

Who is putting the books down to elevate the show? Acknowledging that the books aren’t perfect is not “putting them down”. 
 

and there is literally zero evidence supporting your assertion that Rafe “thinks he is a better writer, better storyteller and overall more clever” than RJ. 

 

The books and the show are different things. The fact that the showrunner, rightly or wrongly, believes he needs to change the material to make it more filmable does not mean he thinks he is the superior talent.

 

The hatred for Rafe is ridiculous. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

Brandon Sanderson himself comments “Why is Rand even there?  Just give Egwene a sword,” yet when we complain that for the second finale in a row they stole a scene from Rand to give to the girls we are called sexiest for noticing…

No one called you sexist. People pushed back on the notion that the show is misandrist. Not the same. 

[DreadLord31]

You know, actually my problem with the writing is that it’s so inconsistent in its quality … 

 

Some of it is actually very good; but it tends to be the parts where they’re not adapting & can just do their own stuff that is not WoT (and that makes me particularly sad because it tells me that some of the main writers do NOT actually love the books - and has been said - really do believe they know better than RJ and BS). For example: the Moiraine & her family stuff was actually written pretty well - it’s just “new” content. All the villains (except Fain) have been brilliant. Liandrin has more development and backstory than Rand. Lanfear is the star of this season. Ishy was brilliant. Moggy was the perfect way to end things. 
 

It’s just painful though what they’ve done writing wise with Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Lan. So I hope that S3 gives more development & cool moments to the main characters of WoT. And I think they will… because I’m hopeful! And because S3 is supposedly a closer adaptation of book 4! 

 

[DreadLord31]

I mean, seriously think about that as an adaptation choice … Liandrin has more backstory & probably equal screen-time through the first two seasons with Mat, Perrin, and Rand. And has definitely outshined all three in acting out what she has been given. Even if Liandrin is replacing Alviarian … think about that. Seriously. If you are a lover of the books & unquestioning defender of the show. Think about that.